MEMORY LANE
Category 75, Topic 17 Message 487 Wed Jun 26, 1991 ISD [Nathan] at 12:38 EDT Check out the post in cat 26, topic 2. You have to read it to believe it. :-) ------------ Category 75, Topic 17 Message 488 Wed Jun 26, 1991 C.F.JOHNSON [CodeHead] at 12:40 EDT Nathan, I download ST Report _very_ infrequently; usually only to check to make sure he's printed one of our press releases accurately, or if there's some stupid overblown "controversy," to see what the latest furor is about. And I never post messages in either Znet's or ST Report's category. The reality is that ST Report does provide a means of valuable free publicity to developers. A lot of "ordinary" (meaning "non-developer") folks do read ST Report. Since there are very few other Atari magazines left at all, ST Report and Znet are quickly becoming the _last_ venues for reaching a large audience with a product announcement. That's _really_depressing_, but it's a fact. No, I don't think you're an idiot. But I also don't think anything or anyone is served by trying to hound Ralph into giving up ST Report, either, because 1) it won't work, and 2) as developers, we need the damned thing for publicity purposes. Insert big sigh here. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Opinion time: I think what we're seeing here is the Atari world eating itself, tail-first. Unfortunately, I believe some of the developers in the IAAD are partially responsible for this self-ingestion, too -- the recent trend on the part of some of our members to release "free" utilities is a disturbing part of it. I brought this up once before, and everyone said I was overreacting, but here it is again: Have you folks at Double Click (with your "programs of the week") and Gribnif (with your "Colaware") really thought about what you're doing to the market by releasing free programs on a regular basis? Recently, I've received a couple of Email letters saying essentially, "Why should I _pay_ for Funk Alert when I can just wait a few weeks for DC to release a free program that does the same thing?" (Now am I still overreacting?) By doing these free programs, you are: a) helping to destroy people's perception of software value. You're instilling the belief in the userbase that it's _easy_ to write these kinds of programs. From there, it's a short step to the conclusion that "hey, if it's that easy for DC, then all these other people must be ripping us off!" From my Email, some people have _already_ reached this conclusion. b) helping to destroy the last vestiges of the commercial market. See point A, above. c) also destroying the last vestiges of the ST shareware market. Far be it from me to tell anyone how to run their business. If you want to destroy the value of your own commercial software, that's your look-out. But when it starts affecting _my_ business (which it has), then I get mad. I hope you guys will give this some serious thought. I honestly believe that free programs that perform useful functions are helping to hasten The End. - Charles ------------ Category 75, To pic 17 Message 490 Wed Jun 26, 1991 WORDFLAIR [Lauren] at 21:05 EDT I think we've downloaded ST Report only 2 or 3 times. By all means use it as a press release vehicle. Just be careful talking to Ralph he is an absolute genius about asking leading questions. Never doubt his intelligence and tremendous desire to get a scoop/"dirt." Do give him product/company news. You dig your own grave with gossip or confidential info though. The whole nature of online "journalism" is to bring timely info. Seems like there are many more downloads when the info is controversial or negative. I'd bet more Enquirers, Stars, etc. type papers sell than the New York Times or Christian Science Monitor so muckraking is certainly not limited to on-line vehicles. But if downloads are his measure of success, looking at it from his view, he does better printing total bs if it's got a good "hook." Random thoughts.. Lauren ------------ Category 75, Topic 17 Message 491 Wed Jun 26, 1991 J.TRAUTSCHOL [jtrautschold] at 22:15 EDT I *don't* regularly download ST Report. I don't even "belong" to his Cat. here on GEnie. Everytime I *do* end up reading one of his "Reports" I end up chastising myself for wasting the download time (except of course when he ran my press release! :-) I've never talked to Ralph on the phone and he's never tried to call me. I'm not even sure if he knows I'm an IAAD member (although if he's reading these messages I guess he would know.) I did get a few sales out of his publication, but his bashing of just about everything certainly doesn't do us any good. Hey Ralph, if you're reading this, lighten up, will ya? We're all here to see Atari succeed, aren't we? Sheese! John T. ------------ Category 75, Topic 17 Message 49 2 Thu Jun 27, 1991 C.WALNUM1 [CLAY] at 00:34 EDT Nathan: I agree with Charles about ST Report. Fact is, my first sales of C-MANSHIP COMPLETE came from my press release in ST Report. I don't always agree with the way Ralph does things, but there's no doubt that thousands of people read him. These days we need all the publicity we can get. On the other hand, he sure knows how to push _your_ buttons! <GRIN> I for one vowed a while ago that I will no longer argue with Ralph in a public forum. We had some nasty rounds a while back, and I found it most embarrassing. Charles: As you undoubtedly know, most people think shareware programs are free, too. So that market is already destroyed. My new game DEMOLITION MAN is the #1 download on another system and has been doing great here on GEnie too--and I haven't seen one thin dime. Luckily, I didn't write it for the money. Lauren: I've heard that the NATIONAL ENQUIRER is the #1 selling newspaper in the U.S. No doubt, the other tabloids aren't far behind. ---Clay ------------ Category 75, Topic 17 Message 493 Thu Jun 27, 1991 WUZTEK.OPI [Paul Wu] at 02:58 EDT The only time I read ST Report was to find the review of my product Ralph said he had published. He requested a OMNIMON Rainbow monitor for review purposes many months back and when I didn't hear from him, I looked all over for the article. I finally found a review of the OMNIMON Rainbow monitor but it was done by a customer who had bought the monitor a long time ago. The review was quite favorable but I suspect that not very many people read ST Report since I have not found a customer that has stated ST Report as where they hear about our product (questionaire in our warranty card.) Paul Wu ------------ Category 75, Topic 17 Message 494 Thu Jun 27, 1991 CRAIG.S.THOM at 21:14 EDT I've only talked to Ralph on the phone once, and he did most of the talking. He used the F word a lot, too. ------------ Category 75, Topic 17 Message 495 Thu Jun 27, 1991 D.THOMPSON66 [David @ JMG] at 21:14 EDT Nathan et al I've never read ST Report. When George was helping me set up Aladin he said to ignore that area! Hmmmm.... I wonder why? After listening to the arguments over the weekend I was pretty sure why! Anyways, my brief point in answering is that a customer walked into our retail store today and said that they had heard good things about HyperLINK in ST Report. Not knowing what the hell had been said, I find myself as a developer having to pay attention to it as a source for feedback. -djt ------------ Category 75, Topic 17 Message 496 Thu Jun 27, 1991 ISD [Nathan] at 22:33 EDT David, USE ST Report to spread the good word about your products. That's what justifies their existence. Same goes for ZNET and GEnie Lamp. Personally I made a mistake last week. I forgot that people like Ralph Mariano, Lloyd Pulley and Bill Ryal are best dealt with by ignoring them totally, to a point. Stay tuned. :-) ------------ Category 75, Topic 17 Message 497 Thu Jun 27, 1991 W.PARKS3 [Dr. Bob] at 23:07 EDT Well, I for one would not want to see Ralph or ST Report disappear. For the exact same reasons many people don't want anything to happen to George Bush ;) Bye: Dr. Bob ------------ Category 75, Topic 17 Message 498 Fri Jun 28, 1991 J.PIERSTORFF [J.PIERSTORFF] at 02:45 EDT I think it is to the credit of ST owners that so many will download ST Report and wade through so much drivel to try and glean any useful Atari related information. Obviously 300+ people find it worth trying every week. It is too bad that most people think Ralph's reporting is accurate. It is also sad that Ralph's ethics are so low that he would accept stolen transcripts of this private category. He must realize that if we wanted him to know what is said here he would be included! I believe that his doom & gloom reports have with time, and repeated exposure, seriously damaged the Atari market! His constant criticism of Atari warns users to "abandon ship!" get out while you can, andhave to read it to believe it. :-) ------------ Category 75, Topic 17 Message 509 Sat Jun 29, 1991 NEVIN-S at 01:11 EDT Nathan, that is a tough one. Part of me feels that you should call the person and if you feel the person is indeed passing on captures, lock him/her out of this cat. Part of me feels that without proof you should not do anything. Personally, I think when you ask the offender, he/she will not really deny it, but will say, "I just have a different opinion about the importance of confidentiality...." At that point, I would lock him/her out immediately. If he/she denies it, then you've got another tough situation. Also, if there is anything I can do to balance whatever BS is going with Ralph's apparent work against you and Darlah, let me know. --Nevin ------------ Category 75, Topic 17 Message 510 Sat Jun 29, 1991 C.WALNUM1 [CLAY] at 01:39 EDT Nathan: I think it's a rotten shame that the messages here are getting sent where they don't belong. And whoever is doing it should be disallowed access to the topic--but _never_ based solely on suspicions. I think that would be the classic case of two wrongs trying to make a right. If people start getting tossed out of the IAAD for unsubstantiated reasons, it would look very bad for the organization. Now, if you're 99% sure... ---Clay ------------ Category 75, Topic 17 Message 511 Sat Jun 29, 1991 J.ALLEN27 at 03:12 EDT If you're sure enough Nathan, use the axe. If you choose to make a public fight of it, you know you have my support. When Ralph called me yesterday morning he made some noise about Darlah, I made it clear he was taking on the wrong battle, this really is a case of Ralph's dead wrong and needs to cool his jets...or what will be will be. ------------ Category 75, Topic 17 Message 512 Sat Jun 29, 1991 G.RICHARDSO1 [George] at 08:30 EDT I think that unless you've got enough evidence to be reasonably sure, locking someone out is just going to disrupt the IAAD again. I really think that it's Ralph who's the problem here and even catching whoever seems to be passing him info is not going to end it. He may just coax someone else into doing the same. I'd really like to see the IAAD take some action against Ralph though. The problem is that I get the feeling that this is exactly what Ralph wants. After the IAAD responds in any way, He'll claim that either we're ganging up on him or he must be getting close to the truth or we wouldn't bother. He'll certainly feel justified. George Richardson Merlin Group, Inc. ------------ Category 75, Topic 17 Message 513 Sat Jun 29, 1991 D.A.BRUMLEVE [kidprgs] at 10:31 EDT I have decided to place my objections to ST Report's tactics only in public where they can enlighten all users rather than in here where they are of use only to IAAD members -- and, oh, yes, you, too, Ralph. ------------ | Category 75, Topic 17 Message 514 Sat Jun 29, 1991 J.EIDSVOOG1 [CodeHead] at 11:17 EDT Mike, Please refrain from stating "you [CodeHead] made your decision to leave the Atari market", either here or in public! We have NEVER said this to _anyone_, either publicly or privately. I don't know where you got that idea. We have mentioned that we are examining other platforms, but we've always made it a point to say, in the same breath, that we will always continue to support our ST products. John P.S. Since you started your free-program policy, we've corrected people several times on our BBS who have said that Double Click Software is free. This seems to be a common symptom of your "irrevocable decision". <donning my kid gloves> ------------ Category 75, Topic 17 Message 533 Tue Jul 02, 1991 N.WEINRESS at 01:27 EDT We must remember that access to this group is by invitation _only_. And whoever is leaking to Ralph may leak to others. Having Ralph blab things of general interest is bad enough, but the leaker can pass special info, of interest to competition, to the competition. It won't show up in ST Reports, but it can do harm. ------------ Category 75, Topic 17 Message 534 Tue Jul 02, 1991 ISD [Nathan] at 09:37 EDT Would someone care to draft a new IAAD acceptance as a member agreement, heavy on the non-disclosure aspect? I'd really appreciate it. Then everyone loses their access for a few days and are let back in one by one as they sign and return this new agreement. I like that. This way we have clear cut options, no possibility of a misunderstanding and we waste far less time. And just maybe, we'll lose a few members who will refuse to sign it and thats fine with me too since it will really solve a few problems painlessly. So WHO VOLUNTEERS?? ------------ Category 75, Topic 17 Message 535 Tue Jul 02, 1991 W.PARKS3 [Dr. Bob] at 14:12 EDT I volunteer Dorothy! ;-) ------------ Category 75, Topic 17 Message 536 Tue Jul 02, 1991 D.A.BRUMLEVE [kidprgs] at 14:46 EDT If nominated, I will not run...If elected I will not serve. In fact, an effort in this direction was made about a year ago. A "loyalty oath" of sorts was constructed and all members were asked to GEMail their "signature". Though I do not have the rlah, I made it clear he was taking on the wrong battle, this really is a case of Ralph's dea wrong and needs to cool his jets...or what will be will be. ------------ Category 75, Topic 17 Message 512 Sat Jun 29, 1991 G.RICHARDSO1 [George] at 08:30 EDT I think that unless you've got enough evidence to be reasonably sure, locking someone out is just going to disrupt the IAAD again. I really think that it's Ralph who's the problem here and even catching whoever seems to be passing him info is not going to end it. He may just coax someone else into doing the same. I'd really like to see the IAAD take some action against Ralph though. The problem is that I get the feeling that this is exactly what Ralph wants. After the IAAD responds in any way, He'll claim that either we're ganging up on him or he must be getting close to the truth or we wouldn't bother. He'll certainly feel justified. George Richardson Merlin Group, Inc. ------------ Category 75, Topic 17 Message 513 Sat Jun 29, 1991 D.A.BRUMLEVE [kidprgs] at 10:31 EDT I have decided to place my objections to ST Report's tactics only in public where they can enlighten all users rather than in here where they are of use only to IAAD members -- and, oh, yes, you, too, Ralph. ------------ Category 75, Topic 17 Message 565 Sun Jul 07, 1991 C.F.JOHNSON [CodeHead] at 02:12 EDT By the way, folks....I hate to have to say this, but the time has come. Unless the leak is plugged, and soon, I will not be posting anything else in this category, and I will delete all my existing messages .... and I urge anyone else who cares about possible repercussions to do the same We're all being compromised by whoever is leaking information to Ralph Mariano and Lloyd Pulley, and things have the potential to get VERY ugly. The IAAD has NO FUTURE if this continues. Period. I don't know if this has ever come out before, but a few months back someone also sent captures of the messages in this area to Bob Brodie at Atari. This is not speculation, it's cold fact; someone among us is slime. And I fully expect this message to be sitting on Ralph's desk before too many more days pass. To the leaker(s): I'm utterly disgusted with you, whoever you are. (And I have my suspicions.) This is one of the lowest, most despicable acts I've witnessed in my entire life, and you are beneath contempt. Sleep well, you conscience- less piece of shit. - Charles ------------ Category 75, Topic 17 Message 566 Sun Jul 07, 1991 DARLAH [RT~SY SOP] at 11:10 EDT Who is going to Ashville. We should talk about this. ------------ Category 75, Topic 17 Message 567 Sun Jul 07, 1991 ISD [Nathan] at 11:15 EDT Well said Charles!! While I don't necessarily agree that we should allow Ralph to ruin the IAAD, knowing that someone is leaking info from this cat to him, does affect the manner in which we converse here and I would hate like hell to think that we let the likes of Lloyd and Ralph do this to us. There must be an alternative. ------------ Category 75, Topic 17 Message 597 Wed Jul 10, 1991 D.A.BRUMLEVE [kidprgs] at 17:15 EDT GEnie Lamp is preparing a little reference guide to developers and others who are in a position to help STers get the most from their machines. He has asked that we post "bios" in Category 34, Topic 8, which will later be compiled into a complete listing. This is an excellent opportunity to spread awareness of the IAAD and its membership in a positive way. What follows is my own submission: D.A. Brumleve GEnie: D.A.BRUMLEVE CIS: 71451,1141 Delphi: DABRUMLEVE VOICE: 217 337 1937 (no voice mail) FAX: 217 367 9084 (Attention: D.A. Brumleve) USMail: P.O. Box 4195 / Urbana, IL 61801-8820 / USA We provide commercial software applications for young children, ages 3-11. Freely-distributed offerings and commercial program demo versions are available in the ST RT Library 31 (Children's Applications). Currently-available products available for the ST/STe include: Kidpublisher Professional Kidpainter Super Kidgrid Telegram Most of these are available in English, German, and Icelandic versions. The programs are suitable for use both in school and at home. Inquiries are welcome on _any_ topic involving children and computing! GEnie members, please direct general-interest inquiries to Cat 29 of the ST RT Bulletin Board area. D.A. Brumleve Member, Independent Association of Atari Developers (IAAD) Please take a few minutes to prepare a submission of your own. And please _don't_ forget to mention your affiliation with our organization. Thank you. Dorothy ------------ Category 75, Topic 17 Message 598 Wed Jul 10, 1991 JEFF.W [RTC Sysop] at 21:10 EDT I've got my sysop-hat on right now... Would it help if we did an IAAD RTC here on GEnie? I will gladly schedule one....GEnie is doing some heavy promotions in August, so maybe we can set one up during that month and take advantage of GEnie's promotions to get the word out. It would certainly be another way to bring IAAD out of the closet and into the limelight. I can get a transcript into the library shortly thereafter, and I'm sure that GEnie Lamp, if none of the other mags, will also feature the transcript. ------------ Category 75, Topic 17 Message 599 Wed Jul 10, 1991 MINDOVERMIDI at 22:54 EDT Jim, I believe the format of the document is "CR at end of paragraph", if that helps you at all. Dorothy, I think that posting "bios" would violate non-disclosure with Atari, along with "xbios" and "gemdos" <grin>. ------------ Category 75, Topic 17 Message 600 Wed Jul 10, 1991 D.A.BRUMLEVE [kidprgs] at 23:48 EDT Wow, Darren...It's gonna be tough to be unbiosed. ------------ Category 75, Topic 17 Message 601 Thu Jul 11, 1991 J.ALLEN27 at 00:54 EDT You guy's, always kiddin g around ;-) Sounds real neat Dot, thanks. ------------ Category 75, Topic 17 Message 602 Thu Jul 11, 1991 NEVIN-S at 07:51 EDT Jeff, I'd say no to an IAAD RTC. What purpose would it serve at this point? If we ever have a big announcement or something that would be fine. Right now the only questions would be "What do you folks talk about? Why do you need a private cat?" I see the IAAD as a private group intended to assist us in surviving the ST marketplace, and don't see the need for an RTC to further this goal. Maybe at some later date... --Nevin ------------ Category 75, Topic 17 Message 603 Thu Ju l 11, 1991 W.PARKS3 [Dr. Bob] at 14:50 EDT I kinda feel the same as Nevin but I think a little strategy might help too. If we do a conference NOW, it may enlighten users NOW so that when the time comes LATER for our important announcement we'll have a little credibility. Then again, as Nevin stated, I'm sure many of the questions would be centered around the Ralph-generated topics of privacy and clique-ness and such (and if Mr. Helms asks any questions- HOLD ME BACK!!!) ;-) Bye: Dr. Bob ------------ Category 75, Topic 17 Message 604 Thu Jul 11, 1991 J.ALLEN27 at 16:51 EDT Gee Doc, Helms seemed to like the T20? Of course he was on the phone every single day asking about it....I finally needed to get some work done, so I sent it. Now I suppose Norm will be calling all week ;-) I think an IAAD rt would be pretty boring, that's about all that really matters. ------------ Category 75, Topic 17 Message 605 Thu Jul 11, 1991 T.GILL7 [GILLT] at 23:13 EDT John and Charles, Thanks for your positive reply to the experience I related. I am relieved to know that you don't appear to think I have any k market. Far be it from me to tell anyone how to run their business. If you want to destroy the value of your own commercial software, that's your look-out. But when it starts affecting _my_ business (which it has), then I get mad. I hope you guys will give this some serious thought. I honestly believe hat free programs that perform useful functions are helping to hasten The End. - Charles

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