MEMORY LANE
Category 75, Topic 16 Message 578 Sat Jun 22, 1991 N.WEINRESS at 02:40 EDT Ok, I got a satellite dish. Someone tell where to point it. (Not _put_ it, Dr. Bob) ------------ Category 75, Topic 16 Message 579 Sat Jun 22, 1991 ISD [Nathan] at 11:06 EDT Don't put in anywhere yet. :-) I did speak to Michael and basically besides all of the above, he currently just needs a few programs to help him in layout and creation ie; Lexicor's stuff. Once he is up and running he will ask for anything we have and he will cover the Atari. He is an Atari person from way back and his wife teaches in elementary school on STe's that were "donated" to the school by Atari once upon a time. ------------ Category 75, Topic 16 Message 581 Sat Jun 22, 1991 STEVE-B at 14:43 EDT Lee, Fax me too. Steve Barker 801-628-5764. Later, __Steve B.__ ------------ Category 75, Topic 16 Message 582 Sat Jun 22, 1991 L.SEILER at 19:50 EDT OK STEVE-B I will fax you a copy on monday. Lee ------------ Category 75, Topic 16 Message 583 Sun Jun 23, 1991 C.F.JOHNSON [CodeHead] at 00:27 EDT The letter was absolutely appalling, in what it reveals about Atari's business practices. Appalling, but unfortunately not surprising at all. - Charles ------------ Category 75, Topic 16 Message 584 Sun Jun 23, 1991 L.SEILER at 05:11 EDT CHARLES, Now you no why I have not been very simpathetic in my reactions to B.R. For some reason from the first time I met the guy I have had much the same problems, and to some extent worse. All I ever expected was a no nonsense relationship with ATARI. I don't think I have ever gotten a stright answer from B.R nor can I recall any time that any commitment made to my company was ever keepted on time. I can/t really say that I have faced any dishonesty un- till the last few weeks. I know the comment posted here about SFAN not being a leagle business was sourced from B.R. The point is that if he did not check his facts then it was wrong to make any mention of this, and had he actually checked he would have found that SFAN was ligit as far as having incorporated. If B.R Knew this then it was a Lie to say otherwise. And I know that he has spread this un truth around ATARI because I hered this from another source. Well I hope that this last incendent has shown hime that he simply can not continue in the same fashion. Bye for now Lee ------------ Category 75, Topic 16 Message 586 Sun Jun 23, 1991 C.F.JOHNSON [CodeHead] at 11:45 EDT Lee, B.R. has now promised to send us the latest version of the TT ROMs _five_ times, and we still don't have them. I think it's important to keep in mind that Bill doesn't do _anything_ without Leonard's approval. I can't help but think that the horrifying attitudes exposed by that letter originate in Leonard's office, not with Bill. Bill doesn't have an original thought of his own. By the way, this letter mentions an Atari "black list" of developers. I've been hearing rumors of something like this from other people; does anyone know anything more specific? - Charles ------------ Category 75, Topic 16 Message 588 Sun Jun 23, 1991 ISD [Nathan] at 14:42 EDT NO BLACK LIST!! Geez. Bill had a list on the wall of his office that anyone could view that indicated a direction that Atari wished to take, in his opinion. This list was aimed at possible big-name software houses, porting to Atari platform and possible current Atari Devs that could actually do the work. At least I think thats what Bill said when I asked him about that particular list. :-) If there would have been a black list of any kind, you better believe I would have known about it from one source or another. My sources within Atari worldwide are at least as good as Ralphs, after all. :-) ------------ Category 75, Topic 16 Message 589 Sun Jun 23, 1991 C.WALTERS1 [Chet] at 21:07 EDT Sheeit! You don't thing Ralf would've published a black list long long ago if there was such a thing. Lee - thanks for the info a while back on .PNT files. Fax is (216) - 545 - 1007 if it ain't too late. Dorothy (oooooo i love it when I get to correct Dorothy which ain't often)... the word is piqued not peaked.... just had to do it.... just had to...... ______Chet at \/\/iz\/\/orks! ;^{) ------------ Category 75, Topic 16 Message 591 Mon Jun 24, 1991 L.SEILER at 01:46 EDT I AM NOT SURE that all of what Bill does originates in Leanords office? I am sure that at least part of the problem is that things don't originate in Leanords office and maby should I will be content if I just get stright developer suppor t and no bull shit from bill. I don't generally carry a grudge, so I am quite willing to do business with ATARI, but for the moment Bill is still caught in one big lie, If he doese it again It will be the last Lie he tells as an ATARI employee. On the other hand He may get lucky and never lie to me again. DA I will send you the Fax Monday some time Noon my time. Now about the black list. This is real and I have checked with someone I trust at ATARI. The way it works so far as I can Tell is this: If a Developer does "something" (?) that angers Bill then he tells Gail to make a criptic not in the Developers "Doseya(folder)" from that time on un till the Developer gains redemption any request for support what ever they may be are placed in a pile which is never used, while all others get what ever the current priority Bill has set up. I have been on this Black List twice, the first time I had a casheers check sit for Six weeks untill I sent a second check and wrote a Letter Helping provide documentation to help ATARI close down their PRIATE DEALER "ZYPHER" in berkeley. Then suddenly the lost check was found and I started getting my news letter, I started getting through on the phone etc...abd...so on. The second time was over an .ACC one of my developers wrote on expressed request from Bill and which he promised all neccessary paperwork and money. Untill I talked to my special back door contact to Sam and this SFAN deal erupted I could not get a call throught, May company was thretened with a copy- right suite from Bill for the xcvontrole pannel now just released and a few other choice things. Now suddenly He is calling me as if we were old friends and talking about how wounderfull things he is doing for ATARI as if it was his Idea to Support SFAN in the first place. I belive there is a black list as such and it is policyy with Bill. I can't offer anyy of you proof nor would I have ever mentioned it here but for our confidentiality. In myy next post I will tell you all what my goals for my company are and how I expect to attain them, I will out line what I have done thus far and how effective my efforts have been. Lee ------------ Category 75, Topic 16 Message 593 Mon Jun 24, 1991 J.EIDSVOOG1 [CodeHead] at 05:03 EDT Lee, I certainly don't want the members to get all upset and start a big hopeless thread again, but you should be aware that this Cat may not be as confidential as you think. We have had definite confirmed leaks here in the past. Since there was no way to determine where they came from, essentially nothing has changed. The same members (and many more) are still present here and may still be passing information to Ralph. If just that now Ralph does not reveal that he gets the information. John ------------ Category 75, Topic 16 Message 594 Mon Jun 24, 1991 CHERRY.FONTS at 08:16 EDT Here's an Atari problem I'd like to hear some opinions on. I haven't heard anyone else mention it so I assume it only means something to me and my business. Atari's FSMGDOS only loads Ultrascript/IBM format fonts. I've asked Bill Rehbok for the format so I can port my library over and support their system (and GREATLY broaden my potential userbase), but Bill just shrugs and says they didn't purchase the font format so they don't know it and couldn't possibly give it to me. It seems to me that they made a big mistake in not acquiring that font format. They (we) need a global font and printer driver system like the Mac has and FSM isn't all that bad as far as font management goes. It has nicely hinted screen representations of its printer fonts which is a very late FIRST in Atari kingdom. But without third party font support, it'll NEVER be accepted as a serious alternative to proprietary font/printer systems. (Yes, Nathan, I realise you couldn't give a damn.) At this point I'm not too sure how many applications are going to support it. It seems to me that WordFlair II is the only one so far and I can see those Wordflair II users begging for a change from Lucida after about 4 days. In other words, there is potentially a HUGE market for me and other type vendors. A market that I can't even touch without a little more effort on behalf of Atari. How can they be convinced to obtain and release that format specification to their developers? Bill R.'s replies are sometimes terse, sometimes partonising, never pleasant, and always reeking of the brick wall syndrome. Is there someone else I should be talking to at Atari? ..Todd @ Cherry ------------ Category 75, Topic 16 Message 595 Mon Jun 24, 1991 ISD [Nathan] at 09:37 EDT Yup, talk to Leonard Todd. Be adviced that he considers himself an expert in DTP and once asked me to help him talk DMC into changing over to GDOS. This was last Duesseldorf. I told him to take a look around instead. Almost anyone showing anything, did so from Calamus. :-) He dropped the subject. :-) ------------ Category 75, Topic 16 Message 596 Mon Jun 24, 1991 J.EIDSVOOG1 [CodeHead] at 11:02 EDT Nathan, Leonard Todd? Don't you mean Leonard Tramiel? <grin> John ------------ Category 75, Topic 16 Message 597 Mon Jun 24, 1991 ICDINC at 11:10 EDT "PARANOIA STRIKES IAAD!" (Headlines for Ralphs next Report.) Lee, you are getting the same shitty service that all the rest of us get from Atari. I seriously doubt Atari is organized well enough to have a "black list". I think Bill is just one of those overworked optimists (after all he hired on with Atari) that cannot possibly fulfill all of his promisses. THe good intentions are there. With Atari, the "squeaky wheel gets the grease". So make lots of noise anytime you want anything. If anyone is getting great service from Atari, I would like to hear about it. Then I would believe that there is a black list. - TOM - ------------ Category 75, Topic 16 Message 598 Mon Jun 24, 1991 DOUG.W at 21:28 EDT Todd, Why don't you write some GDOS screen and printer drivers which use Calamus fonts? That'd solve the problem nicely! :-) --Doug ------------ Category 75, Topic 16 Message 599 Mon Jun 24, 1991 ISD [Nathan] at 21:38 EDT GDOS screen fonts ARRRGHHH chhhat phwet. :-) Talk about taking one rather large step backwards. :-) ------------ Category 75, Topic 16 Message 600 Mon Jun 24, 1991 DOUG.W at 21:58 EDT Nathan, What I mean is to use Calamus outline fonts onscreen and for printing, much like FSM GDOS, but with the current GDOS and a known font format. This would allow GDOS applications to have the same beautiful on-screen and printed fonts at Calamus has now. --Doug ------------ Category 75, Topic 16 Message 601 Mon Jun 24, 1991 C.DAYMON at 23:33 EDT Todd @ Cherry, The best source of information on what is happening with FSM seems to be Dennis Fung. I've spoken to him several times and he has been very helpful. As I've stated before, talking to Rehbock is a waste of time. He is NOT, as someone recently implied, overworked. (Except for a pair of chapped lips and a sore back from bending over to kiss Leonard's ass!) Bill spends most of his time playing with every new toy he can get his hand on and arranging 'deals' for his 'friends'. Take the printing fiasco of CEPS because Bill managed to pass the printing job off to a friend in Chicago rather than having it done locally. If you want to get Rehbock to do something, you've got to go round him to insure that others know he's expected to get it done. If he's your only contact, it'll only get done if he feels like it. -Craig ------------ Category 75, Topic 16 Message 602 Mon Jun 24, 1991 ISD [Nathan] at 23:36 EDT Oops, sorry Doug, I misunderstood. ------------ Category 75, Topic 16 Message 603 Tue Jun 25, 1991 L.SEILER at 01:12 EDT THANKS TO ALL, You have confirmed what I had thought for the most part. and I agree pretty much. You will find I tend to be dorect and to the point. I sent out the fax to the last of you who requested it. Un less there is something else on the subject I have nothing much to say as to why I believe what I do. I do have some news about the SFAN situation. To day I got a call from Mr. Kelley,,,was he steamed. As you may know OLe Ralph got some sort of confirmation from SAM T that atari had thrown their hat into the ring. Well it seams that is all they are going to do. Mr. Kelly called Bill R to see what the arrangements would be for the TT and got hit with ?...you guessed it " More documentation please!!" a letter from the STAR Trek personana was not enough, now BILL wants Letters from other Heads of corporations that are associated with SFAN. it appears that BILL insist that the people at and in support of SFAN jump through some more Hoops be for He authorizes anyy support for The SFAN? I can't imagin a worst person to be in the developer support job than the one that is there now. It is no wounder that they have such a bad image! Thats it for now. I will post my palns and future plans here in a dayy or so, I have to go to a Computer graphics conf. in Sana Clara tommorrow so I will not be back up for a while. Lee ------------ Category 75, Topic 16 Message 604 Tue Jun 25, 1991 MINDOVERMIDI at 05:59 EDT Todd, I could probably break that font format for you... :) ------ ------ Category 75, Topic 16 Message 605 Tue Jun 25, 1991 ISD [Nathan] at 08:23 EDT Lee, what this? Ralph confirmed Atari's participation with Sam??? How the hell does Ralph enter into this picture? (sigh) You'll learn. ------------ Category 75, Topic 16 Message 606 Tue Jun 25, 1991 C.F.JOHNSON [CodeHead] at 21:28 EDT Todd, I agree 1000%. The fact that Atari didn't even license the font format for FSMGDOS from Imagen is exceedingly stupid. (How come I'm not surprised? It probably would have cost them some money.) Can FSMGDOS use Postscript Type 1 fonts, or is Imagen's proprietary format the only game in town? - Charles ------------ Category 75, Topic 16 Message 607 Wed Jun 26, 1991 DAVESMALL at 02:10 EDT It is rather interesting how Ralph ends up in some sort of influential position. I'm positive what's written here gets back to him daily to weekly timeframe, from what I see. It's just a shame he seems to use it negatively. Let's all chip in and buy him another brand computer. -- thanks, Dave / Gadgets ------------ Category 75, Topic 16 Message 608 Wed Jun 26, 1991 WUZTEK.OPI [Paul Wu] at 04:35 EDT Todd, Isn't Ultrascript font Adobe type 1 or type 3 font compatible? You must know that the Type 1 font spec is now public domain (or at least obtainable from Adobe). Just a thought... Paul ------------ Category 75, Topic 16 Message 609 Thu Jun 27, 1991 L.SEILER at 01:46 EDT Nathin, The way that Ol'e Ralph got involved, I understand, is that Mr. Kelley (a long time Geni-er) called him? and that Ralph called Sam to confirm the denighial (sic) of equipment by Rehbock. I found out about the second refusal to deliver (based on lack of self ligitimizing documents) by Rehbock, when Mr. Kelly called Me and Rio to see if we were go ing to come through our selves. Which we are, the computer is on it's way from up north as we speak. As you can see by the letter from Mr. Kelly and Ralphs News story, something happned in the translation. I can't complain about the pat on the back Lexicor got, but the story was not true as you all know. This is one of those cases where for some reason Ralph decided that honey and kisses would be better than a kick in the Ass. I have put about as much effort and time as I can in this for the moment, so unless any of you want or need furthor information I won't touch on this issue again. By the way I don't think any one here has told Ralph any thing in this case, WWhat I have hered from ralph sounded like it came from rehbock and Mr. kelley? Tommorrow I will post news from the Computer graphics Co nference in Santa Clara that I attended Today. Lee ------------ Category 75, Topic 16 Message 610 Thu Jun 27, 1991 ISD [Nathan] at 10:10 EDT I'd be interested to hear about that show Lee, thanks. I also assumed that Ralph got his info from Atari and Michael by the way. :-) ------------ Category 75, Topic 16 Message 611 Fri Jun 28, 1991 L.SEILER at 00:30 EDT NATHIN, I guessed that by your comments, I don't think that SFAN is going to happen with ATARI?. Rehbock according to Kelley made even more demands in Sam's name. I have no way of knowing just what is really going on. We will provide one TT and an assortment of software just on general principal. It will be a low cost lease for 6 month then pay for it or ret urn it. Lee ------------ Category 75, Topic 16 Message 612 Fri Jun 28, 1991 J.ALLEN27 at 02:17 EDT Atari is so silly. When ever we see one of the Tramiels at shows from now on, we should make it a point to just point and laugh. I don't think there is a blacklist, but there definitely is a shit list and I've been on it more than once. But greasy wheels usually get greased and mine finally did, signed, sealed, and in my file cabinet. I never thought I'd see the day, but they did sign it. Now when I start selling this monster, I'll be back on the SL for making the TT look like a turtle... non-Ninja variety. ------------ Category 75, Topic 16 Message 613 Fri Jun 28, 1991 J.PIERSTORFF [J.PIERSTORFF] at 02:44 EDT Guys, The Ultrascript IBM font that FSMGDOS uses is not like anything else, type 1 or otherwise. If FSMGDOS actually does get released, I'm sure we'll see some conversion programs. :-> Jay Pierstorff ------------ Category 75, Topic 16 Message 614 Fri Jun 28, 1991 CHERRY.FONTS at 05:03 EDT Paul, Unfortunately Atari (and Imagen too for that matter) didn't see fit to use a standard typeface format such as Type-1 or Truetype for FSM-GDOS. They didn't even use the Atari Ultrascript font format, they used the IBM format. This isn't to say that's entirely bad. As a matter of fact, I'm thoroughly impressed with FSM9's (not Ultrascripts') ability to render low resolution type from a given outline. It's obvious they have come a long way with resolution hints. Now, just tell me the damn format! I am a registered developer after all. If they'd have used type-1, I'd have been happy. I eat,sleep and breath the type-1 spec. and even the amazing new Truetype format. I'd have been happy indeed.. Darren, The FSM format is likel y too complex to crack without spending far too much time at it. I can't afford to hire a programmer for a year. It's not a simple format like Calamus fonts, and as Nathan can attest, even that hasn't been _perfectly_ cracked by 3rd party editors yet. There are hinting tables and character-string subroutines that complicate the format to no end. You have to know how the interpreter deals with the features in order to figure how what the features even look like. It's tough. If they don't want to _give_ me the font format, then I'm not going to waste any time trying to support their product. I've made that mistake once (or twice) already. Jay, I've heard about an impending converter for the fonts and I'm not interested. I have one FontHurter already and it can't even give me a destination font that prints the same size as the source font, not to mention the fact that it ignores my [hard won] spacing information and usually crashes before finishing the job. No thanks. If you want something done right, do it yourself - I say. I'd also like to have fonts ready by the time FSM is released. Yeah right. Doug W., I think it'd be easier to convince Atari to release that font format than to recreate FSM from scratch. If I sound a bit growly about this, it's because I see the font world moving ahead at lightspeed and leaving my ST wondering when it can get a piece of the technology. That's just plain frustrating to a type maker who happens to like the ST. ..Todd ------------ Category 75, Topic 16 Message 615 Fri Jun 28, 1991 ISD [Nathan] at 22:22 EDT No Lee, I hope like hell that not only Atari participates, and I did tell Atari so, speaking personally, not on behalf of the IAAD but I also hope that Michael does get his act together. :-) And since this weeks ST Rag states that the IAAD has supported SFAN by contributing a TT, please clarify that it was you that did so, not the IAAD. Brownie points for you. I think this is probably the best way to handle Ralphs misinformation so post in cat 26, top 2 and clear up the confusion. Next Ralph will try speaking on behalf of the IAAD. If you choose not to do so, I will, but it will get ugly fast as Ralph, Lloyd and now Bill Ryal your CIS rep I believe, are blatantly after my ass cause I just don't respect them enough. :- ) ------------ Category 75, Topic 16 Message 616 Sat Jun 29, 1991 J.ALLEN27 at 02:57 EDT Do what you godda do Nathan ;-) ------------ Category 75, Topic 16 Message 617 Sun Jun 30, 1991 L.SEILER at 07:17 EDT NATHIN, I havent seen the post you are referring to? but I would be happy to make any clarification you like. I haven't talked to Ralph for some time so I don't know where he is getting his information? I don't think I understand your whole message,,,what do you mean "hope Mickael gets his act to geather?" The last I heard he had arranged for a tel- conference between Walter Koneig and Sam Tramiel? it appears that Koneig may end up being a spokes person for some ATARI advertising? Jim A. You jnoe I think that I may be using the term Black list to mean Shit List not that you mention it. I seem to have been on and Off on several occasions. I guess a Black list is perminent? In any case at present I can't get a call returned, but I did get new ROMS for all our TT's so maby i am on netural ground for the moment? Nathin maby you should call me and tell me what I should do about the TT/IAAD question? Lee ------------ Category 75, Topic 16 Message 618 Sun Jun 30, 1991 J.ALLEN27 at 13:58 EDT Bill, let me decode...you're on Bill's shit list, not Jay Patten's, hence the roms ;-) I'm on Bill and Leonard's shit list because I mentioned that the emperor had no clothes...I'm mean sensible HDrive policy on the MSTE during R Millers conf. I live with it ;-) ------------ Category 75, Topic 16 Message 619 Mon Jul 01, 1991 L.SEILER at 01:52 EDT J.A-27 Should I be worried about compatibility with your HW? I never got an upgrade from you, ( Ime' not complaining ) it just occures to me that I haven't run any of our software with your HW.? BTW I liked your treatis on 24 bit color...it was very good. Lee ------------ Category 75, Topic 16 Message 620 Mon Jul 01, 1991 J.ALLEN27 at 05:16 EDT The regular 68000 stuff...now 20Mhz...is no problem, the 030 board will be OK as long as your code doesn't assume that an 030 means a TT and all that goes along with it...new res's, tos 3.05, vme, etc. As long as you're happy on an 030/882 MegaST, life will be fine...and really swift. ----- ------- Category 75, Topic 16 Message 621 Mon Jul 01, 1991 ISD [Nathan] at 14:48 EDT Sorry Lee, I wasn't clear. When I referred to Michael getting it together, I meant "I want SFAN to be on the air so I can watch it "!! :-) Lee, basically, the IAAD did not donate a TT. I will call you on Tuesday to discuss this, otherwise Ralph will use it to make him look good and us look bad, in my opinion. ------------ Category 75, Topic 16 Message 622 Mon Jul 01, 1991 DAVESMALL at 21:34 EDT I know of three takeoffs in fun of St Report. I was wondering if anyone who had written one would like to swap, just for grins. Yeah, I'd like to post 'em too, but no way with the current total lack of legal support for online notes. -- Drop me a line, Dave / Gadgets ------------ Category 75, Topic 16 Message 623 Mon Jul 01, 1991 J.ALLEN27 at 23:37 EDT Maybe Carl would repost it here? It was truly gifted ;-) ------------ Category 75, Topic 16 Message 624 Tue Jul 02, 1991 WUZTEK.OPI [Paul Wu] at 06:03 EDT Todd, Too bad Atari has elected to ignore the industry standard even when it is free (Correct me if I am wrong, Adobe Type 1 and Truetype specs are PD, right?) Even if it is not free, it would've have made Ataris more acceptable to the DTP and prepress crowd. I sympathize with your delima but I think your Calamas fonts have better market potential than an FSM version will ever have. True, the number of registered Calamus users in North America maybe limited. However, I suspect that there are many more ill-legitimate users out there. They are all your potential customers. ------------ Category 75, Topic 16 Message 625 Tue Jul 02, 199 1 ISD [Nathan] at 09:32 EDT Registered Calamus owners in North America are not as limited as you might expect Paul. :-) Many thousands in fact. And naturally you are correct in that there are without a doubt, 10's of thousands of pirated users out there. (sigh) And Paul's right Todd, they are all potential customers for you. Dave Small, I wouldn't mind seeing any parody of ST Report. Maybe you would be so kind as to send some email. :-) ------------ Category 75, Topic 16 Message 626 Wed Jul 03, 1991 WUZTEK.OPI [Paul Wu] at 03:20 EDT Nathan, Sorry if I gave an impression that Calamus had a limited following. I was refering to a conversation I had with Todd at the PNAS about the number of registered users in North America in relation to his sales. Now, I am not a software developer but how many piecies of softwares you have to sell to consider the product a sucess? I think with hardwares, a couple of thousands of units should be considered rather sucessful in the U.S. Atari market. Paul Wu ------------ Category 75, Topic 16 Message 627 We d Jul 03, 1991 L.SEILER at 03:41 EDT NATHAN, I was in and out too say so I missed your call? Sorry! I understand what you are saying and you are correct! The problem is that I haven't said anything to Ralph about any of this or the IAAD? If you wan't or need some kind of statement from me or RIO Computers "who is actually supplying" the TT I am happy to say so? Please keep trying, to get me, I will try to call you as well. Sorry for the Mix Up ...Ralph seemes to get most of what he does here twisted, I will do what ever is required. Lee ------------ Category 75, Topic 16 Message 628 Wed Jul 03, 1991 ISD [Nathan] at 10:37 EDT You hit the nail on the head Lee, putting Ralph and twisted in the same sentence. :-) Let's ignore his error for now and see if he expands on it. ------------ Category 75, Topic 16 Message 629 Fri Jul 05, 1991 L.SEILER at 04:25 EDT NATHAN, I got your mail, thanks for the info..I talked with Mike Kelley and it seems that he has badgered Sam T to the point of getting the TT he wanted. I mentioned our concerns about the wrong conclusion about IAAD support. He said he would contact Ralph and make some sort of distinction? I have no problem with doing a conference...I have two seporiate tel lines into my office so if you are ready to tell me what to do on one line while I am online on the other Any time is a good time for me. Just check my log-on times! Paul tells me that you got all the infor you needed but I did not get the Key or suspect program back yet. Lee ------------ Category 75, Topic 16 Message 630 Fri Jul 05, 1991 ISD [Nathan] at 08:57 EDT Lee... expect some EMail from Jeff Williams, JEFF.W as besides all his usual day to day work, :-) he also handles the formal conferences as a GEnie Sysop. The conferences don't start until 7:00 pm your time so hopefully there won't be to many calls coming in to interupt. This is good business and I'm sure you will have a great turnout for your conference. I'll be there. :-) And I don't need to call you on the other line, I can type to you privately inside the conference. :-) My apologies. You were absolutley correct. The problem was not the key, it was the TT. (sigh) We tried it on another TT first and it worked without a hitch. I should have told you. Paul and David got our import/export working 100% so we have a match. :-)\ More good business. ------------ Category 75, Topic 16 Message 631 Fri Jul 05, 1991 J.ALLEN27 at 12:21 EDT Another good match, Turbo030 just loves the TT version of DC!!! ------------ Category 75, Topic 16 Message 632 Fri Jul 05, 1991 DARLAH [RT~SYSOP] at 13:14 EDT Lee: I will have Jeff send you mail. His address is JEFF.W <-- He sent you mail about an RTC but never got a reply. Do you need help in mail? We will be glad to help you. Category 75, Topic 16 Message 633 Sun Jul 07, 1991 L.SEILER at 03:39 EDT DARLAH, Maby I do? I remember his note and tried to send an answer. I really have a terrible time at the key board stuff. First I never been able to get the knack of spelling, and I am blessed with a stigmatisum, which makes some letter or chertor switching invisible to me. I often have thought I keyed in the right thing and discover I am trapped in some endliss loop. evenyually I just turn off my modem and give up. You may have noticed I have been trying to answer some question on line about our products. I would be happy to start a LEXICOR topic any time. I now have three on different things which we now sell. What do I need to do to qualify for a Free Flag here in the ATARI RT? I will try to answer Jeff's next post...in fact I may just try sending him a Knock Knock to see if I have the mail sending in hand. Thanks for the interest in what we are trying to do. Lee ------------ Category 75, Topic 16 Message 634 Sun Jul 07, 1991 D.A.BRUMLEVE [kidprgs] at 04:05 EDT Lee, it may help you in providing online support to prepare your messages offline and upload them to the BB rather than typing them in on the fly. This would give you an opportunity to correct your spelling as best you can before the text sees the light of day. The GEnie BB editor is nearly useless, so editing a message online is tough for all of us. What you need to ask for is a Lexicor _Category_. Your products (some, at least) already have Topics in the Graphics Category, and when a Lexicor Category is provided, the sysops will move these Topics and their messages to the new Category. ------------ Category 75, Topic 16 Message 635 Sun Jul 07, 1991 DARLAH [RT~SYSOP] at 11:08 EDT Excellent idea. Let me know what you want to do. ------------ Category 75, Topic 16 Message 636 Sun Jul 07, 1991 ISD [Nathan] at 11:13 EDT Lee, maybe you need to use Aladdin. It can make life easier. I don't use it but many do. And Dorothy, I use the GEnie editor all the time. :-) It just goes to show, you can get used to anything. :-) ------------ Category 75, Topic 16 Message 637 Mon Jul 08, 1991 L.SEILER at 02:45 EDT HO..GREAT NOW YOU GUYS WANT TO..get me to try off line file upload something I can't spell anyway? I see what you are trying to do...! figgered to draw me in...A! well it won't work! I am just going to use the wrong command and get lost.....so there.....! .....Drugge....Drugge....Drugge......Drugge.......a lost sole.. wounders the endles byways of Genie once again......Drugge....D ....ru....gg......e................................ ------------ Category 75, Topic 16 Message 638 Mon Jul 08, 1991 J.ALLEN27 at 04:47 EDT Lee, you could always hire a helper to cover your support efforts on GEnie. ------------ Category 75, Topic 16 Message 639 Mon Jul 08, 1991 D.A.BRUMLEVE [kidprgs] at 09:38 EDT Lee ---> :-) ------------ Category 75, Topic 16 Message 640 Mon Jul 08, 1991 ISD [Nathan] at 09:59 EDT Jim just volunteered in fact. :-) ------------ Category 75, Topic 16 Message 641 Mon Jul 08, 1991 J.ALLEN27 at 12:07 EDT And here my father taught me NEVER volunteer ;-) ------------ ************ Topic 17 Wed Aug 01, 1990 ISD [Nathan] (Forwarded) Sub: Dealing with the Media Lets discuss the various North American ST publications. 618 message(s) total. ************ ------------ Category 75, Topic 17 Message 394 Thu Jun 06, 1991 C.WALTERS1 [Chet] at 04:22 EDT Yeah, and we been 'fraid of the Reds for all these years when right next door..... ______Chet at \/\/iz\/\/orks! ;^{) ------------ Category 75, Topic 17 Message 395 Thu Jun 06, 1991 C.WALNUM1 [CLAY] at 23:13 EDT I recently heard from someone at Atari in the UK that the June issue of ST USER has a review of my book, C-MANSHIP COMPLETE, in it. There's no place near me where I can get the UK magazines, unfortunately. Has anyone seen this issue yet? Has it made its way into the U.S.? ---Clay Category 75, Topic 17 Message 396 Thu Jun 06, 1991 J.ALLEN27 at 23:33 EDT They thought it was great Clay!!! They just wondered when an English language version would be available ;-) Just kidding, haven't seen it. ------------ Category 75, Topic 17 Message 398 Sat Jun 08, 1991 JMGSOFT [George @ JMG] at 03:57 EDT Clay, I have the magazine in my store.... I just never get time to read it. I'll try to remember to take a look. | Category 75, Topic 17 Message 399 Sat Jun 08, 1991 ISD [Nathan] at 11:45 EDT I wrote an article in the latest version of AtariUser. I took the opportunity to try and submit an upbeat Atari related story. I thought it went over well. Then Ralph, in his latest ST Report, took the opportunity to point out that I didn't mention that the original meeting was held in his hotel room, which it was, and that Michael Arthur and Gordon, according to Ralph, worked to get the meeting organized for 6 weeks prior to WAACE where the meeting was held. Of this I have no comment. Personally I learned about the meeting the day before it was held. I also clearly remember walking into Ralphs packed hotel room and Gordon immediately turned the meeting over to me to run. I knew maybe 10% of the developers present at the time and wasn't exactly t thrilled to death to be put on the spot in that fashion. :-) Anyway, for those of you that weren't there, this was 2 years ago at WAACE. Gordon went on to become the first member of the IAAD to be asked to leave our membership which is enough said on that long dead issue. Anyway, I responded in cat 26 to Ralph. Most of you are aware that I have zero respect for the man but I did try to restrain myself. :-) If you're interested, its cat 26. topic 2 message 240. And this could well be the start of a war, me against Ralph and all his buddies. :-) Isn't life grand. ------------ Category 75, Topic 17 Message 400 Sat Jun 08, 1991 J.ALLEN27 at 13:37 EDT I'm the guy that got this thing going, I put the bug in MA's head, in an effort to get him to stop bugging me. He would call once a week and want to jaw bout how shitty things were in atariland, so I said "Hey, what the industry needs is a dev organization...". But as in life, just having the idea doesn't an organization make ;-) It was the work AFTER the meeting in Ralphs room...which he's not about to let anyone forget ;-)...that got us together. We should thank them for the "idea", and get back to business ;-) PS. I think Ralph is actually miffed about the rumors of a "booklet" and the fact that ABCO...and Toad, CG, etc...weren't invited to participate. ------------ Category 75, Topic 17 Message 401 Sat Jun 08, 1991 CRAIG.S.THOM at 13:52 EDT I blew off the meeting and stayed in the "7 Guys from Canada" suite and drank Molson until the wee hours. The exact details of that evening escape me. ------------ Category 75, Topic 17 Message 403 Sat Jun 08, 1991 NEVIN-S at 16:17 EDT Jim, you didn't think of the idea, I told you to tell Michael Arthur about it. Don't you remember? And actually, I didn't think of it myself, Bill Teal said I should think about it. I think Bill got the idea from Dave Small. But I guess Sandy was the one who got Dave thinking about it in the first place. And Sandy only thought about it because of the idea of an internal Spectre 128, and Leonard T told her that Atari developers would have more clout if they formed a group. So Leonard really started the whole thing....! hehe --Nevin Who started what is not important at all. The main thing is the group works in its own way, is useful to us, and that's all. The history of the group's formation is not worth losing any sleep over. ------------ Category 75, Topic 17 Message 405 Sat Jun 08, 1991 W.PARKS3 [Dr. Bob] at 20:15 EDT Actually, to give credit where credit is due, we should thank Steve Wozniac and Steve Jobs for pushing the home computer into the hands (or tabletops) of the masses. Without that event, Atari wouldn't have been (nor many others;-) So.... "Thanks Woz!" Bye: Dr. Bob (ps: was Jack at commodore back when it first switched from calculators to the PET 2001 ? Or did he come later... ) ------------ Category 75, Topic 17 Message 406 Sat Jun 08, 1991 G.RICHARDSO1 [George] at 20:57 EDT Jack was the founder of Commodore. That probably has a lot to do with the fact that Atari see's them as "The Competition." It might also explain Atari in general. Nobody wants to put a lot of effort into somebody elses revenge. George Richardson Merlin Group, Inc. ------------ Category 75, Topic 17 Message 407 Sat Jun 08 , 1991 ISD [Nathan] at 22:20 EDT 10 new messages in cat 26 since my post and I'm staying in it this time. If you don't want to get involved, don't. :-) If you would allow me to share a few of your insights, please email them and I will. And George is of course correct. :-) ------------ Category 75, Topic 17 Message 408 Sun Jun 09, 1991 J.ALLEN27 at 01:31 EDT I was not trying to be self-lauding Nevin ;-) The point of my comment was that it really wasn't Mike's idea, and Ralph's whole argument is completely silly. Mike did have a habit of calling and bothering a number of us who's phone numbers were known...through Ralph in my case...thanks Ralph. He made a point of calling at 11-12 at night too. I'm not sure who really brought it up, but between Nevin, Bill, me, and ...yes...Ralph and Gordon, somehow a meeting was instigated. And yes, so what. The organization is built on the backs of members and thier input, there was no IAAD to take credit for in Oct 89'. A bunch of us at the sh + w just came together, perhaps out of shear disgust over Atari and the market... boy it's actually gotten worse, imagine that...and it dawn on the collective mind that a professional group might be helpful to all concerned. We picked The board based on which individuals had an ice cubes chance in hell of actually being successful. Nathan and Gordon obviously had the most extensive relationships with Atari Corp. and were the natural choices for leadership roles. I happen to know that Ralph really wanted to see the creation of an instrument with which (he?) or someone could bludgeon Atari...for whatever seemingly good reason. That of course was silly, a conclusion we all came to...much to Ralphs disappointment no doubt. He still is thinking in those terms, and hence the apparent unhappiness with the "progess" made by the IAAD....like _ k anyone could ever move that beached blue whale we call Atari ;-) Especially by playing "rough"? Ralph still doesn't seem to see that Atari and it's rulers couldn't give a rats ass about Atari, or anything. So you can never shame them into action, no matter how hard you try. Ralph has to come to terms with the fact that "we", the membership, have to work with Atari, like it or not, and conduct ourselves accordingly. You just don't bite the hand that feeds you, and you sure don't bother when that hand is dead from the neck up and wouldn't notice even if you bit all it's fingers off...yuck, phwetewy. Nathan, if you wish to rephrase what I just said in a more palettable form and pass it along as my feelings on the matter, feel free. ------------ Category 75, Topic 17 Message 409 Sun Jun 09, 1991 JMGSOFT [George @ JMG] at 02:58 EDT I've long cancelled cat 26, and that's not about to change. PS - It was actually ME that first had the idea for the IAAD in a dream back in 1985... this same dream also involved two trained chimpanzees and a Swedish female hockey team. :-) Why I just said that, I don't know. ------------ Category 75, Topic 17 Message 411 Sun Jun 09, 1991 CHERRY.FONTS at 07:55 EDT In case anyone was wondering about the cryptic message from Bob Brodie in the Vancouver show topic: Ralph cancelled his promise to show up and aggravate everyone here. Did you threaten physical violence, Nathan? :-) Dorothy, the first paragraph of your message (#410) would be a good call-out for Nathan's collection. Please allow that particular anecdote to be made public in one form or another. Its message is extremely important to this "battle". When <sigh> will Ralph ever grow up or get a life? ..Todd ------------ Category 75, Topic 17 Message 414 Sun Jun 09, 1991 NEVIN-S at 09:52 EDT Well I just replied in Cat 26....I have no problem getting involved in this one. What I said is what I really think: who gives a flying frisbee about how the group was started. It is functioning nicely now and there is no reason to care about how it got started. Aside to Dorothy: I remember the meeting at WAACE. I asked Gordon after the meeting if I could write about it or not, and he said, "Sure go ahead!" So I did, and the STI folks put on that super aggressive headline....and I sure heard from some Atari developers on THAT article..! Oh well....it's all in the past. --Nevin ------------ Category 75, Topic 17 Message 416 Sun Jun 09, 1991 J.ALLEN27 at 16:18 EDT Bingo Dot, and frankly, Ralph still wants to bludgeon Atari and would still like "us" to do it. Problem is, we have to "live" with these people and just can't go around smacking them. I'm curious about the "big shakeup" thing. Alls quite on the western front from what I've seen. I think someones pulling his leg, perhaps on purpose just to be able to jump all over him. I don't seem to remember Kovacs being at the meeting, but then he's not a very memorable guy. It's amazing, some blood's in the water, and the sharks come a runnin'. And even Rod wanted someone to bludgeon Atari, hence the editorial license with Nevin's article. ------------ Category 75, Topic 17 Message 4 17 Sun Jun 09, 1991 NEVIN-S at 17:44 EDT Jim, I have also heard from very good sources that Atari is about to downsize once again. I think this will become evident in the near future. I don't have much of a problem with Ralph's reporting that (because I am sure he has some of the same sources as I do) but I do have a problem with the strange "riddle" way he does it. For example, saying something about the "TV man." Why not just say, "Joe Blow went on TV and said something bad and now there is a rumor that he will be fired or demoted." Or wait until the firing or demotion HAPPENS, and then say, "Joe Blow was demoted, apparently because he went on TV and said that the Atari machine was smelly." The paragraphs of riddles are stupid, and I have said so many times in Cat 26. --Nevin ------------ Category 75, Topi c 17 Message 419 Mon Jun 10, 1991 J.ALLEN27 at 00:11 EDT The only people I know are bullet proof are Sam, Leonard, Gary, Jack, Gregg, Bob, and Bill. Bob, and Bill's bulletproofness is always in question however ;-) So WHO went on TV. Did I miss something, a Computer Chronicles or some such show? Or was it the Today show? Or better yet 60 Minutes!!? And what was said? Downsize....folk folks if Atari were run by the numbers...like real businesses...they'd be a very different animal indeed. That sucker needs a shakeup. And since the factories are gone, it's only natural that those who were involved with that end of the business would be trimmed down. Now they just need a crew to arrange and monitor manufacturing contracts, and that takes far fewer people. It's nuts to make a big deal out of it, IBM fires more poeple every 5 minutes than Atari has ever had working for them. It's just Gregg making sure the ship floats while the others "play" businessman. ------------ Category 75, Topic 17 Message 420 Mon Jun 10, 1991 ISD [Nathan] at 08:06 EDT I beg to differ. The only ones bullet proof have the same last name and it starts with T, period!! ------------ Category 75, Topic 17 Message 421 Mon Jun 10, 1991 NEVIN-S at 09:39 EDT Nathan, I agree with you 100%...the only bullet proof people are the Tramiels. Nobody else. --Nevin ------------ Category 75, Topic 17 Message 422 Mon Jun 10, 1991 J.ALLEN27 at 13:00 EDT That sort of what I said....with some wishful thinking thrown in ;-) That still doesn't tell me who "TV guy" is? ------------ Category 75, Topic 17 Message 423 Mon Jun 10, 1991 W.PARKS3 [Dr. Bob] at 19:18 EDT It starts with "T" and ends with "E" and that spells "Trouble". Right here in River city! Bye: Dr. Bob ------------ Category 75, Topic 17 Message 424 Tue Jun 11, 1991 N.WEINRESS at 00:42 EDT Speaking of "TV", I was watching the news on our CBS station at 6:30 PM Sunday evening when I was presented with a actual, real, genuine ad from Atari...for Lynx. When I got up off the floor sat in my chair again, I continued to watch the news. Downsizing? Time to sell my stock. ------------ Category 75, Topic 17 Message 425 Tue Jun 11, 1991 J.ALLEN27 at 00:47 EDT Lynx ads run all the time on MTV and Nicolodean. ------------ Category 75, Topic 17 Message 426 Tue Jun 11, 1991 G.RICHARDSO1 [George] at 07:35 EDT Lynx adds have been running in the NYC area for a month or so now. The problem is that when you go out and buy one, it's usually bad. The other day the local Toys R Us (how do you send a backwards R? :-) ) had them stacked up on the customer service counter. A kid had exchanged his 3 times before deciding to get a Game Boy. The customer service person said that the defective rate was incredible, easily the worst product she had ever seen. With products like that, it's easy to see why they're downsizing. George Richardson Merlin Group, Inc. ------------ Category 75, Topic 17 Message 427 Tue Jun 11, 1991 NEVIN-S at 14:04 EDT George, that's sad to hear about the Lynx defective rate. Not surprising, but sad nonetheless... --Nevin ------------ Category 75, Topic 17 Message 428 Tue Jun 11, 1991 C.WALNUM1 [CLAY] at 20:26 EDT Dorothy: I'll probably end up writing to ST User for a copy. I'm already starting receive mail from the U.K. about the review, asking where they can buy the book. George: If you have a copy of the June St User, I'd be gald to buy it from you. ---Clay ------------ Category 75, Topic 17 Message 429 Tue Jun 11, 1991 J.TRAUTSCHOL [jtrautschold] at 22:45 EDT I wonder if Tittsler had anything to do with the shutting down of the Taiwan factory (or selling of it, as it were.) Atari sent him to Japan to shake things up, didn't they? John T. ------------ Category 75, Topic 17 Message 430 Tue Jun 11, 1991 ISD [Nathan] at 23:16 EDT Check the map John. Jim went to Japan is correct. The factory being sold in Taiwan is Tramiel all the way. ------------ Category 75, Topic 17 Message 431 Wed Jun 12, 1991 J.ALLEN27 at 02:03 EDT Jim is a hardware engineering manager, he's not involved with the plant sale. He is apparently working on the "Notebook"? So now that they sold the factories, who's building equipment? ------------ Category 75, Topic 17 Message 432 Wed Jun 12, 1991 JLS [John STanley] at 08:35 EDT Clay, call me (612-825-4215) or drop me a GEmail msg asap if you want me to pick up a copy of the June ST-User. (Local store carries them...) ... JLS ------------ Category 75, Topic 17 Message 433 Wed Jun 12, 1991 ISD [Nathan] at 09:30 EDT They sub-contract it out Jim. So, a) they pocket the cash from the sale of the factory (quite a few dollars I believe and b) they pay to manufacture exactly what they need as they need it. Of course this means that they have to prepare accurate budgets, projections, long term planning etc etc. Why does that thought scare me? :-) ------------ Category 75, Topic 17 Message 434 Wed Jun 12, 1991 NEVIN-S at 11:26 EDT Yes, they sold the factory for $60 Million and their stock went up 3/8ths the same day (about 5%). Of course, it has come down since. Atari has this little trick where each fiscal quarter they do SOMETHING so their earnings don't go down too much, when in reality they are falling like a brick. One month they refinance some bonds, the next month they value their 8 bits at $100 per computer, the next month they sell their factory...and all the while their sales are falling. --Nevin ------------ Category 75, Topic 17 Message 436 Wed Jun 12, 1991 WORDFLAIR [Lauren] at 13:43 EDT Right, Nevin. Another favorite trick is creative valuation of their inventory. Last time I looked carefully it was valued at over $150 million, virtually 75% of their net worth. As we all know they don't have complete products to ship so I don't know what they are counting. 8 bits, defective Lynx's, Microsoft Write's, Desksets, floppy drives, modems, monitors, but no CPU's. In reality, they should do a major write down on their inventory to correct it to true market value since I suspect that the majority of it is in obsolete goods. And by the way, it has been Greg Pratt who has come up with these clever quarterly dances to improve the earnings per share picture. I wonder who is doing it now. Pratt has been brilliant at making a halfway decent picture out of a financial disaster. Lauren ------------ Category 75, Topic 17 Message 437 Wed Jun 12, 1991 C.WALNUM1 [CLAY] at 23:24 EDT John: Thanks. Will send you email. ---Clay ------------ Category 75, Topic 17 Message 438 Thu Jun 13, 1991 ISD [Nathan] at 10:21 EDT The word is plummeting, not falling. (sigh) ------------ Category 75, Topic 17 Message 439 Thu Jun 13, 1991 J.ALLEN27 at 10:54 EDT The word is....SPATTER!!! Which is what happens at the end of the fall...er, plummet ;-) ------------ Category 75, Topic 17 Message 440 Thu Jun 13, 1991 J.TRAUTSCHOL [jtrautschold] at 22:32 EDT Well geeze...I know the difference between Taiwan and Japan Nathan! :-) My point in the comment was that Jim was sent supposedly to work out production problems (i.e. Class B cert) and that part of the duties was to "fix" actual design problems in Japan, but to also "fix" production problem in Taiwan. I might be wrong on that. My first thought was that Taiwan was sold for two reasons...too many production problems resulting in high return rates (such as the problems I've heard about the Lynx) and secondly the cost of owning/maintaining that factory. John T. P.S. Got the IAAD pins today Nathan. NICE! Very classy... The work you put in on those are much appreciated and I'll be looking forward to wearing mine at the next show (for me that'll probably be Indianapolis.) Thank s again!!! ------------ Category 75, Topic 17 Message 441 Thu Jun 13, 1991 ISD [Nathan] at 23:23 EDT You are most welcome re: the pins. My guess on the factory, money in pocket vs not making full use of the production capabilities. ------------ Category 75, Topic 17 Message 442 Thu Jun 13, 1991 J.ALLEN27 at 23:58 EDT So who's making the STEs now?....Or is anyone (ewe, scaaaaary)? ------------ Category 75, Topic 17 Message 443 Fri Jun 14, 1991 JLS [John STanley] at 07:29 EDT Atari "downsizing" again? <groan...> Much more of this and they'll be able to run the whole US operation from inside a shoebox.. and sublet the extra s pace... :^/ ------------ Category 75, Topic 17 Message 444 Fri Jun 14, 1991 WORDFLAIR [Lauren] at 14:16 EDT Rumor has it that Bill Rehbock, Art Morgan and a couple of others are now on the Atari Corp payroll vs. Atari US and therefore will spread their talents over the problems of Atari International as well. :-) Lauren ------------ Category 75, Topic 17 Message 445 Sat Jun 15, 1991 J.ALLEN27 at 03:56 EDT Holy moly Batman, Gregg's in deeeeeep dewdew!!! Definitely wouldn't want to be anywhere near his shoes. Sounds like Bill and Bob are both getting spread way too thin....they'll both snap eventually. ------------ Category 75, Topic 17 Message 446 Sun Jun 16, 1991 J.CRASWELL at 17:47 EDT On the birth of the IAAD. I saw it as a meeting of Gordon and Ralph who thought they could form a group against Atari. Or at least to tell Atari how to behave etc. Also don't forget that Gordon nominated himself and (I think) elected himself as well. This put me off a lot and it was only later that I payed much attention to the IAAD. Thanks to Nathen I realized that the IAAD was not a group of Total kooks. Oh and don't forget the CLASSIC moment of the meeting when Nevin said "If you don't want the press to report on the activities of the IAAD may I suggest that you don't invite them to the meetings?" The IAAD pins by the way look nice! ------------ Category 75, Topic 17 Message 447 Tue Jun 18, 1991 ISD [Nathan] at 20:51 EDT :-) ------------ Category 75, Topic 17 Message 451 Sun Jun 23, 1991 CRAIG.S.THOM at 19:21 EDT That was excellent. Where did you find it? Can we have a contest for doing ST Report copies? Can we, huh, can we? Please please please? ------------ Category 75, Topic 17 Message 453 Sun Jun 23, 1991 NEVIN-S at 21:41 EDT Dorothy, I don't know why but I agree with you that Ralph does NOT like Nathan. I have no idea why. Nathan, did you every do anything to Ralph? I just don't get it... --Nevin ------------ Category 75, Topic 17 Message 455 Sun Jun 23, 1991 G.RICHARDSO1 [George] at 23:31 EDT Ralph sits on a keyboard? No wonder he can't spell! Nathan, I don't think you should consider resigning over this. Ralph has attacked you and you have *every* right to defend youself in whatever fashion you decide is needed. You've always presented a reasoned outlook on things when someone else (myself for instance) would blow their tops. Personally, I'd like the whole IAAD to gang up on Ralph, but I suspect that he would just see that as justification of his attitude and a verification of his importance in the Atari community. Dorothy, that post reads just *too* much like Ralph. You don't suppose Ralph actually did it, do you? George Richardson Merlin Group, Inc. ------------ Category 75, Topic 17 Message 457 Mon Jun 24, 1991 C.WALNUM1 [CLAY] at 00:30 EDT Nathan: I agree with you about Atari bashing. All it does is hasten The End. Atari sure doesn't listen, so all bashing does is chase off potential customers. On the other hand, sometimes it's really hard not to let your feelings be known. Frustration has to be vented somewhere. I have a feeling that the developers who do the most bashing are the ones who have already given up; they feel they have nothing to lose. It's been my policy for quite a while not to bash Atari in public. Get me on the phone, though, and we can curse them to hell and back again. You're talking to the guy who lost a job he loved because of those people. But, on the bright side, I'm much happier doing what I'm doing now, so they did me a favor. Taylor Ridge Books is just a hobby, you know. I make my living writing PC and Nintendo books. :-) ---Clay ------------ Category 75, Topic 17 Message 459 Mon Jun 24, 1991 C.F.JOHNSON [CodeHead] at 01:25 EDT About bashing Atari: I simply couldn't hold in my feelings any more, and they came out in public. That's the way it goes sometimes; and I'm not sorry about it. Over on Compuserve, someone likened the unreasoning devotion that some users have towards Atari to the way some abused children feel toward their abusing parents -- a very sad, but very on-target analysis, I think. It's absolutely amazing how some people will continue to make excuses for Atari, even after being abused and lied to for _years_ -- they simply don't want to see or hear the truth. (And there is none so blind as he who will not see.) As for Atari's new "vertical market" approach -- I'm sorry, but I simply don't see how focussing on a very narrow section of the market is going to help the majority of ST/TT developers. It _might_ help the few who have DTP applications (and even that is open to debate, given Atari's incredible marketing expertise [note to George G.: yes, I was being sarcastic there! :) ]), but the fact is that focussing on that narrow market is a desperation move, pure and simple. To extrapolate from that and say that maybe eventually the market will expand beyond vertical applications is to ignore the last five years. Let's not forget that at one time, Atari _did_ have a market outside of DTP applications -- and they blew it, big-time. Do you really think they're going to recapture that larger market by _scaling down_? When they've already _lost it_, and burned an incredible number of bridges in the process? The hardest thing in the world is to regain credibility once it's been lost, and I just don't believe Atari has either the means or the will to do it. In any case, I've said all I'll be saying about this issue in public. - Charles P.S. Clay: The End has already come and gone...we're all living in the ruins of the aftermath. Tom Hudson, Dan Moore, and Steve Ahlstrom had the right idea -- they got out while the getting was good. ------------ Category 75, Topic 17 Message 460 Mon Jun 24, 1991 MINDOVERMIDI at 04:46 EDT Well, I think also that something is better than nothing. IBM wouldn't be so big if they didn't have the business market cornered, which filters down to people buying an IBM to use at home so they can play games AND do work at home. I still don't have much hope for Atari growth, however. I'm glad I don't read STR. Easier to keep a good attitude. (Picture blind man in passenger seat, happily sipping Big Gulp and talking about baseball, unawares that the vehicle's driver died of a heart attack a few miles back...) :) ------------ Category 75, Topic 17 Message 461 Mon Jun 24, 1991 CHERRY.FONTS at 08:16 EDT For the record, I cannot stand the excrement that spews from the fingertips of Ralph Mariano (Hi Ralph). His unique style of trash has already caused MANY naive ST owners to reconsider their choice of machines. Our customers! Lloyd is no better. He lives to argue -- to an extent that is almost inhuman. Where is the purpose in that? What a waste of time. If anyone can think of a way for me to express my disapproval of ST Report in public without a) my having to read STR, b) my having to waste time in confrontations with either Ralph or Lloyd, or c) my doing any damage to the Atari market or my own buisness, please let me know! ..Todd ------------ Category 75, Topic 17 Message 463 Mon Jun 24, 1991 ICDINC at 11:18 EDT Dot, Looks like something John Eidsvog would do. (Come on John, fess up.) (oops Eidsvoog) Just a hunch. - TOM - ------------ Category 75, Topic 17 Message 464 Mon Jun 24, 1991 WORDFLAIR [Lauren] at 14:38 EDT I have only had a couple of run-ins with Ralph quoting me on so mething that we never talked about. Otherwise, my tactic is to ignore him (I never even read ST Report)but be friendly but close mouthed in public. Seems to work ok. Just one thing in his defense she said ducking tomatoes. Once, I heard through the grapevine that he was approached by a degenerate type whose name I won't mention, trying to spread dirt about Goldleaf. Ralph called me, we talked about the situation--I set him straight on the facts- and nothing was published. So in the one instance I had to deal with him, he was reasonable. I didn't even have to threaten legal action like slander/libel, etc. Just for some perspective. Lauren ------------ Category 75, Topic 17 Message 466 Mon Jun 24, 1991 J.EIDSVOOG1 [CodeHead] at 19:27 EDT Tom, Come on...I wouldn't ridicule Ralph like that. Didn't you know that Ralph and I are good buddies. Why, Ralph was the one who introduced me to Leonard (this is no lie!). <grin> John ------------ Category 75, Topic 17 Message 468 Mon Jun 24, 1991 G.RICHARDSO1 [George] at 22:17 EDT Many people don't know about ABCO & ST Report. George ------------ Category 75, Topic 17 Message 470 Mon Jun 24, 1991 T.GILL7 [GILLT] at 22:52 EDT The last time Pulleymonia infected one of my discussions I decided that the only way to halt the spread was is to vaccinate with a strong dose of humor and rest... Trouble is, the bug keeps getting into everything! ------------ Category 75, Topic 17 Message 471 Mon Jun 24, 1991 ISD [Nathan] at 23:38 EDT :-) Good point Tyson. And interesting aspect re: people that read ST Report not knowing that they are one and the same as ABCO. Hmm ------------ Category 75, Topic 17 Message 472 Tue Jun 25, 1991 W.PARKS3 [Dr. Bob] at 00:14 EDT A few years back, we used to deal with "ABCO" - spelled the same way, but it was not in Jacksonville, not in FLA, and as far as I know didn't carry any Atari products.... in fact, we even won a Hawaii vacation from them... oops... that may have been from Softsel- it's been a wee bit o time ;) I don't know if that ABCO is still named ABCO or not but they were most certainly larger than Ralph's operation. I hope they're not still using the name ABCO... Bye: Dr. Bob ------------ Category 75, Topic 17 Message 473 Tue Jun 25, 1991 C.WALNUM1 [CLAY] at 00:43 EDT Dorothy: Thanks for missing your old job. It was fun while it lasted. I know what you mean about the cost of business. I can't _believe_ how much money I have to send out the door. It seems like everyone makes money on C-MANSHIP but me. <GRUMBLE> Charles: Good grief! I must've hit a button <G>. Did you think my post was aimed at you in particular? I wouldn't do that. We're buddies, remember? I don't think any of us are blind. I doubt any Atari developer can keep the faith. I just don't think there's anything to be gained by saying what we know in public. It hurts whatever sales we have left. As for the The End, in the sense you mean it, yes, it's come and gone. I gave up on Atari a long time ago. However, I still have fun with my machine, enjoy programming it, and get a kick out of selling C-MANSHIP. (I'm even 3/4 of the way through with a new book for Taylor Ridge Books, which probably makes me an idiot. But, hey, I never said I was smart. <G>) The End I was referring to was when all of us actually stop what we're doing. Granted, there's not many of us left, so that time probably isn't far away. You're not mad at me, are you? ---Clay ------------ Category 75, Topic 17 Message 474 Tue Jun 25, 1991 C.F.JOHNSON [CodeHead] at 01:48 EDT Clay, Mad at you? No! The "he who will not see" wasn't directed at you; I was talking about the folks who insist on making excuses for Atari, and describe any criticism as "Atari-bashing" or "whining." And I agree with you about airing grievances in public. This is the last time I'll do that. You're right, it doesn't serve any purpose, except to blow off steam. Atari certainly isn't going to change their way of doing business because of something I (or anyone else) says, and I never thought they would. On to more pleasant topics -- boy, this Mac IIsi is a _nice_ machine. Makes the TT look like the sluggard it is. Even running at 20MHz in 256-color mode, and with a _much_ larger screen area, its screen redraws leave the TT choking in the dust. :) (Now Jay will probably tell me again what an idiot I am for enjoying it.) - Charles ------------ Category 75, Topic 17 Message 475 Tue Jun 25, 1991 ISD [Nathan] at 08:26 EDT I don't know what Jay will say but don't try to take away Davids II fx cause you'll lose your fingers. :-) I am referring to our David, by the way, not to confuse the issue. :-) ------------ Category 75, Topic 17 Message 478 Tue Jun 25, 1991 J.TRAUTSCHOL [jtrautschold] at 22:11 EDT Ummm....well....I almost hate to admit this, but recently Ralph downloaded and ran a press release about Missionware Software that I had posted on the various services. I actually got a couple of direct sales out of it. People wrote and said "I read about your (program name here) in ST Report and want to order one. Here's my check for $xx.xx." John T. ------------ Category 75, Topic 17 Message 479 Tue Jun 25, 1991 NEVIN-S at 23:01 EDT John, I believe that. The same is true with Tracker/ST. ST Report should be used by developers for press releases and just try to ignore all the other stuff. The truth is that both on-line mags are a great way to get free publicity all around the world. --Nevin ------------ Category 75, Topic 17 Message 481 Tue Jun 25, 1991 D.BECKEMEYER [David @ BDT] at 23:33 EDT Regarding Atari bashing, anyone who spent time on Usenet around 1987 knows that I used to be notorious for it. T hey really pissed me off in those days. There was potential then. Now I sometimes still feel the need to bash, but I can do it here, where it is (somewhat) less public. That's one thing I think a lot of us have gained from the IAAD -- we can vent a little when we need to and we usually aren't even pounded into the ground for it :-) On the other hand, I agree (now) that Atari will never listen and there are no positive results from bashing them vigorously in public. Nothing changes. Unfortunately, I don't believe that changing platforms is a sure quick-fix. It's easy to say but hard to do. There are some serious bucks to compete with in the DOS/Windows/Unix/Sun/Mac/Next/X world. Niche markets and services are the only hope for small companies. Regarding Atari and niche markets, keep in mind that this DTP thing is not the first time they've tried it. Remember the ATW? Remember the "Atari Business Centers" and the supposed push into the "business market"? The big "governemnt contracting" disaster? And so on... - David ------------ Category 75, Topic 17 Message 482 Wed Jun 26, 1991 C.F.JOHNSON [CodeHead] at 01:11 EDT Yes, folks, the leaks to Ralph are continuing. He also called CodeHead today to brag about reading the posts in this Category. I honestly don't understand what would compel a developer to do this. But rest assured that if I ever find out who you are, I will do my level best to make your so-called "life" extremely miserable. - Charles ------------ Category 75, Topic 17 Message 483 Wed Jun 26, 1991 DAVESMALL at 02:24 EDT Here's another developer saying that Ralph indeed is reading this stuff. -- thanks, Dave ------------ Category 75, Topic 17 Message 484 Wed Jun 26, 1991 ISD [Nathan] at 08:52 EDT Perhaps we can approach this in another fashion that is less likely to send everyone running for shelter. While I agree that if you have a new product annoucement you should definitely make it available to the online mags and in general kibbitz with these people regarding your own products, thats about the only reason that I can think of to associate with them. Now my curiousity is aroused. Quite a few of us receive calls from Ralph on a regular basis. I am always careful not only what I say to Ralph but how I respond to anything that he says as he is a past expert at using what you don't say in his own special fashion. He is also amazing at insinuating himself into any issue if possible, the SFAN is a classic example. And when SFAN gets stuff from Atari Ralph will imply that he was instrumental in their doing so. The fact is that when he called and pushed on it, after Bills first call back to Michael after the now notorious fax, he is exactly what caused the delay. (sigh) So, how many of you download ST Report on a regular basis? How many of you post in cat 26? And how many of you feel that St Report is filling a legitimate need in the Atari community? I want to know if I'm the idiot here. If a majority of you feel that Ralph is adding some constructive benefit to the sales of your products, tell me please. Personally I feel he hurts us and the Atari market in general, every single issue. If you feel that I am wrong, I will leave him alone but I would appreciate a consenses please. Thank you. ------------ Category 75, Topic 17 Message 485 Wed Jun 26, 1991 ICDINC at 11:14 EDT I haven't downloaded it for a couple of months. I used to regularly. It is just too low on the priority list anymore .... unless I see some ICD important news in the headline. - TOM -

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