MEMORY LANE


Category 75, Topic 17
Message 487 Wed Jun 26, 1991
ISD [Nathan] at 12:38 EDT

Check out the post in cat 26, topic 2. You have to read it to believe it. :-)
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Category 75, Topic 17
Message 488 Wed Jun 26, 1991
C.F.JOHNSON [CodeHead] at 12:40 EDT

Nathan,

I download ST Report _very_ infrequently; usually only to check to make sure
he's printed one of our press releases accurately, or if there's some stupid
overblown "controversy," to see what the latest furor is about. And I never
post messages in either Znet's or ST Report's category.

The reality is that ST Report does provide a means of valuable free
publicity to developers. A lot of "ordinary" (meaning "non-developer") folks

do read ST Report. Since there are very few other Atari magazines left at
all, ST Report and Znet are quickly becoming the _last_ venues for reaching a
large audience with a product announcement. That's _really_depressing_, but
it's a fact.

No, I don't think you're an idiot. But I also don't think anything or
anyone is served by trying to hound Ralph into giving up ST Report, either,
because 1) it won't work, and 2) as developers, we need the damned thing for
publicity purposes.
Insert big sigh here.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Opinion time: I think what we're seeing here is the Atari world eating
itself, tail-first. Unfortunately, I believe some of the developers in the
IAAD are partially responsible for this self-ingestion, too -- the recent
trend on the part of some of our members to release "free" utilities is a
disturbing part of it. I brought this up once before, and everyone said I was
overreacting, but here it is again:

Have you folks at Double Click (with your "programs of the week") and
Gribnif (with your "Colaware") really thought about what you're doing to the
market by releasing free programs on a regular basis?

 Recently, I've received a couple of Email letters saying essentially, "Why
should I _pay_ for Funk Alert when I can just wait a few weeks for DC to
release a free program that does the same thing?" (Now am I still
overreacting?)

By doing these free programs, you are:

a) helping to destroy people's perception of software value. You're
instilling the belief in the userbase that it's _easy_ to write these kinds of
programs. From there, it's a short step to the conclusion that "hey, if it's
that easy for DC, then all these other people must be ripping us off!" From
my Email, some people have _already_ reached this conclusion.

b) helping to destroy the last vestiges of the commercial market. See point
A, above.

c) also destroying the last vestiges of the ST shareware market.

Far be it from me to tell anyone how to run their business. If you want to
destroy the value of your own commercial software, that's your look-out. But
when it starts affecting _my_ business (which it has), then I get mad.

I hope you guys will give this some serious thought. I honestly believe
that free programs that perform useful functions are helping to hasten The
End.

- Charles

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Category 75, To
pic 17
Message 490 Wed Jun 26, 1991
WORDFLAIR [Lauren] at 21:05 EDT

I think we've downloaded ST Report only 2 or 3 times. By all means use it as
a press release vehicle. Just be careful talking to Ralph he is an absolute
genius about asking leading questions. Never doubt his intelligence and
tremendous desire to get a scoop/"dirt." Do give him product/company news.
You dig your own grave with gossip or confidential info though.

The whole nature of online "journalism" is to bring timely info. Seems like
there are many more downloads when the info is controversial or negative. I'd
bet more Enquirers, Stars, etc. type papers sell than the New York Times or
Christian Science Monitor so muckraking is certainly not limited to on-line
vehicles. But if downloads are his measure of success, looking at it from his
view, he does better printing total bs if it's got a good "hook."

Random thoughts.. Lauren
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Category 75, Topic 17
Message 491 Wed Jun 26, 1991

J.TRAUTSCHOL [jtrautschold] at 22:15 EDT

I *don't* regularly download ST Report. I don't even "belong" to his Cat.
here on GEnie. Everytime I *do* end up reading one of his "Reports" I end up
chastising myself for wasting the download time (except of course when he ran
my press release! :-)

I've never talked to Ralph on the phone and he's never tried to call me. I'm
not even sure if he knows I'm an IAAD member (although if he's reading these
messages I guess he would know.)

I did get a few sales out of his publication, but his bashing of just about
everything certainly doesn't do us any good. Hey Ralph, if you're reading
this, lighten up, will ya? We're all here to see Atari succeed, aren't we?
Sheese!

John T.

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Category 75, Topic 17
Message 49
2 Thu Jun 27, 1991
C.WALNUM1 [CLAY] at 00:34 EDT

Nathan: I agree with Charles about ST Report. Fact is, my first sales of C-MANSHIP COMPLETE came from my press release in ST Report. I don't always agree
with the way Ralph does things, but there's no doubt that thousands of people
read him. These days we need all the publicity we can get. On the other
hand, he sure knows how to push _your_ buttons! <GRIN> I for one vowed a
while ago that I will no longer argue with Ralph in a public forum. We had
some nasty rounds a while back, and
I found it most embarrassing.

Charles: As you undoubtedly know, most people think shareware programs are
free, too. So that market is already destroyed. My new game DEMOLITION MAN
is the #1 download on another system and has been doing great here on GEnie
too--and I haven't seen one thin dime. Luckily, I didn't write it for the
money.

Lauren: I've heard that the NATIONAL ENQUIRER is the #1 selling newspaper in
the U.S. No doubt, the other tabloids aren't far behind.

---Clay
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Category 75, Topic 17
Message 493 Thu Jun 27, 1991
WUZTEK.OPI [Paul Wu] at 02:58 EDT

The only time I read ST Report was to find the review of my product Ralph said
he had published. He requested a OMNIMON Rainbow monitor for review purposes
many months back and when I didn't hear from him, I looked all over for the
article. I finally found a review of the OMNIMON Rainbow monitor but it was
done by a customer who had bought the monitor a long time ago.
The review was quite favorable but I suspect that not very many people read
ST Report since I have not found a customer that has stated ST Report as where
they hear about our product (questionaire in our warranty card.)

Paul Wu
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Category 75, Topic 17
Message 494 Thu Jun 27, 1991
CRAIG.S.THOM at 21:14 EDT

I've only talked to Ralph on the phone once, and he did most of the
talking. He used the F word a lot, too.
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Category 75, Topic 17
Message 495 Thu Jun 27, 1991
D.THOMPSON66 [David @ JMG] at 21:14 EDT

Nathan et al

I've never read ST Report. When George was helping me set up Aladin he said
to ignore that area! Hmmmm.... I wonder why? After listening to the
arguments over the weekend I was pretty sure why!

Anyways, my brief point in answering is that a customer walked into our retail
store today and said that they had heard good things about HyperLINK in ST
Report. Not knowing what the hell had been said, I find myself as a developer
having to pay attention to it as a source for feedback.

-djt

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Category 75, Topic 17
Message 496 Thu Jun 27, 1991
ISD [Nathan] at 22:33 EDT

David, USE ST Report to spread the good word about your products. That's what
justifies their existence. Same goes for ZNET and GEnie Lamp. Personally I
made a mistake last week. I forgot that people like Ralph Mariano, Lloyd
Pulley and Bill Ryal are best dealt with by ignoring them totally, to a point.
Stay tuned. :-)
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Category 75, Topic 17
Message 497 Thu Jun 27, 1991
W.PARKS3 [Dr. Bob] at 23:07 EDT

Well, I for one would not want to see Ralph or ST Report disappear. For the
exact same reasons many people don't want anything to happen to George Bush ;)

Bye: Dr. Bob
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Category 75, Topic 17
Message 498 Fri
Jun 28, 1991
J.PIERSTORFF [J.PIERSTORFF] at 02:45 EDT

I think it is to the credit of ST owners that so many will download ST Report
and wade through so much drivel to try and glean any useful Atari related
information. Obviously 300+ people find it worth trying every week.

It is too bad that most people think Ralph's reporting is accurate. It is also
sad that Ralph's ethics are so low that he would accept stolen transcripts of
this private category. He must realize that if we wanted him to know what is
said here he would be included! I believe that his doom & gloom reports have
with time, and repeated exposure, seriously damaged the Atari market! His
constant criticism of Atari warns users to "abandon ship!" get out while you
can, andhave to read it to believe it. :-)
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Category 75, Topic 17
Message 509 Sat Jun 29, 1991
NEVIN-S at 01:11 EDT

Nathan, that is a tough one. Part of me feels that you should call the person
and if you feel the person is indeed passing on captures, lock him/her out of
this cat. Part of me feels that without proof you should not do
anything.
Personally, I think when you ask the offender, he/she will not really deny it,
but will say, "I just have a different opinion about the importance of
confidentiality...." At that point, I would lock him/her out immediately.

If he/she denies it, then you've got another tough situation.

Also, if there is anything I can do to balance whatever BS is going with
Ralph's apparent work against you and Darlah, let me know.

--Nevin
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Category 75, Topic 17
Message 510 Sat Jun 29, 1991
C.WALNUM1 [CLAY] at 01:39 EDT

Nathan: I think it's a rotten shame that the messages here are getting sent
where they don't belong. And whoever is doing it should be disallowed access
to the topic--but _never_ based solely on suspicions. I think that would be
the classic case of two wrongs trying to make a right. If people start
getting tossed out of the IAAD for unsubstantiated reasons, it would look very
bad for the organization.

Now, if you're 99% sure...

---Clay

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Category 75, Topic 17
Message 511 Sat Jun 29, 1991
J.ALLEN27
at 03:12 EDT

If you're sure enough Nathan, use the axe.

If you choose to make a public fight of it, you know you have my support. When
Ralph called me yesterday morning he made some noise about Darlah, I made it
clear he was taking on the wrong battle, this really is a case of Ralph's dead
wrong and needs to cool his jets...or what will be will be.
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Category 75, Topic 17
Message 512 Sat Jun 29, 1991
G.RICHARDSO1 [George] at 08:30 EDT

I think that unless you've got enough evidence to be reasonably sure, locking
someone out is just going to disrupt the IAAD again.

I really think that it's Ralph who's the problem here and even catching
whoever seems to be passing him info is not going to end it. He may just coax
someone else into doing the same.

I'd really like to see the IAAD take some action against Ralph though. The
problem is that I get the feeling that this is exactly what Ralph wants. After
the IAAD responds in any way, He'll claim that either we're ganging up on him
or he must be getting close to the truth or we wouldn't bother. He'll
certainly feel justified.

George Richardson
Merlin Group, Inc.
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Category 75, Topic 17
Message 513 Sat Jun 29, 1991

D.A.BRUMLEVE [kidprgs] at 10:31 EDT

I have decided to place my objections to ST Report's tactics only in
public where they can enlighten all users rather than in here where they
are of use only to IAAD members -- and, oh, yes, you, too, Ralph.
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Category 75, Topic 17
Message 514 Sat Jun 29, 1991
J.EIDSVOOG1 [CodeHead] at 11:17 EDT

Mike,

Please refrain from stating "you [CodeHead] made your decision to leave the
Atari market", either here or in public! We have NEVER said this to _anyone_,
either publicly or privately. I don't know where you got that idea. We have
mentioned that we are examining other platforms, but we've always made it a
point to say, in the same breath, that we will always continue to support our
ST products.

John

P.S. Since you started your free-program policy, we've corrected people
several times on our BBS who have said that Double Click Software is free.

This seems to be a common symptom of your "irrevocable decision". <donning my
kid gloves>

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Category 75, Topic 17
Message 533 Tue Jul 02, 1991
N.WEINRESS at 01:27 EDT

We must remember that access to this group is by invitation _only_. And
whoever is leaking to Ralph may leak to others. Having Ralph blab things of
general interest is bad enough, but the leaker can pass special info, of
interest to competition, to the competition. It won't show up in ST Reports,
but it can do harm.
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Category 75, Topic 17
Message 534 Tue Jul 02, 1991
ISD [Nathan] at 09:37 EDT

Would someone care to draft a new IAAD acceptance as a member agreement, heavy
on the non-disclosure aspect? I'd really appreciate it. Then everyone loses
their access for a few days and are let back in one by one as they sign and
return this new agreement. I like that. This way we have clear cut options, no
possibility of a misunderstanding and we waste far less time. And just maybe,
we'll lose a few members who will refuse to sign it and thats fine with me
too since it will really solve a few problems painlessly. So WHO VOLUNTEERS??
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Category 75, Topic 17
Message 535 Tue Jul 02, 1991
W.PARKS3 [Dr. Bob] at
14:12 EDT

I volunteer Dorothy! ;-)

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Category 75, Topic 17
Message 536 Tue Jul 02, 1991
D.A.BRUMLEVE [kidprgs] at 14:46 EDT

If nominated, I will not run...If elected I will not serve. In fact,
an effort in this direction was made about a year ago. A "loyalty oath"
of sorts was constructed and all members were asked to GEMail their
"signature". Though I do not have the rlah, I made it
clear he was taking on the wrong battle, this really is a case of Ralph's dea
wrong and needs to cool his jets...or what will be will be.
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Category 75, Topic 17
Message 512 Sat Jun 29, 1991
G.RICHARDSO1 [George] at 08:30 EDT

I think that unless you've got enough evidence to be reasonably sure, locking
someone out is just going to disrupt the IAAD again.

I really think that it's Ralph who's the problem here and even catching
whoever seems to be passing him info is not going to end it. He may just coax
someone else into doing the same.

I'd really like to see the IAAD take some action against Ralph though. The
problem is that I get the feeling that this is exactly what Ralph wants. After
the IAAD responds in any way, He'll claim that either we're ganging up on him
or he must be getting close to the truth or we wouldn't bother. He'll
certainly feel justified.

George Richardson
Merlin Group, Inc.
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Category 75, Topic 17
Message 513 Sat Jun 29, 1991

D.A.BRUMLEVE [kidprgs] at 10:31 EDT

I have decided to place my objections to ST Report's tactics only in
public where they can enlighten all users rather than in here where they
are of use only to IAAD members -- and, oh, yes, you, too, Ralph.
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Category 75, Topic 17
Message 565 Sun Jul 07, 1991
C.F.JOHNSON [CodeHead] at 02:12 EDT

By the way, folks....I hate to have to say this, but the time has come.

Unless the leak is plugged, and soon, I will not be posting anything else in
this category, and I will delete all my existing messages .... and I urge
anyone else who cares about possible repercussions to do the same
We're all being compromised by whoever is leaking information to
Ralph Mariano and Lloyd Pulley, and things have the potential to get VERY ugly.
The IAAD has NO FUTURE if this continues. Period.

I don't know if this has ever come out before, but a few months back someone
also sent captures of the messages in this area to Bob Brodie at Atari. This
is not speculation, it's cold fact; someone among us is slime. And I fully
expect this message to be sitting on Ralph's desk before too many more days
pass.

To the leaker(s):

I'm utterly disgusted with you, whoever you are. (And I have my
suspicions.) This is one of the lowest, most despicable acts I've witnessed
in my entire life, and you are beneath contempt. Sleep well, you conscience-
less piece of shit.

- Charles

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Category 75, Topic 17
Message 566 Sun Jul 07, 1991
DARLAH [RT~SY
SOP] at 11:10 EDT

Who is going to Ashville. We should talk about this.
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Category 75, Topic 17
Message 567 Sun Jul 07, 1991
ISD [Nathan] at 11:15 EDT

Well said Charles!! While I don't necessarily agree that we should allow
Ralph to ruin the IAAD, knowing that someone is leaking info from this cat to
him, does affect the manner in which we converse here and I would hate like
hell to think that we let the likes of Lloyd and Ralph do this to us. There
must be an alternative.

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Category 75, Topic 17
Message 597 Wed Jul 10, 1991
D.A.BRUMLEVE [kidprgs] at 17:15 EDT

GEnie Lamp is preparing a little reference guide to developers and
others who are in a position to help STers get the most from their
machines. He has asked that we post "bios" in Category 34, Topic 8,
which will later be compiled into a complete listing. This is an
excellent opportunity to spread awareness of the IAAD and its
membership in a positive way. What follows is my own submission:

D.A. Brumleve
GEnie: D.A.BRUMLEVE
CIS: 71451,1141
Delphi: DABRUMLEVE
VOICE: 217 337 1937 (no voice mail)
FAX: 217 367 9084 (Attention: D.A. Brumleve)
USMail: P.O. Box 4195 / Urbana, IL 61801-8820 / USA

We provide commercial software applications for young children,
ages 3-11. Freely-distributed offerings and commercial program
demo versions are available in the ST RT Library 31 (Children's

Applications). Currently-available products available for the
ST/STe include:
Kidpublisher Professional
Kidpainter
Super Kidgrid
Telegram
Most of these are available in English, German, and Icelandic
versions. The programs are suitable for use both in school and
at home.

Inquiries are welcome on _any_ topic involving children and
computing! GEnie members, please direct general-interest
inquiries to Cat 29 of the ST RT Bulletin Board area.

D.A. Brumleve
Member, Independent Association of Atari Developers (IAAD)

Please take a few minutes to prepare a submission of your own.
And please _don't_ forget to mention your affiliation with
our organization.

Thank you.
Dorothy
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Category 75, Topic 17
Message 598 Wed Jul 10, 1991
JEFF.W [RTC Sysop]
at 21:10 EDT

I've got my sysop-hat on right now...

Would it help if we did an IAAD RTC here on GEnie? I will gladly schedule
one....GEnie is doing some heavy promotions in August, so maybe we can set one
up during that month and take advantage of GEnie's promotions to get the word
out.

It would certainly be another way to bring IAAD out of the closet and into the
limelight. I can get a transcript into the library shortly thereafter, and

I'm sure that GEnie Lamp, if none of the other mags, will also feature the
transcript.

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Category 75, Topic 17
Message 599 Wed Jul 10, 1991
MINDOVERMIDI at 22:54 EDT

Jim, I believe the format of the document is "CR at end of paragraph", if that
helps you at all.

Dorothy, I think that posting "bios" would violate non-disclosure with Atari,
along with "xbios" and "gemdos" <grin>.

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Category 75, Topic 17
Message 600 Wed Jul 10, 1991
D.A.BRUMLEVE [kidprgs] at 23:48 EDT

Wow, Darren...It's gonna be tough to be unbiosed.
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Category 75, Topic 17
Message 601 Thu Jul 11, 1991
J.ALLEN27 at 00:54 EDT

You guy's, always kiddin
g around ;-)

Sounds real neat Dot, thanks.
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Category 75, Topic 17
Message 602 Thu Jul 11, 1991
NEVIN-S at 07:51 EDT

Jeff, I'd say no to an IAAD RTC. What purpose would it serve at this point? If
we ever have a big announcement or something that would be fine. Right now the
only questions would be "What do you folks talk about? Why do you need a
private cat?" I see the IAAD as a private group intended to assist us in
surviving the ST marketplace, and don't see the need for an RTC to further
this goal. Maybe at some later date...

--Nevin
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Category 75, Topic 17
Message 603 Thu Ju
l 11, 1991
W.PARKS3 [Dr. Bob] at 14:50 EDT

I kinda feel the same as Nevin but I think a little strategy might help too.
If we do a conference NOW, it may enlighten users NOW so that when
the time comes LATER for our important announcement we'll have a little credibility.

Then again, as Nevin stated, I'm sure many of the questions would be
centered around the Ralph-generated topics of privacy and clique-ness and
such (and if Mr. Helms asks any questions- HOLD ME BACK!!!) ;-)

Bye: Dr. Bob
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Category 75, Topic 17
Message 604 Thu Jul 11, 1991
J.ALLEN27 at 16:51 EDT

Gee Doc, Helms seemed to like the T20? Of course he was on the phone every
single day asking about it....I finally needed to get some work done, so I
sent it. Now I suppose Norm will be calling all week ;-)

I think an IAAD rt would be pretty boring, that's about all that really matters.
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Category 75, Topic 17
Message 605 Thu Jul 11, 1991
T.GILL7 [GILLT] at 23:13 EDT

John and Charles,

Thanks for your positive reply to the experience I related. I am relieved to
know that you don't appear to think I have any k market.

Far be it from me to tell anyone how to run their business. If you want to
destroy the value of your own commercial software, that's your look-out. But
when it starts affecting _my_ business (which it has), then I get mad.

I hope you guys will give this some serious thought. I honestly believe
hat free programs that perform useful functions are helping to hasten The
End.

- Charles

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