MEMORY LANE

Category 75, Topic 16
Message 578 Sat Jun 22, 1991
N.WEINRESS at 02:40 EDT

Ok, I got a satellite dish. Someone tell where to point it. (Not _put_ it, Dr.
Bob)
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Category 75, Topic 16
Message 579 Sat Jun 22, 1991
ISD [Nathan] at 11:06 EDT

Don't put in anywhere yet. :-) I did speak to Michael and basically besides
all of the above, he currently just needs a few programs to help him in layout
and creation ie; Lexicor's stuff. Once he is up and running he will ask for
anything we have and he will cover the Atari. He is an Atari person from way
back and his wife teaches in elementary school on STe's that were "donated" to
the school by Atari once upon a time.
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Category 75, Topic 16
Message 581 Sat Jun 22, 1991
STEVE-B at 14:43 EDT

Lee, Fax me too. Steve Barker 801-628-5764.
Later,
__Steve B.__

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Category 75, Topic 16
Message 582 Sat Jun 22, 1991
L.SEILER at 19:50 EDT

OK STEVE-B I will fax you a copy on monday.

Lee
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Category 75, Topic 16
Message 583 Sun Jun 23, 1991
C.F.JOHNSON [CodeHead] at 00:27 EDT

The letter was absolutely appalling, in what it reveals about Atari's
business practices. Appalling, but unfortunately not surprising at all.


- Charles

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Category 75, Topic 16
Message 584 Sun Jun 23, 1991
L.SEILER at 05:11 EDT

CHARLES,


Now you no why I have not been very simpathetic in my reactions to B.R.

For some reason from the first time I met the guy I have had much the
same problems, and to some extent worse. All I ever expected was a no nonsense
relationship with ATARI.

I don't think I have ever gotten a stright answer from B.R nor can I
recall any time that any commitment made to my company was ever keepted on
time.

I can/t really say that I have faced any dishonesty un- till the last
few weeks. I know the comment posted
here about SFAN not being a leagle
business was sourced from B.R. The point is that if he did not check his facts
then it was wrong to make any mention of this, and had he actually checked he
would have found that SFAN was ligit as far as having incorporated. If B.R
Knew this then it was a Lie to say otherwise. And I know that he has spread
this un truth around ATARI because I hered this from another source.


Well I hope that this last incendent has shown hime that he simply can
not continue in the same fashion.

Bye for now

Lee
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Category 75, Topic 16
Message 586 Sun Jun 23, 1991
C.F.JOHNSON [CodeHead] at 11:45 EDT

Lee,

B.R. has now promised to send us the latest version of the TT ROMs _five_
times, and we still don't have them.

I think it's important to keep in mind that Bill doesn't do _anything_
without Leonard's approval. I can't help but think that the horrifying
attitudes exposed by that letter originate in Leonard's office, not with Bill.
Bill doesn't have an original thought of his own.

By the way, this letter mentions an Atari "black list" of developers. I've
been hearing rumors of something like this from other people; does anyone know
anything more specific?

- Charles

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Category 75,
Topic 16
Message 588 Sun Jun 23, 1991
ISD [Nathan] at 14:42 EDT

NO BLACK LIST!! Geez. Bill had a list on the wall of his office that anyone
could view that indicated a direction that Atari wished to take, in his
opinion. This list was aimed at possible big-name software houses, porting to
Atari platform and possible current Atari Devs that could actually do the
work. At least I think thats what Bill said when I asked him about that
particular list. :-) If there would have been a black list of any kind, you
better believe I would have known about it from one source or another. My
sources within Atari worldwide are at least as good as Ralphs, after all. :-)
------------
Category 75, Topic 16
Message 589 Sun Jun 23, 1991
C.WALTERS1 [Chet] at 21:07 EDT

Sheeit! You don't thing Ralf would've published a black list long long ago if
there was such a thing. Lee - thanks for the info a while back on .PNT files.
Fax is (216) - 545 - 1007 if it ain't too late.

Dorothy (oooooo i love it when I get to correct Dorothy which ain't often)...
the word is piqued not peaked.... just had to do it.... just had to......

______Chet at \/\/iz\/\/orks! ;^{)
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Category 75, Topic 16
Message 591 Mon Jun 24, 1991
L.SEILER at 01:46 EDT

I AM NOT SURE that all of what Bill does originates in Leanords office?
I am sure that at least part of the problem is that things don't originate in
Leanords office and maby should
I will be content if I just get stright developer suppor
t and no bull
shit from bill. I don't generally carry a grudge, so I am quite willing to do
business with ATARI, but for the moment Bill is still caught in one big lie,
If he doese it again It will be the last Lie he tells as an ATARI employee.
On the other hand He may get lucky and never lie to me again.

DA I will send you the Fax Monday some time Noon my time.

Now about the black list.

This is real and I have checked with someone I trust at ATARI. The way
it works so far as I can Tell is this: If a Developer does "something" (?)
that angers Bill then he tells Gail to make a criptic not in the Developers
"Doseya(folder)" from that time on un till the Developer gains redemption any
request for support what ever they may be are placed in a pile which is never
used, while all others get what ever the current priority Bill has set up.
I have been on this Black List twice, the first time I had a casheers
check sit for Six weeks untill I sent a second check and wrote a Letter
Helping provide documentation to help ATARI close down their PRIATE DEALER
"ZYPHER" in berkeley.
Then suddenly the lost check was found and I started getting my news
letter, I started getting through on the phone etc...abd...so on.
The second time was over an .ACC one of my developers wrote on expressed
request from Bill and which he promised all neccessary paperwork and money.
Untill I talked to my special back door contact to Sam and this SFAN deal
erupted I could not get a call throught, May company was thretened with a copy-
right suite from Bill for the xcvontrole pannel now just released
and a few other choice things.

Now suddenly He is calling me as if we were old friends and talking
about how wounderfull things he is doing for ATARI as if it was his Idea to
Support SFAN in the first place.

I belive there is a black list as such and it is policyy with Bill. I

can't offer anyy of you proof nor would I have ever mentioned it here but for
our confidentiality.

In myy next post I will tell you all what my goals for my company are and how
I expect to attain them, I will out line what I have done thus far and how
effective my efforts have been.

Lee
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Category 75, Topic 16
Message 593 Mon Jun 24, 1991
J.EIDSVOOG1 [CodeHead] at 05:03 EDT

Lee,

I certainly don't want the members to get all upset and start a big hopeless
thread again, but you should be aware that this Cat may not be as confidential
as you think.

We have had definite confirmed leaks here in the past. Since there was no way
to determine where they came from, essentially nothing has changed. The same
members (and many more) are still present here and may still be passing
information to Ralph. If just that now Ralph does not reveal that he gets the
information.

John
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Category 75, Topic 16
Message 594 Mon Jun 24, 1991
CHERRY.FONTS at 08:16 EDT

Here's an Atari problem I'd like to hear some opinions on. I haven't heard
anyone else mention it so I assume it only means something to me and my
business.

Atari's FSMGDOS only loads Ultrascript/IBM format fonts. I've asked Bill
Rehbok for the format so I can port my library over and support their system
(and GREATLY broaden my potential userbase), but Bill just shrugs and says
they didn't purchase the font format so they don't know it and couldn't
possibly give it to me.

It seems to me that they made a big mistake in not acquiring that font format.
They (we) need a global font and printer driver system like the Mac has and
FSM isn't all that bad as far as font management goes. It has nicely hinted
screen representations of its printer fonts which is a very late FIRST in
Atari kingdom. But without third party font support, it'll NEVER be accepted

as a serious alternative to proprietary font/printer systems. (Yes, Nathan, I
realise you couldn't give a damn.)

At this point I'm not too sure how many applications are going to support it.
It seems to me that WordFlair II is the only one so far and I can see those
Wordflair II users begging for a change from Lucida after about 4 days. In
other words, there is potentially a HUGE market for me and other type vendors.
A market that I can't even touch without a little more effort on behalf of
Atari. How can they be convinced to obtain and release that format
specification to their developers? Bill R.'s replies are sometimes terse,
sometimes partonising, never pleasant, and always reeking of the brick wall
syndrome. Is there someone else I should be talking to at Atari?

..Todd @ Cherry


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Category 75, Topic 16
Message 595 Mon Jun 24, 1991
ISD [Nathan] at 09:37 EDT

Yup, talk to Leonard Todd. Be adviced that he considers himself an expert in
DTP and once asked me to help him talk DMC into changing over to GDOS. This
was last Duesseldorf. I told him to take a look around instead. Almost anyone
showing anything, did so from Calamus. :-) He dropped the subject. :-)

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Category 75, Topic 16
Message 596 Mon Jun 24, 1991
J.EIDSVOOG1 [CodeHead] at 11:02 EDT

Nathan,

Leonard Todd? Don't you mean Leonard Tramiel? <grin>

John
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Category 75, Topic 16
Message 597 Mon Jun 24, 1991
ICDINC at 11:10 EDT

"PARANOIA STRIKES IAAD!" (Headlines for Ralphs next Report.)

Lee, you are getting the same shitty service that all the rest of us get from
Atari. I seriously doubt Atari is organized well enough to have a "black
list".

I think Bill is just one of those overworked optimists (after all he hired on
with Atari) that cannot possibly fulfill all of his promisses. THe good
intentions are there.

With Atari, the "squeaky wheel gets the grease". So make lots of noise
anytime you want anything.

If anyone is getting great service from Atari, I would like to hear about it.
Then I would believe that there is a black list.

- TOM -
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Category 75, Topic 16
Message 598 Mon Jun 24, 1991

DOUG.W at 21:28 EDT

Todd,
Why don't you write some GDOS screen and printer drivers which use Calamus
fonts? That'd solve the problem nicely! :-)

--Doug
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Category 75, Topic 16
Message 599 Mon Jun 24, 1991
ISD [Nathan] at 21:38 EDT

GDOS screen fonts ARRRGHHH chhhat phwet. :-) Talk about taking one rather
large step backwards. :-)
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Category 75, Topic 16
Message 600 Mon Jun 24, 1991
DOUG.W at 21:58 EDT

Nathan,
What I mean is to use Calamus outline fonts onscreen and for printing, much
like FSM GDOS, but with the current GDOS and a known font format. This would
allow GDOS applications to have the same beautiful on-screen and printed fonts
at Calamus has now.

--Doug
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Category 75, Topic 16
Message 601 Mon Jun 24, 1991
C.DAYMON at 23:33 EDT

Todd @ Cherry,
The best source of information on what is happening with FSM seems to be
Dennis Fung. I've spoken to him several times and he has been very helpful.
As I've stated before, talking to Rehbock is a waste of time. He is NOT, as
someone recently implied, overworked. (Except for a pair of chapped lips and
a sore back from bending over to kiss Leonard's ass!) Bill spends most of his
time playing with every new toy he can get his hand on and arranging 'deals'
for his 'friends'. Take the printing fiasco of CEPS because Bill managed to
pass the printing job off to a friend in Chicago rather than having it done
locally. If you want to get Rehbock to do something, you've got to go round
him to insure that others know he's expected to get it done. If he's your
only contact, it'll only get done if he feels like it.

-Craig
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Category 75, Topic 16
Message 602 Mon Jun 24, 1991
ISD [Nathan] at 23:36 EDT

Oops, sorry Doug, I misunderstood.
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Category 75, Topic 16
Message 603 Tue Jun 25, 1991
L.SEILER at 01:12 EDT

THANKS TO ALL,

You have confirmed what I had thought for the most part. and I agree
pretty much. You will find I tend to be dorect and to the point.

I sent out the fax to the last of you who requested it.

Un less there is something else on the subject I have nothing much to say as
to why I believe what I do.

I do have some news about the SFAN situation. To day I got a call from
Mr. Kelley,,,was he steamed. As you may know OLe Ralph got some sort of
confirmation from SAM T that atari had thrown their hat into the ring. Well it
seams that is all they are going to do. Mr. Kelly called Bill R to see what
the arrangements would be for the TT and got hit with ?...you guessed it "
More documentation please!!" a letter from the STAR Trek personana was not
enough, now BILL wants Letters from other Heads of corporations that are
associated with SFAN. it appears that BILL insist that the people at and in
support of SFAN jump through some more Hoops be for He authorizes anyy support
for The SFAN?
I can't imagin a worst person to be in the developer support job than the
one that is there now. It is no wounder that they have such a bad image!

Thats it for now. I will post my palns and future plans here in a dayy or so,
I have to go to a Computer graphics conf. in Sana Clara tommorrow so I will
not be back up for a while.

Lee
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Category 75, Topic 16
Message 604 Tue Jun 25, 1991
MINDOVERMIDI at 05:59 EDT

Todd, I could probably break that font format for you... :)
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Category 75, Topic 16
Message 605 Tue Jun 25, 1991
ISD [Nathan] at 08:23 EDT

Lee, what this? Ralph confirmed Atari's participation with Sam??? How the hell
does Ralph enter into this picture? (sigh) You'll learn.
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Category 75, Topic 16
Message 606 Tue Jun 25, 1991
C.F.JOHNSON [CodeHead] at 21:28 EDT

Todd,

I agree 1000%. The fact that Atari didn't even license the font format for
FSMGDOS from Imagen is exceedingly stupid. (How come I'm not surprised? It
probably would have cost them some money.) Can FSMGDOS use Postscript Type 1
fonts, or is Imagen's proprietary format the only game in town?

- Charles

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Category 75, Topic 16
Message 607 Wed Jun 26, 1991
DAVESMALL at 02:10 EDT

It is rather interesting how Ralph ends up in some sort of influential
position. I'm positive what's written here gets back to him daily to weekly
timeframe, from what I see. It's just a shame he seems to use it negatively.

Let's all chip in and buy him another brand computer.

-- thanks, Dave / Gadgets
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Category 75, Topic 16
Message 608 Wed Jun 26, 1991
WUZTEK.OPI [Paul Wu] at 04:35 EDT

Todd,

Isn't Ultrascript font Adobe type 1 or type 3 font compatible? You must know
that the Type 1 font spec is now public domain (or at least obtainable from
Adobe).

Just a thought...

Paul

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Category 75, Topic 16
Message 609 Thu Jun 27, 1991
L.SEILER at 01:46 EDT

Nathin,
The way that Ol'e Ralph got involved, I understand, is that Mr. Kelley
(a long time Geni-er) called him? and that Ralph called Sam to confirm the
denighial (sic) of equipment by Rehbock.
I found out about the second refusal to deliver (based on lack of self
ligitimizing documents) by Rehbock, when Mr. Kelly called Me and Rio to see if
we were go
ing to come through our selves. Which we are, the computer is on
it's way from up north as we speak.
As you can see by the letter from Mr. Kelly and Ralphs News story,
something happned in the translation. I can't complain about the pat on the
back Lexicor got, but the story was not true as you all know. This is one of
those cases where for some reason Ralph decided that honey and kisses would be
better than a kick in the Ass.
I have put about as much effort and time as I can in this for the
moment, so unless any of you want or need furthor information I won't touch on
this issue again.
By the way I don't think any one here has told Ralph any thing in this
case, WWhat I have hered from ralph sounded like it came from rehbock and Mr.
kelley?
Tommorrow I will post news from the Computer graphics Co
nference in
Santa Clara that I attended Today.

Lee
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Category 75, Topic 16
Message 610 Thu Jun 27, 1991
ISD [Nathan] at 10:10 EDT

I'd be interested to hear about that show Lee, thanks. I also assumed that
Ralph got his info from Atari and Michael by the way. :-)
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Category 75, Topic 16
Message 611 Fri Jun 28, 1991
L.SEILER at 00:30 EDT

NATHIN,

I guessed that by your comments, I don't think that SFAN is going to
happen with ATARI?. Rehbock according to Kelley made even more demands in
Sam's name. I have no way of knowing just what is really going on. We will
provide one TT and an assortment of software just on general principal. It
will be a low cost lease for 6 month then pay for it or ret
urn it.

Lee
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Category 75, Topic 16
Message 612 Fri Jun 28, 1991
J.ALLEN27 at 02:17 EDT

Atari is so silly. When ever we see one of the Tramiels at shows from now on,
we should make it a point to just point and laugh.

I don't think there is a blacklist, but there definitely is a shit list and
I've been on it more than once. But greasy wheels usually get greased and mine
finally did, signed, sealed, and in my file cabinet. I never thought I'd see
the day, but they did sign it. Now when I start selling this monster, I'll be
back on the SL for making the TT look like a turtle... non-Ninja variety.
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Category 75, Topic 16
Message 613 Fri Jun 28, 1991
J.PIERSTORFF [J.PIERSTORFF] at 02:44 EDT

Guys,

The Ultrascript IBM font that FSMGDOS uses is not like anything else, type 1
or otherwise. If FSMGDOS actually does get released, I'm sure we'll see some
conversion programs. :->

Jay Pierstorff
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Category 75, Topic 16
Message 614 Fri Jun 28, 1991
CHERRY.FONTS at 05:03 EDT

Paul,
Unfortunately Atari (and Imagen too for that matter) didn't see fit to use a
standard typeface format such as Type-1 or Truetype for FSM-GDOS. They didn't
even use the Atari Ultrascript font format, they used the IBM format. This
isn't to say that's entirely bad. As a matter of fact, I'm thoroughly
impressed with FSM9's (not Ultrascripts') ability to render low resolution
type from a given outline. It's obvious they have come a long way with
resolution hints. Now, just tell me the damn format! I am a registered
developer after all. If they'd have used type-1, I'd have been happy. I
eat,sleep and breath the type-1 spec. and even the amazing new Truetype
format. I'd have been happy indeed..

Darren,
The FSM format is likel
y too complex to crack without spending far too much
time at it. I can't afford to hire a programmer for a year. It's not a simple
format like Calamus fonts, and as Nathan can attest, even that hasn't been
_perfectly_ cracked by 3rd party editors yet. There are hinting tables and
character-string subroutines that complicate the format to no end. You have
to know how the interpreter deals with the features in order to figure how
what the features even look like. It's tough. If they don't want to _give_
me the font format, then I'm not going to waste any time trying to support
their product. I've made that mistake once (or twice) already.

Jay,
I've heard about an impending converter for the fonts and I'm not
interested. I have one FontHurter already and it can't even give me a
destination font that prints the same size as the source font, not to mention
the fact that it ignores my [hard won] spacing information and usually
crashes before finishing the job. No thanks. If you want something done
right, do it yourself - I say. I'd also like to have fonts ready by the time
FSM is released. Yeah right.

Doug W.,
I think it'd be easier to convince Atari to release that font format than
to recreate FSM from scratch.

If I sound a bit growly about this, it's because I see the font world moving
ahead at lightspeed and leaving my ST wondering when it can get a piece of
the technology. That's just plain frustrating to a type maker who happens to
like the ST.

..Todd
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Category 75, Topic 16

Message 615 Fri Jun 28, 1991
ISD [Nathan] at 22:22 EDT

No Lee, I hope like hell that not only Atari participates, and I did tell
Atari so, speaking personally, not on behalf of the IAAD but I also hope that
Michael does get his act together. :-)

And since this weeks ST Rag states that the IAAD has supported SFAN by
contributing a TT, please clarify that it was you that did so, not the IAAD.
Brownie points for you. I think this is probably the best way to handle Ralphs
misinformation so post in cat 26, top 2 and clear up the confusion. Next Ralph
will try speaking on behalf of the IAAD. If you choose not to do so, I will,
but it will get ugly fast as Ralph, Lloyd and now Bill Ryal your CIS rep I
believe, are blatantly after my ass cause I just don't respect them enough. :-
)
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Category 75, Topic 16
Message 616 Sat Jun 29, 1991
J.ALLEN27
at 02:57 EDT

Do what you godda do Nathan ;-)
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Category 75, Topic 16
Message 617 Sun Jun 30, 1991
L.SEILER at 07:17 EDT

NATHIN,

I havent seen the post you are referring to? but I would be happy to
make any clarification you like. I haven't talked to Ralph for some time so I
don't know where he is getting his information?
I don't think I understand your whole message,,,what do you mean "hope
Mickael gets his act to geather?" The last I heard he had arranged for a tel-
conference between Walter Koneig and Sam Tramiel? it appears that Koneig may
end up being a spokes person for some ATARI advertising?

Jim A. You jnoe I think that I may be using the term Black list to mean
Shit List not that you mention it. I seem to have been on and Off on several
occasions. I guess a Black list is perminent? In any case at present I can't get a call returned, but I did get new ROMS for all our TT's so maby i am on netural ground for the moment?

Nathin maby you should call me and tell me what I should do about the TT/IAAD
question?

Lee
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Category 75, Topic 16
Message 618 Sun Jun 30, 1991
J.ALLEN27 at 13:58 EDT

Bill, let me decode...you're on Bill's shit list, not Jay Patten's, hence the
roms ;-) I'm on Bill and Leonard's shit list because I mentioned that the
emperor had no clothes...I'm mean sensible HDrive policy on the MSTE during R
Millers conf. I live with it ;-)
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Category 75, Topic 16
Message 619 Mon Jul 01, 1991
L.SEILER at 01:52 EDT

J.A-27

Should I be worried about compatibility with your HW?

I never got an upgrade from you, ( Ime' not complaining ) it just occures to
me that I haven't run any of our software with your HW.?

BTW I liked your treatis on 24 bit color...it was very good.


Lee
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Category 75, Topic 16
Message 620 Mon Jul 01, 1991
J.ALLEN27 at 05:16 EDT

The regular 68000 stuff...now 20Mhz...is no problem, the 030 board will be OK
as long as your code doesn't assume that an 030 means a TT and all that goes
along with it...new res's, tos 3.05, vme, etc. As long as you're happy on an
030/882 MegaST, life will be fine...and really swift.
-----
-------
Category 75, Topic 16
Message 621 Mon Jul 01, 1991
ISD [Nathan] at 14:48 EDT

Sorry Lee, I wasn't clear. When I referred to Michael getting it together, I
meant "I want SFAN to be on the air so I can watch it "!! :-)

Lee, basically, the IAAD did not donate a TT. I will call you on Tuesday to
discuss this, otherwise Ralph will use it to make him look good and us look
bad, in my opinion.
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Category 75, Topic 16
Message 622 Mon Jul 01, 1991
DAVESMALL at 21:34 EDT

I know of three takeoffs in fun of St Report. I was wondering if anyone who
had written one would like to swap, just for grins.

Yeah, I'd like to post 'em too, but no way with the current total lack of
legal support for online notes.

-- Drop me a line, Dave / Gadgets
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Category 75, Topic 16
Message 623 Mon Jul 01, 1991
J.ALLEN27
at 23:37 EDT

Maybe Carl would repost it here? It was truly gifted ;-)
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Category 75, Topic 16
Message 624 Tue Jul 02, 1991
WUZTEK.OPI [Paul Wu] at 06:03 EDT

Todd,

Too bad Atari has elected to ignore the industry standard even when it is free
(Correct me if I am wrong, Adobe Type 1 and Truetype specs are PD, right?)
Even if it is not free, it would've have made Ataris more acceptable to the
DTP and prepress crowd. I sympathize with your delima but I think your Calamas
fonts have better market potential than an FSM version will ever have. True,
the number of registered Calamus users in North America maybe limited.
However, I suspect that there are many more ill-legitimate users out there.
They are all your potential customers.
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Category 75, Topic 16
Message 625 Tue Jul 02, 199
1
ISD [Nathan] at 09:32 EDT

Registered Calamus owners in North America are not as limited as you might
expect Paul. :-) Many thousands in fact. And naturally you are correct in that
there are without a doubt, 10's of thousands of pirated users out there.
(sigh) And Paul's right Todd, they are all potential customers for you.

Dave Small, I wouldn't mind seeing any parody of ST Report. Maybe you would be
so kind as to send some email. :-)
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Category 75, Topic 16
Message 626 Wed Jul 03, 1991
WUZTEK.OPI [Paul Wu] at 03:20 EDT

Nathan,

Sorry if I gave an impression that Calamus had a limited following. I was
refering to a conversation I had with Todd at the PNAS about the number of
registered users in North America in relation to his sales. Now, I am not a
software developer but how many piecies of softwares you have to sell to
consider the product a sucess?

I think with hardwares, a couple of thousands of units should be considered
rather sucessful in the U.S. Atari market.

Paul Wu
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Category 75, Topic 16
Message 627 We
d Jul 03, 1991
L.SEILER at 03:41 EDT

NATHAN,

I was in and out too say so I missed your call? Sorry!


I understand what you are saying and you are correct! The problem is
that I haven't said anything to Ralph about any of this or the IAAD? If you
wan't or need some kind of statement from me or RIO Computers "who is actually
supplying" the TT I am happy to say so? Please keep trying, to get me, I will
try to call you as well.

Sorry for the Mix Up ...Ralph seemes to get most of what he does here
twisted, I will do what ever is required.

Lee
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Category 75, Topic 16
Message 628 Wed Jul 03, 1991

ISD [Nathan] at 10:37 EDT

You hit the nail on the head Lee, putting Ralph and twisted in the same
sentence. :-) Let's ignore his error for now and see if he expands on it.
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Category 75, Topic 16
Message 629 Fri Jul 05, 1991
L.SEILER at 04:25 EDT

NATHAN,

I got your mail, thanks for the info..I talked with Mike Kelley and it
seems that he has badgered Sam T to the point of getting the TT he wanted. I
mentioned our concerns about the wrong conclusion about IAAD support. He said
he would contact Ralph and make some sort of distinction?

I have no problem with doing a conference...I have two seporiate tel
lines into my office so if you are ready to tell me what to do on one line
while I am online on the other Any time is a good time for me. Just check my
log-on times! Paul tells me that you got all the infor you needed but I did not get
the Key or suspect program back yet.

Lee
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Category 75, Topic 16
Message 630 Fri Jul 05, 1991
ISD [Nathan] at 08:57 EDT

Lee... expect some EMail from Jeff Williams, JEFF.W as besides all his usual
day to day work, :-) he also handles the formal conferences as a GEnie Sysop.
The conferences don't start until 7:00 pm your time so hopefully there won't
be to many calls coming in to interupt. This is good business and I'm sure you
will have a great turnout for your conference. I'll be there. :-) And I don't
need to call you on the other line, I can type to you privately inside the
conference. :-)

My apologies. You were absolutley correct. The problem was not the key, it
was the TT. (sigh) We tried it on another TT first and it worked without a
hitch. I should have told you. Paul and David got our import/export working
100% so we have a match. :-)\ More good business.
------------
Category 75, Topic 16
Message 631 Fri Jul 05, 1991
J.ALLEN27 at 12:21 EDT

Another good match, Turbo030 just loves the TT version of DC!!!
------------
Category 75, Topic 16
Message 632 Fri Jul 05, 1991
DARLAH [RT~SYSOP] at 13:14 EDT

Lee:

I will have Jeff send you mail. His address is JEFF.W <-- He sent you mail
about an RTC but never got a reply. Do you need help in mail? We will be glad
to help you.

Category 75, Topic 16
Message 633 Sun Jul 07, 1991
L.SEILER at 03:39 EDT

DARLAH,

Maby I do? I remember his note and tried to send an answer. I really
have a terrible time at the key board stuff. First I never been able to get
the knack of spelling, and I am blessed with a stigmatisum, which makes some
letter or chertor switching invisible to me. I often have thought I keyed in
the right thing and discover I am trapped in some endliss loop. evenyually I
just turn off my modem and give up. You may have noticed I have been trying to answer some question on line about our products.
I would be happy to start a LEXICOR topic any time. I now have three on
different things which we now sell. What do I need to do to qualify for a Free
Flag here in the ATARI RT?

I will try to answer Jeff's next post...in fact I may just try sending
him a Knock Knock to see if I have the mail sending in hand.

Thanks for the interest in what we are trying to do.

Lee
------------
Category 75, Topic 16
Message 634 Sun Jul 07, 1991
D.A.BRUMLEVE [kidprgs] at 04:05 EDT

Lee, it may help you in providing online support to prepare your

messages offline and upload them to the BB rather than typing them
in on the fly. This would give you an opportunity to correct your
spelling as best you can before the text sees the light of day.
The GEnie BB editor is nearly useless, so editing a message online
is tough for all of us.

What you need to ask for is a Lexicor _Category_. Your products
(some, at least) already have Topics in the Graphics Category, and
when a Lexicor Category is provided, the sysops will move these
Topics and their messages to the new Category.
------------

Category 75, Topic 16
Message 635 Sun Jul 07, 1991
DARLAH [RT~SYSOP] at 11:08 EDT

Excellent idea. Let me know what you want to do.
------------
Category 75, Topic 16
Message 636 Sun Jul 07, 1991
ISD [Nathan] at 11:13 EDT

Lee, maybe you need to use Aladdin. It can make life easier. I don't use it
but many do. And Dorothy, I use the GEnie editor all the time. :-) It just
goes to show, you can get used to anything. :-)
------------
Category 75, Topic 16
Message 637 Mon Jul 08, 1991
L.SEILER at 02:45 EDT

HO..GREAT NOW YOU GUYS WANT TO..get me to try off line
file upload something I
can't spell anyway? I see what you are trying to do...! figgered to draw me
in...A! well it won't work! I am just going to use the wrong command and get
lost.....so there.....! .....Drugge....Drugge....Drugge......Drugge.......a
lost sole.. wounders the endles byways of Genie once again......Drugge....D
....ru....gg......e................................
------------
Category 75, Topic 16
Message 638 Mon Jul 08, 1991
J.ALLEN27 at 04:47 EDT

Lee, you could always hire a helper to cover your support efforts on GEnie.
------------
Category 75, Topic 16
Message 639 Mon Jul 08, 1991
D.A.BRUMLEVE [kidprgs] at 09:38 EDT

Lee ---> :-)
------------
Category 75, Topic 16
Message 640 Mon Jul 08, 1991
ISD [Nathan] at 09:59 EDT

Jim just volunteered in fact. :-)
------------
Category 75, Topic 16
Message 641 Mon Jul 08, 1991
J.ALLEN27 at 12:07 EDT

And here my father taught me NEVER volunteer
;-)
 ------------
************
Topic 17 Wed Aug 01, 1990
ISD [Nathan] (Forwarded)
Sub: Dealing with the Media

Lets discuss the various North American ST publications.
618 message(s) total.
************
------------
Category 75, Topic 17
Message 394
Thu Jun 06, 1991
C.WALTERS1 [Chet] at 04:22 EDT

Yeah, and we been 'fraid of the Reds for all these years when right next
door.....

______Chet at \/\/iz\/\/orks! ;^{)
------------
Category 75, Topic 17
Message 395 Thu Jun 06, 1991
C.WALNUM1 [CLAY] at 23:13 EDT

I recently heard from someone at Atari in the UK that the June issue of ST
USER has a review of my book, C-MANSHIP COMPLETE, in it. There's no place near
me where I can get the UK magazines, unfortunately. Has anyone seen this
issue yet? Has it made its way into the U.S.?

---Clay

Category 75, Topic 17
Message 396 Thu Jun 06, 1991
J.ALLEN27
at 23:33 EDT

They thought it was great Clay!!! They just wondered when an English language
version would be available ;-)


Just kidding, haven't seen it.
------------
Category 75, Topic 17
Message 398 Sat Jun 08, 1991
JMGSOFT [George @ JMG] at 03:57 EDT

Clay, I have the magazine in my store.... I just never get time to read it.
I'll try to remember to take a look.

Category 75, Topic 17
Message 399 Sat Jun 08, 1991
ISD [Nathan] at 11:45 EDT

I wrote an article in the latest version of AtariUser. I took the opportunity
to try and submit an upbeat Atari related story. I thought it went over well.
Then Ralph, in his latest ST Report, took the opportunity to point out that I
didn't mention that the original meeting was held in his hotel room, which it
was, and that Michael Arthur and Gordon, according to Ralph, worked to get the
meeting organized for 6 weeks prior to WAACE where the meeting was held. Of
this I have no comment. Personally I learned about the meeting the day before
it was held. I also clearly remember walking into Ralphs packed hotel room and
Gordon immediately turned the meeting over to me to run. I knew maybe 10% of
the developers present at the time and wasn't exactly t thrilled to death to
be put on the spot in that fashion. :-) Anyway, for those of you that weren't
there, this was 2 years ago at WAACE. Gordon went on to become the first
member of the IAAD to be asked to leave our membership which is enough said on
that long dead issue. Anyway, I responded in cat 26 to Ralph. Most of you are
aware that I have zero respect for the man but I did try to restrain myself.

:-) If you're interested, its cat 26. topic 2 message 240. And this could well
be the start of a war, me against Ralph and all his buddies. :-) Isn't life
grand.
------------

Category 75, Topic 17
Message 400 Sat Jun 08, 1991
J.ALLEN27 at 13:37 EDT

I'm the guy that got this thing going, I put the bug in MA's head, in an
effort to get him to stop bugging me. He would call once a week and want to
jaw bout how shitty things were in atariland, so I said "Hey, what the
industry needs is a dev organization...". But as in life, just having the idea
doesn't an organization make ;-) It was the work AFTER the meeting in Ralphs
room...which he's not about to let anyone forget ;-)...that got us together.
We should thank them for the "idea", and get back to business ;-) PS. I think
Ralph is actually miffed about the rumors of a "booklet" and the fact that
ABCO...and Toad, CG, etc...weren't invited to participate.
------------
Category 75, Topic 17
Message 401 Sat Jun 08, 1991
CRAIG.S.THOM at 13:52 EDT

I blew off the meeting and stayed in the "7 Guys from Canada" suite and drank
Molson until the wee hours. The exact details of that evening escape me.
------------
Category 75, Topic 17
Message 403 Sat Jun 08, 1991
NEVIN-S at 16:17 EDT

Jim, you didn't think of the idea, I told you to tell Michael Arthur about it.
Don't you remember? And actually, I didn't think of it myself, Bill Teal said
I should think about it. I think Bill got the idea from Dave Small. But I
guess Sandy was the one who got Dave thinking about it in the first place. And
Sandy only thought about it because of the idea of an internal Spectre 128,
and Leonard T told her that Atari developers would have more clout if they
formed a group. So Leonard really started the whole thing....!

hehe

--Nevin

Who started what is not important at all. The main thing is the group works in
its own way, is useful to us, and that's all. The history of the group's
formation is not worth losing any sleep over.

------------
Category 75, Topic 17
Message 405 Sat Jun 08, 1991
W.PARKS3 [Dr. Bob] at 20:15 EDT

Actually, to give credit where credit is due, we should thank Steve Wozniac
and Steve Jobs for pushing the home computer into the hands (or tabletops) of
the masses. Without that event, Atari wouldn't have been (nor many others;-)

So.... "Thanks Woz!"

Bye: Dr. Bob

(ps: was Jack at commodore back when it first switched from calculators to the
PET 2001 ?
Or did he come later... )

------------
Category 75, Topic 17
Message 406 Sat Jun 08, 1991
G.RICHARDSO1 [George] at 20:57 EDT

Jack was the founder of Commodore. That probably has a lot to do with the
fact that Atari see's them as "The Competition."

It might also explain Atari in general. Nobody wants to put a lot of effort
into somebody elses revenge.

George Richardson
Merlin Group, Inc.
------------
Category 75, Topic 17
Message 407 Sat Jun 08
, 1991
ISD [Nathan] at 22:20 EDT

10 new messages in cat 26 since my post and I'm staying in it this time. If
you don't want to get involved, don't. :-) If you would allow me to share a
few of your insights, please email them and I will.

And George is of course correct. :-)
------------
Category 75, Topic 17
Message 408 Sun Jun 09, 1991
J.ALLEN27 at 01:31 EDT

I was not trying to be self-lauding Nevin ;-)

The point of my comment was that it really wasn't Mike's idea, and Ralph's
whole argument is completely silly. Mike did have a habit of calling and
bothering a number of us who's phone numbers were known...through Ralph in my
case...thanks Ralph. He made a point of calling at 11-12 at night too. I'm not
sure who really brought it up, but between Nevin, Bill, me,
and ...yes...Ralph and Gordon, somehow a meeting was instigated. And yes,
so what.

The organization is built on the backs of members and thier input, there was
no IAAD to take credit for in Oct 89'. A bunch of us at the sh + w just
came together, perhaps out of shear disgust over Atari and the market... boy
it's actually gotten worse, imagine that...and it dawn on the collective mind
that a professional group might be helpful to all concerned. We picked The
board based on which individuals had an ice cubes chance in hell of actually
being successful. Nathan and Gordon obviously had the most extensive
relationships with Atari Corp. and were the natural choices for leadership
roles.

I happen to know that Ralph really wanted to see the creation of an instrument
with which (he?) or someone could bludgeon Atari...for whatever seemingly good
reason. That of course was silly, a conclusion we all came to...much to Ralphs
disappointment no doubt.

He still is thinking in those terms, and hence the apparent unhappiness with
the "progess" made by the IAAD....like _ k anyone could ever move
that beached blue whale we call Atari ;-) Especially by playing "rough"?
Ralph still doesn't seem to see that Atari and it's rulers couldn't give a
rats ass about Atari, or anything. So you can never shame them into action, no
matter how hard you try.

Ralph has to come to terms with the fact that "we", the membership, have to
work with Atari, like it or not, and conduct ourselves accordingly. You just
don't bite the hand that feeds you, and you sure don't bother when that hand
is dead from the neck up and wouldn't notice even if you bit all it's fingers
off...yuck, phwetewy.

Nathan, if you wish to rephrase what I just said in a more palettable form and
pass it along as my feelings on the matter, feel free.
------------
Category 75, Topic 17
Message 409 Sun Jun 09, 1991
JMGSOFT [George @ JMG] at 02:58 EDT

I've long cancelled cat 26, and that's not about to change.

PS - It was actually ME that first had the idea for the IAAD in a dream back
in 1985... this same dream also involved two trained chimpanzees and a
Swedish female hockey team. :-)


Why I just said that, I don't know.

------------
Category 75, Topic 17
Message 411 Sun Jun 09, 1991
CHERRY.FONTS at 07:55 EDT

In case anyone was wondering about the cryptic message from Bob Brodie in the
Vancouver show topic: Ralph cancelled his promise to show up and aggravate
everyone here. Did you threaten physical violence, Nathan? :-)

Dorothy, the first paragraph of your message (#410) would be a good call-out
for Nathan's collection. Please allow that particular anecdote to be made public in one form or another. Its message is extremely important to this "battle".

When <sigh> will Ralph ever grow up or get a life?

..Todd

------------
Category 75, Topic 17
Message 414 Sun Jun 09, 1991
NEVIN-S at 09:52 EDT

Well I just replied in Cat 26....I have no problem getting involved in this
one. What I said is what I really think: who gives a flying frisbee about how
the group was started. It is functioning nicely now and there is no reason to
care about how it got started.

Aside to Dorothy: I remember the meeting at WAACE. I asked Gordon after the
meeting if I could write about it or not, and he said, "Sure go ahead!" So I
did, and the STI folks put on that super aggressive headline....and I sure
heard from some Atari developers on THAT article..! Oh well....it's all in the
past.


--Nevin
------------
Category 75, Topic 17
Message 416 Sun Jun 09, 1991
J.ALLEN27 at 16:18 EDT

Bingo Dot, and frankly, Ralph still wants to bludgeon Atari and would still
like "us" to do it. Problem is, we have to "live" with these people and just
can't go around smacking them.

I'm curious about the "big shakeup" thing. Alls quite on the western front
from what I've seen. I think someones pulling his leg, perhaps on purpose just
to be able to jump all over him.

I don't seem to remember Kovacs being at the meeting, but then he's not a very
memorable guy. It's amazing, some blood's in the water, and the sharks come a
runnin'.

And even Rod wanted someone to bludgeon Atari, hence the editorial license
with Nevin's article.
------------
Category 75, Topic 17
Message 4
17 Sun Jun 09, 1991
NEVIN-S at 17:44 EDT

Jim, I have also heard from very good sources that Atari is about to downsize
once again. I think this will become evident in the near future. I don't have
much of a problem with Ralph's reporting that (because I am sure he has some
of the same sources as I do) but I do have a problem with the strange "riddle"
way he does it. For example, saying something about the "TV man." Why not just
say, "Joe Blow went on TV and said something bad and now there is a rumor that
he will be fired or demoted." Or wait until the firing or demotion HAPPENS,
and then say, "Joe Blow was demoted, apparently because he went on TV and said
that the Atari machine was smelly." The paragraphs of riddles are stupid, and
I have said so many times in Cat 26.

--Nevin

------------
Category 75, Topi
c 17
Message 419 Mon Jun 10, 1991
J.ALLEN27 at 00:11 EDT

The only people I know are bullet proof are Sam, Leonard, Gary, Jack, Gregg,
Bob, and Bill. Bob, and Bill's bulletproofness is always in question however ;-)

So WHO went on TV. Did I miss something, a Computer Chronicles or some such
show? Or was it the Today show? Or better yet 60 Minutes!!? And what was said?

Downsize....folk folks if Atari were run by the numbers...like real
businesses...they'd be a very different animal indeed. That sucker needs a
shakeup. And since the factories are gone, it's only natural that those who
were involved with that end of the business would be trimmed down. Now they
just need a crew to arrange and monitor manufacturing contracts, and that
takes far fewer people.

It's nuts to make a big deal out of it, IBM fires more poeple every 5 minutes
than Atari has ever had working for them. It's just Gregg making sure the ship
floats while the others "play" businessman.
------------

Category 75, Topic 17
Message 420 Mon Jun 10, 1991
ISD [Nathan] at 08:06 EDT

I beg to differ. The only ones bullet proof have the same last name and it
starts with T, period!!
------------
Category 75, Topic 17
Message 421 Mon Jun 10, 1991
NEVIN-S at 09:39 EDT

Nathan, I agree with you 100%...the only bullet proof people are the Tramiels.
Nobody else.

--Nevin



------------
Category 75, Topic 17
Message 422 Mon Jun 10, 1991
J.ALLEN27 at 13:00 EDT

That sort of what I said....with some wishful thinking thrown in ;-)
That still doesn't tell me who "TV guy" is?
------------
Category 75, Topic 17
Message 423 Mon Jun 10, 1991
W.PARKS3 [Dr. Bob] at 19:18 EDT

It starts with "T" and ends with "E" and that spells "Trouble". Right here
in River city!

Bye: Dr. Bob
------------
Category 75, Topic 17
Message 424 Tue Jun 11, 1991
N.WEINRESS at 00:42 EDT

Speaking of "TV", I was watching the news on our CBS station at 6:30 PM Sunday
evening when I was presented with a actual, real, genuine ad from Atari...for
Lynx. When I got up off the floor sat in my chair again, I continued to watch
the news.

Downsizing? Time to sell my stock.
------------
Category 75, Topic 17
Message 425 Tue Jun 11, 1991
J.ALLEN27
at 00:47 EDT

Lynx ads run all the time on MTV and Nicolodean.
------------
Category 75, Topic 17
Message 426 Tue Jun 11, 1991
G.RICHARDSO1 [George] at 07:35 EDT

Lynx adds have been running in the NYC area for a month or so now. The problem
is that when you go out and buy one, it's usually bad. The other day the local
Toys R Us (how do you send a backwards R? :-) ) had them stacked up on the
customer service counter. A kid had exchanged his 3 times before deciding to
get a Game Boy. The customer service person said that the defective rate was
incredible, easily the worst product she had ever seen.

With products like that, it's easy to see why they're downsizing.

George Richardson
Merlin Group, Inc.
------------
Category 75, Topic 17
Message 427 Tue Jun 11, 1991

NEVIN-S at 14:04 EDT

George, that's sad to hear about the Lynx defective rate. Not surprising, but
sad nonetheless...

--Nevin

------------
Category 75, Topic 17
Message 428 Tue Jun 11, 1991
C.WALNUM1 [CLAY] at 20:26 EDT

Dorothy: I'll probably end up writing to ST User for a copy. I'm already
starting receive mail from the U.K. about the review, asking where they can
buy the book.

George: If you have a copy of the June St User, I'd be gald to buy it from
you.

---Clay

------------
Category 75, Topic 17
Message 429 Tue Jun 11, 1991
J.TRAUTSCHOL [jtrautschold] at 22:45 EDT

I wonder if Tittsler had anything to do with the shutting down of the Taiwan
factory (or selling of it, as it were.) Atari sent him to Japan to shake
things up, didn't they?

John T.

------------
Category 75, Topic 17
Message 430 Tue Jun 11, 1991
ISD [Nathan] at 23:16 EDT

Check the map John. Jim went to Japan is correct. The factory being sold in
Taiwan is Tramiel all the way.
------------
Category 75, Topic 17
Message 431 Wed Jun 12, 1991
J.ALLEN27 at 02:03 EDT

Jim is a hardware engineering manager, he's not involved with the plant sale.
He is apparently working on the "Notebook"? So now that they sold the
factories, who's building equipment?
------------
Category 75, Topic 17
Message 432 Wed Jun 12, 1991
JLS [John STanley] at 08:35 EDT

Clay, call me (612-825-4215) or drop me a GEmail msg asap if you want me to
pick up a copy of the June ST-User. (Local store carries them...)
... JLS
------------
Category 75, Topic 17
Message 433 Wed Jun 12, 1991
ISD [Nathan] at 09:30 EDT

They sub-contract it out Jim. So, a) they pocket the cash from the sale of the
factory (quite a few dollars I believe and b) they pay to manufacture exactly
what they need as they need it. Of course this means that they have to prepare
accurate budgets, projections, long term planning etc etc. Why does that
thought scare me? :-)
------------
Category 75, Topic 17
Message 434 Wed Jun 12, 1991
NEVIN-S at 11:26 EDT

Yes, they sold the factory for $60 Million and their stock went up 3/8ths the
same day (about 5%). Of course, it has come down since. Atari has this little
trick where each fiscal quarter they do SOMETHING so their earnings don't go
down too much, when in reality they are falling like a brick. One month they
refinance some bonds, the next month they value their 8 bits at $100 per
computer, the next month they sell their factory...and all the while their
sales are falling.

--Nevin
------------
Category 75, Topic 17

Message 436 Wed Jun 12, 1991
WORDFLAIR [Lauren] at 13:43 EDT

Right, Nevin. Another favorite trick is creative valuation of their
inventory. Last time I looked carefully it was valued at over $150 million,
virtually 75% of their net worth. As we all know they don't have complete
products to ship so I don't know what they are counting. 8 bits, defective
Lynx's, Microsoft Write's, Desksets, floppy drives, modems, monitors, but no
CPU's. In reality, they should do a major write down on their inventory to
correct it to true market value since I suspect that the majority of it is in
obsolete goods. And by the way, it has been Greg Pratt who has come up with
these clever quarterly dances to improve the earnings per share picture. I
wonder who is doing it now. Pratt has been brilliant at making a halfway
decent picture out of a financial disaster. Lauren
------------
Category 75, Topic 17
Message 437 Wed Jun 12, 1991
C.WALNUM1 [CLAY] at 23:24 EDT

John: Thanks. Will send you email.

---Clay

 ------------
Category 75, Topic 17
Message 438 Thu Jun 13, 1991
ISD [Nathan] at 10:21 EDT

The word is plummeting, not falling. (sigh)
------------
Category 75, Topic 17
Message 439 Thu Jun 13, 1991
J.ALLEN27 at 10:54 EDT

The word is....SPATTER!!! Which is what happens at the end of the fall...er,
plummet ;-)
------------
Category 75, Topic 17
Message 440 Thu Jun 13, 1991
J.TRAUTSCHOL [jtrautschold] at 22:32 EDT

Well geeze...I know the difference between Taiwan and Japan Nathan! :-) My
point in the comment was that Jim was sent supposedly to work out production
problems (i.e. Class B cert) and that part of the duties was to "fix" actual
design problems in Japan, but to also "fix" production problem in Taiwan. I
might be wrong on that.


My first thought was that Taiwan was sold for two reasons...too many
production problems resulting in high return rates (such as the problems I've
heard about the Lynx) and secondly the cost of owning/maintaining that
factory.

John T.

P.S. Got the IAAD pins today Nathan. NICE! Very classy... The work you put
in on those are much appreciated and I'll be looking forward to wearing mine
at the next show (for me that'll probably be Indianapolis.) Thank
s again!!!

------------
Category 75, Topic 17
Message 441 Thu Jun 13, 1991
ISD [Nathan] at 23:23 EDT

You are most welcome re: the pins.

My guess on the factory, money in pocket vs not making full use of the
production capabilities.
------------
Category 75, Topic 17
Message 442 Thu Jun 13, 1991
J.ALLEN27 at 23:58 EDT

So who's making the STEs now?....Or is anyone (ewe, scaaaaary)?
------------
Category 75, Topic 17
Message 443 Fri Jun 14, 1991
JLS [John STanley] at 07:29 EDT

Atari "downsizing" again? <groan...>

Much more of this and they'll be able to run the whole US operation from
inside a shoebox.. and sublet the extra s
pace... :^/
------------
Category 75, Topic 17
Message 444 Fri Jun 14, 1991
WORDFLAIR [Lauren] at 14:16 EDT

Rumor has it that Bill Rehbock, Art Morgan and a couple of others are now on
the Atari Corp payroll vs. Atari US and therefore will spread their talents
over the problems of Atari International as well. :-) Lauren
------------
Category 75, Topic 17
Message 445 Sat Jun 15, 1991
J.ALLEN27 at 03:56 EDT

Holy moly Batman, Gregg's in deeeeeep dewdew!!! Definitely wouldn't want to be
anywhere near his shoes.

Sounds like Bill and Bob are both getting spread way too thin....they'll both
snap eventually.

------------

Category 75, Topic 17
Message 446 Sun Jun 16, 1991
J.CRASWELL at 17:47 EDT

On the birth of the IAAD. I saw it as a meeting of Gordon and Ralph who
thought they could form a group against Atari. Or at least to tell Atari how
to behave etc. Also don't forget that Gordon nominated himself and (I think)
elected himself as well. This put me off a lot and it was only later that I
payed much attention to the IAAD. Thanks to Nathen I realized that the IAAD
was not a group of Total kooks. Oh and don't forget the CLASSIC moment of the
meeting when Nevin said "If you don't want the press to report on the
activities of the IAAD may I suggest that you don't invite them to the
meetings?" The IAAD pins by the way look nice!
------------
Category 75, Topic 17
Message 447 Tue Jun 18, 1991
ISD [Nathan] at 20:51 EDT

:-)
------------
Category 75, Topic 17
Message 451 Sun Jun 23, 1991
CRAIG.S.THOM at 19:21 EDT

That was excellent. Where did you find it?

Can we have a contest for doing ST Report copies? Can we, huh, can we? Please
please please?

------------
Category 75, Topic 17
Message 453 Sun Jun 23, 1991
NEVIN-S at 21:41 EDT

Dorothy, I don't know why but I agree with you that Ralph does NOT like
Nathan. I have no idea why. Nathan, did you every do anything to Ralph? I just
don't get it...

--Nevin
------------
Category 75, Topic 17
Message 455 Sun Jun 23, 1991
G.RICHARDSO1 [George] at 23:31 EDT

Ralph sits on a keyboard? No wonder he can't spell!

Nathan, I don't think you should consider resigning over this. Ralph has
attacked you and you have *every* right to defend youself in whatever fashion
you decide is needed. You've always presented a reasoned outlook on things
when someone else (myself for instance) would blow their tops.

Personally, I'd like the whole IAAD to gang up on Ralph, but I suspect that he
would just see that as justification of his attitude and a verification of his
importance in the Atari community.

Dorothy, that post reads just *too* much like Ralph. You don't suppose Ralph
actually did it, do you?

George Richardson
Merlin Group, Inc.
------------
Category 75, Topic 17
Message 457 Mon Jun 24, 1991
C.WALNUM1 [CLAY] at 00:30 EDT

Nathan: I agree with you about Atari bashing. All it does is hasten The End.
Atari sure doesn't listen, so all bashing does is chase off potential
customers. On the other hand, sometimes it's really hard not to let your
feelings be known. Frustration has to be vented somewhere. I have a feeling
that the developers who do the most bashing are the ones who have already
given up; they feel they have nothing to lose.

It's been my policy for quite a while not to bash Atari in public. Get me on
the phone, though, and we can curse them to hell and back again. You're
talking to the guy who lost a job he loved because of those people. But, on
the bright side, I'm much happier doing what I'm doing now, so they did me a
favor.

Taylor Ridge Books is just a hobby, you know. I make my living writing PC and
Nintendo books. :-)

---Clay

------------
Category 75, Topic 17
Message 459 Mon Jun 24, 1991
C.F.JOHNSON [CodeHead] at 01:25 EDT

About bashing Atari: I simply couldn't hold in my feelings any more, and
they came out in public. That's the way it goes sometimes; and I'm not sorry
about it. Over on Compuserve, someone likened the unreasoning devotion that
some users have towards Atari to the way some abused children feel toward
their abusing parents -- a very sad, but very on-target analysis, I think.
It's absolutely amazing how some people will continue to make excuses for
Atari, even after being abused and lied to for _years_ -- they simply don't
want to see or hear the truth. (And there is none so blind as he who will not
see.)

As for Atari's new "vertical market" approach -- I'm sorry, but I simply
don't see how focussing on a very narrow section of the market is going to
help the majority of ST/TT developers. It _might_ help the few who have DTP
applications (and even that is open to debate, given Atari's incredible
marketing expertise [note to George G.: yes, I was being sarcastic there! :)
]), but the fact is that focussing on that narrow market is a desperation
move, pure and simple. To extrapolate from that and say that maybe eventually
the market will expand beyond vertical applications is to ignore the last five
years. Let's not forget that at one time, Atari _did_ have a market outside of
DTP applications -- and they blew it, big-time. Do you really think they're
going to recapture that larger market by _scaling down_? When they've already
_lost it_, and burned an incredible number of bridges in the process? The
hardest thing in the world is to regain credibility once it's been lost, and I
just don't believe Atari has either the means or the will to do it.

In any case, I've said all I'll be saying about this issue in public.

- Charles

P.S. Clay: The End has already come and gone...we're all living in the ruins
of the aftermath. Tom Hudson, Dan Moore, and Steve Ahlstrom had the right
idea -- they got out while the getting was good.

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Category 75, Topic 17
Message 460 Mon Jun 24, 1991
MINDOVERMIDI at 04:46 EDT

Well, I think also that something is better than nothing. IBM wouldn't be so
big if they didn't have the business market cornered, which filters down to
people buying an IBM to use at home so they can play games AND do work at
home. I still don't have much hope for Atari growth, however.

I'm glad I don't read STR. Easier to keep a good attitude. (Picture blind man
in passenger seat, happily sipping Big Gulp and talking about baseball,
unawares that the vehicle's driver died of a heart attack a few miles back...)
:)
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Category 75, Topic 17
Message 461 Mon Jun 24, 1991
CHERRY.FONTS at 08:16 EDT

For the record, I cannot stand the excrement that spews from the fingertips of
Ralph Mariano (Hi Ralph). His unique style of trash has already caused MANY
naive ST owners to reconsider their choice of machines. Our customers!

Lloyd is no better. He lives to argue -- to an extent that is almost inhuman.
Where is the purpose in that? What a waste of time.

If anyone can think of a way for me to express my disapproval of ST Report in
public without a) my having to read STR, b) my having to waste time in
confrontations with either Ralph or Lloyd, or c) my doing any damage to the
Atari market or my own buisness, please let me know!

..Todd
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Category 75, Topic 17
Message 463 Mon Jun 24, 1991
ICDINC at 11:18 EDT

Dot,

Looks like something John Eidsvog would do. (Come on John, fess up.)

(oops Eidsvoog)

Just a hunch.

- TOM -
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Category 75, Topic 17
Message 464 Mon Jun 24, 1991
WORDFLAIR [Lauren] at 14:38 EDT

I have only had a couple of run-ins with Ralph quoting me on so
mething that we never talked about. Otherwise, my tactic is to ignore him (I never even read
ST Report)but be friendly but close mouthed in public. Seems to work ok.

Just one thing in his defense she said ducking tomatoes. Once, I heard
through the grapevine that he was approached by a degenerate type whose name I
won't mention, trying to spread dirt about Goldleaf. Ralph called me, we
talked about the situation--I set him straight on the facts- and nothing was
published. So in the one instance I had to deal with him, he was reasonable.
I didn't even have to threaten legal action like slander/libel, etc.

Just for some perspective. Lauren
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Category 75, Topic 17
Message 466 Mon Jun 24, 1991
J.EIDSVOOG1 [CodeHead] at 19:27 EDT

Tom,

Come on...I wouldn't ridicule Ralph like that. Didn't you know that Ralph and
I are good buddies. Why, Ralph was the one who introduced me to Leonard (this
is no lie!). <grin>

John
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Category 75, Topic 17

Message 468 Mon Jun 24, 1991
G.RICHARDSO1 [George] at 22:17 EDT

Many people don't know about ABCO & ST Report.

George
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Category 75, Topic 17
Message 470 Mon Jun 24, 1991
T.GILL7 [GILLT] at 22:52 EDT

The last time Pulleymonia infected one of my discussions I decided that the
only way to halt the spread was is to vaccinate with a strong dose of humor
and rest... Trouble is, the bug keeps getting into everything!



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Category 75, Topic 17
Message 471 Mon Jun 24, 1991
ISD [Nathan] at 23:38 EDT

:-) Good point Tyson. And interesting aspect re: people that read ST Report
not knowing that they are one and the same as ABCO. Hmm
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Category 75, Topic 17
Message 472 Tue Jun 25, 1991
W.PARKS3 [Dr. Bob] at 00:14 EDT

A few years back, we used to deal with "ABCO" - spelled the same way, but
it was not in Jacksonville, not in FLA, and as far as I know didn't carry
any Atari products.... in fact, we even won a Hawaii vacation from them...
oops... that may have been from Softsel- it's been a wee bit o time ;)
I don't know if that ABCO is still named ABCO or not but they were most
certainly larger than Ralph's operation. I hope they're not still using
the name ABCO...

Bye: Dr. Bob
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Category 75, Topic 17
Message 473 Tue Jun 25, 1991
C.WALNUM1 [CLAY] at 00:43 EDT

Dorothy: Thanks for missing your old job. It was fun while it lasted. I know
what you mean about the cost of business. I can't _believe_ how much money I
have to send out the door. It seems like everyone makes money on C-MANSHIP
but me. <GRUMBLE>

Charles: Good grief! I must've hit a button <G>. Did you think my post was
aimed at you in particular? I wouldn't do that. We're buddies, remember? I
don't think any of us are blind. I doubt any Atari developer can keep the
faith. I just don't think there's anything to be gained by saying what we
know in public. It hurts whatever sales we have left.

As for the The End, in the sense you mean it, yes, it's come and gone. I gave
up on Atari a long time ago. However, I still have fun with my machine, enjoy
programming it, and get a kick out of selling C-MANSHIP. (I'm even 3/4 of the
way through with a new book for Taylor Ridge Books, which probably makes me an
idiot. But, hey, I never said I was smart. <G>) The End I was referring to
was when all of us actually stop what we're doing. Granted, there's not many
of us left, so that time probably isn't far away.

You're not mad at me, are you?

---Clay

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Category 75, Topic 17
Message 474 Tue Jun 25, 1991
C.F.JOHNSON [CodeHead] at 01:48 EDT

Clay,

Mad at you? No! The "he who will not see" wasn't directed at you; I was
talking about the folks who insist on making excuses for Atari, and describe
any criticism as "Atari-bashing" or "whining."

And I agree with you about airing grievances in public. This is the last
time I'll do that. You're right, it doesn't serve any purpose, except to blow
off steam. Atari certainly isn't going to change their way of doing business
because of something I (or anyone else) says, and I never thought they would.

On to more pleasant topics -- boy, this Mac IIsi is a _nice_ machine. Makes
the TT look like the sluggard it is. Even running at 20MHz in 256-color mode,
and with a _much_ larger screen area, its screen redraws leave the TT choking
in the dust. :)

(Now Jay will probably tell me again what an idiot I am for enjoying it.)

- Charles

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Category 75, Topic 17
Message 475 Tue Jun 25, 1991
ISD [Nathan] at 08:26 EDT

I don't know what Jay will say but don't try to take away Davids II fx cause
you'll lose your fingers. :-) I am referring to our David, by the way, not to
confuse the issue. :-)
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Category 75, Topic 17
Message 478 Tue Jun 25, 1991
J.TRAUTSCHOL [jtrautschold] at 22:11 EDT

Ummm....well....I almost hate to admit this, but recently Ralph downloaded and
ran a press release about Missionware Software that I had posted on the
various services. I actually got a couple of direct sales out of it. People
wrote and said "I read about your (program name here) in ST Report and want to
order one. Here's my check for $xx.xx."

John T.

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Category 75, Topic 17
Message 479 Tue Jun 25, 1991
NEVIN-S at 23:01 EDT

John, I believe that. The same is true with Tracker/ST. ST Report should be
used by developers for press releases and just try to ignore all the other
stuff. The truth is that both on-line mags are a great way to get free
publicity all around the world.

--Nevin
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Category 75, Topic 17
Message 481 Tue Jun 25, 1991
D.BECKEMEYER [David @ BDT] at 23:33 EDT

Regarding Atari bashing, anyone who spent time on Usenet around 1987 knows
that I used to be notorious for it. T
hey really pissed me off in those days.
There was potential then.

Now I sometimes still feel the need to bash, but I can do it here, where it is
(somewhat) less public. That's one thing I think a lot of us have gained from
the IAAD -- we can vent a little when we need to and we usually aren't even
pounded into the ground for it :-)

On the other hand, I agree (now) that Atari will never listen and there are no
positive results from bashing them vigorously in public. Nothing changes.

Unfortunately, I don't believe that changing platforms is a sure quick-fix.
It's easy to say but hard to do. There are some serious bucks to compete with
in the DOS/Windows/Unix/Sun/Mac/Next/X world. Niche markets and services are
the only hope for small companies.

Regarding Atari and niche markets, keep in mind that this DTP thing is not the
first time they've tried it. Remember the ATW? Remember the "Atari Business
Centers" and the supposed push into the "business market"? The big
"governemnt contracting" disaster? And so on...

- David


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Category 75, Topic 17
Message 482 Wed Jun 26, 1991

C.F.JOHNSON [CodeHead] at 01:11 EDT

Yes, folks, the leaks to Ralph are continuing. He also called CodeHead
today to brag about reading the posts in this Category.

 I honestly don't understand what would compel a developer to do this. But
rest assured that if I ever find out who you are, I will do my level best to
make your so-called "life" extremely miserable.

- Charles

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Category 75, Topic 17
Message 483 Wed Jun 26, 1991
DAVESMALL at 02:24 EDT

Here's another developer saying that Ralph indeed is reading this stuff.
-- thanks, Dave
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Category 75, Topic 17
Message 484 Wed Jun 26, 1991
ISD [Nathan] at 08:52 EDT

Perhaps we can approach this in another fashion that is less likely to send
everyone running for shelter. While I agree that if you have a new product
annoucement you should definitely make it available to the online mags and in
general kibbitz with these people regarding your own products, thats about the
only reason that I can think of to associate with them. Now my curiousity is
aroused. Quite a few of us receive calls from Ralph on a regular basis. I am
always careful not only what I say to Ralph but how I respond to anything that
he says as he is a past expert at using what you don't say in his own special
fashion. He is also amazing at insinuating himself into any issue if possible,
the SFAN is a classic example. And when SFAN gets stuff from Atari Ralph will
imply that he was instrumental in their doing so. The fact is that when he
called and pushed on it, after Bills first call back to Michael after the now
notorious fax, he is exactly what caused the delay. (sigh)

So, how many of you download ST Report on a regular basis? How many of you
post in cat 26? And how many of you feel that St Report is filling a
legitimate need in the Atari community? I want to know if I'm the idiot here.
If a majority of you feel that Ralph is adding some constructive benefit to
the sales of your products, tell me please. Personally I feel he hurts us and
the Atari market in general, every single issue. If you feel that I am wrong,
I will leave him alone but I would appreciate a consenses please. Thank you.
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Category 75, Topic 17
Message 485 Wed Jun 26, 1991
ICDINC at 11:14 EDT

I haven't downloaded it for a couple of months. I used to regularly. It is
just too low on the priority list anymore .... unless I see some ICD important
news in the headline.

- TOM -

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