                                ,,,
                               (o o)
---------------------------oOOo-(_)-oOOo----------------------------------------
READ THE SHAMELESS SELF PROMOTION BIT TOWARDS THE END OF THIS GUIDE.  IT CONTAINS
A COMPLETE LIST OF THE GUIDES I'VE WRITTEN, EVEN THE GAME WINNERS EXCLUSIVE ONES.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


           ___
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         (  ~/||    _                      ||
         (  / ||   / \\  _-_         /'\\ =||=
          \/==||  || || || \\       || ||  ||
          /_ _||  || || ||/         || ||  ||
         (  - \\, \\_-| \\,/        \\,/   \\,
                   /  \
                  '----`

           ,- _~,                                           _-_, _-_,
          (' /| /                 '                           //   //
         ((  ||/= \\/\\/\\ -_-_  \\ ,._-_  _-_   _-_,         ||   || <>
         ((  ||   || || || || \\ ||  ||   || \\ ||_.         ~||  ~||
          ( / |   || || || || || ||  ||   ||/    ~ ||         ||   ||
           -____- \\ \\ \\ ||-'  \\  \\,  \\,/  ,-_-        _-_, _-_, <>
                           |/
                           '


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(  ~/||    _                      ||          // ,     '         _
(  / ||   / \\  _-_         /'\\ =||=         ||/\\   \\ \\/\\  / \\  _-_,
 \/==||  || || || \\       || ||  ||         ~|| <    || || || || || ||_.
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(  - \\, \\_-| \\,/        \\,/   \\,        _-__,\\, \\ \\ \\ \\_-| ,-_-
          /  \                                                  /  \
         '----`                                                '----`



-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

             Age of Empires II: Age of Kings and The Conquerers -- Volume 2
             System: PC/Windows

             Version: Final (08/25/00)


                                Email Policy:
                                
         If you are going to email me about this game, please put
         AoE II as the subject.  Just AoE II.  Also please realize
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         Before emailing me with a question, be sure to check out the
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                              _______________
.--------------------========= N  O  T  E  S =========-------------------------.
|                                                               |
|  Age of Empires II: The Conquerers will be released today!                   |
|                                                                              |
|  A Demo of either AoE II or The Conquerers can be found just about anywhere  |
|  now.                                                                        |
|                                                                              |
'--------------------=================================-------------------------'


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Version -  1.0   Everything is new, of course.
           1.1   Added a few things.
           1.2   A minor change.
           1.3   A few minor changes.
           1.4   Made a large update.  I figured I'd include a bunch of tips
                 and strategies.  More to come in the days to come.
           1.5   Removed the large section from above since The Conquerers will
                 be released in a week and a half.

                 Split the FAQ into 3 volumes to reduce "load" times.

                 Added more Message Board Posts

           1.6   Added another post.

           Final Second update for today.  This is the Final Version for this
                 FAQ.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

If you have anything you would like to submit, please do so.  Send it to
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-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
                                Table of Contents
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
                      Sections 1-9 are in Volume 1!

   10.      Message Board Posts

   11.      Credits, Links, and Closing



-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
10.                      Message Board Posts
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

       This section is being devoted to those wonderful people who use the
       message boards on various sites for the purpose to find help and
       to help others.

       This section is just FULL of tips, suggestions, strategies, and general
       game help.  I've left everything unaltered, so the spelling may be
       horrible at times.

A better form of the flush?

BTD_DEathTraP
Forum Member posted 08-15-00 07:06 PM EDT (US)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
OK, we all know the flush is a very good strategy, but the major weakness of
it is this: You have almost no food, so if your opponent castles before you,
you are pretty much dead.
So, you may be thinking, what is a good solution to this strategy???
Answer: Castling before you do your attack.
I've been experimenting with the Mongols, and here is what I have found so
far:

I go for the normal fast castle strategy with the Mongols, with the exception
that I only build 19 villigers in the Dark Age. I then Feudel, and in Feudel,
I build 2 villies, and hit the castle button ASAP.
During the Feudel-Castle transition I take 2-3 forward builders, and build a
Barracks, and 2 archery ranges. I also put 13 villigers on wood, 5 on gold, 2
on food, and 1 on stone. Once the archery ranges are finished, I queue up as
many archers as possible.
I Castle at about 15:25. (I've only tried this once, and it was on fast
speed, so if I do it on normal speed, I would castle at around 14:30 or so)
By about the 17:00 minute mark, I have attacked my opponents wood and gold
with about 8 Crossbowman and 3 spearmen. I am also putting up 2 overlapping
towers, usually covering his wood, and hopefully some of his farms.
About 3 minutes later, I am beginning to send in a few knights, as well as 2
or 3 Rams. While I do this attack, I begin to boom at home.

Positives of this strategy:
-You are still hitting your opponent early in the game, most likely while
they are advancing to castle, so they don't have a very big army.
-You can usually kill about 7 villigers right away, most of which are on
wood, so they cannot build more TC's.
-You are already in castle, so if this attack fails, you can still easily
recover.

Negatives:
-It doesn't come as quick as a flush.


I was wondering if any of you have tried a strategy similar to this, or if
you think that this will be effective?

Author Replies:

BTD_DEathTraP
Forum Member posted 08-15-00 09:56 PM EDT (US)    3 / 3
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks for responding guys!
If anyone would like a recording of this type of strategy I just finished a
good game. It's me (_elitegamer_) and SITH_Sideon vs. 2 members of "iNsaNe_"
clan. Anyways, it involves me getting a 15:30 castle time, and rushing with
Crossbowman. It also shows a good counter to this. In the end, our opponents
resigned because of lag, (but partly because we were beating them!

Oh, BTW, this game could even help some of you intermediate players as well.
I would judge this game as a High Inter/Low expert game. Some good strats are
used!

E-mail me for a copy at Ace014@aol.com

P.S. Eric-sure I'm up for a game, just e-mail me or something.

Captain_N
Forum Member posted 08-15-00 08:45 PM EDT (US)    2 / 3
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Deathtrap is mean to slow-castlers.  I mean, what did those villies do to
him? I was just trying to play Sim-City with my base one day and he came in
and..and..and...k-killed it!!! Whaa!
Anyway, I like to do early Castle attacks, so this is neat.


Eric Liu
Forum Member posted 08-15-00 08:19 PM EDT (US)    1 / 3
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Gee, I knew I could count on you to find better ways to us poor boomers...
Say, you up for a game this Saturday? I don't have time during weekdays
anymore- school started

-Eric

P.S. PLEASE don't RUSH me!! Maybe we should play a water map, but then again,
I'm not good at them.


-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

An awesome strat (I want credit as the originator)

The_Noble_Savij
Forum Member posted 08-15-00 03:48 PM EDT (US)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

First five villies on food. Next 11 on wood. Loom. Train six more
villies-sent to wood. Build mill adjacent to TC. Build lumbercamp at nearest
supply of wood. Click to advance to Feudal. Send six villies to enemey town.
Move four woodies to stone. As soon as Feudal is done researching, delete TC.
Immediatly build blacksmith and research arrow tech. Build TC 1 tile out of
range of enemy TC. Garrisson two TC builders and queue up four more. Send
four other TC builders to begin building towers and barracks. Build two
towers, within range of each other, at home. Switch two woodies and two stone
to gold.
By douching with a mill and lumbercamp still available at your town, you
allow your economy to continue to function. As soon as the arrow tech is done
researching you will be within range of your opponents TC. A 22 villager
feudal should give you a jump on your opponent. From that point on it's a
typical Flush with towers going up preferrably on the opposite side of the TC
where he'll no doubt be trying to build additional farms and various other
camps you've negated with your TC. Should your douche be stopped you still
have an economy going back home. Just get to castle and build another TC
there. If he counters you have towers into which to garrison. Regardless, his
economy will be devistatingly slowed, while yours is just somewhat slowed.
This should take much much less micromanagement than a Flush and you don't
have to worry about your douche or towers doing all the work because the
point is still to get to castle first and get rams and knights in his town.
He'll probably think you're purely douching and will do everything he can to
take out your TC under the assumption that doing so will win him the game.

Author Replies:

tonto_real
Forum Member posted 08-15-00 09:49 PM EDT (US)    10 / 10
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And Tsar weighs in with theepitome "droll".
BTW, Tsar_IvanIV, you asked some where "why" you hadn't been banned yet. I
think that is probably because the Angels sorta recognize that, while
sometimes pestiferous, your posts are for the most part droll instead of
troll. Mebbe.......


------------------------------------------------------------------------------

tonto_real, Emperor by acclamation, TONTO EMPIRE
(What's "tonto" mean?);)

for yor "Knightly spurs" JOIN US! TONTO EMPIRE @
http://www.geocities.com/tonto_clan/enter.htm


Tsar_IvanIV
Forum Member posted 08-15-00 09:33 PM EDT (US)    9 / 10
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

..DONT LISTEN TO THOSE GUYS ..THIS IS A NICE STRAT!!!CONGRADULATIONS
MAN!!!!!WE CAN MAKE A BOOK TOGETHER CALLED "BEST START EVER WHICH" GOOD
STRAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

yin26
Forum Member posted 08-15-00 09:20 PM EDT (US)    8 / 10
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It's always nice to see people coming up with new or improved stategies. So
you deserve credit for being creative and sharing your ideas.
However, as regards this specific strategy:

1. Using TCs this way is just sad no matter how you do it.
2. The x-pack recognizes this fact.
3. You mention SEVERAL towers going up--at home and at the other guys base.
You don't have enough villies to get that much stone quickly enough, meaning
the enemy can simply relocate as needed thereby outbooming you.
4. Just remember that niether a TC nor a tower moves. Once in place, that's
it. After that, they only kill something that moves within rage. The smart
player would know this, simply move, get to Castle much ahead of you and
start killing your homebase, most likely with just a few knights (even if it
has a tower or two).

You need (and should need) troops to win the game, which requires much more
economic and military skill than simply erecting building. On the other hand,
this strategy wants buildings to do all the fighting, which is perhaps one of
the reasons people have reacted negatively to it. Besides, it has little
chance of working against a decent player, so people criticize perhaps too
harshly.

Anyway, the x-pack will make this stuff obsolete. Thank God.


The_Noble_Savij
Forum Member posted 08-15-00 05:31 PM EDT (US)    7 / 10
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I usually have seven to eight villagers on food and get great feudal times.
Five only hurts you a little. Ten sheep and two boars will basically get you
there and you'll need the wood. The point, once again, is not to get a fast
Feudal time, but to get a good feudal time, be able to douche and keep your
economy going.
Why does everybody here have to be a payer-hater? I don't give a ****, but
I'm still wondering why.


no one at all
Forum Member posted 08-15-00 05:04 PM EDT (US)    6 / 10
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

With 5 villagers on food, what was your Feudal time? Seems like everyone else
would have Castled before you Feudaled.

Aphroqueen
Forum Member posted 08-15-00 04:30 PM EDT (US)    5 / 10
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

sigh....yet another old strat with a new hat.
With all the people playing this game, cant we do better than this?

I say this knowing I'm not better than you, all of my strats have sucked as
well


The Kyaia
Forum Member posted 08-15-00 04:27 PM EDT (US)    4 / 10
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

How are you supposed to get a fast feudal and keep constant villie flow with
only 5 vills at food?
And why would anyone do this strat anyway? it's lame.


The_Noble_Savij
Forum Member posted 08-15-00 04:21 PM EDT (US)    3 / 10
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Granted, it will be obsolete in two weeks, but until then it's valid.  And I
did try some of this strat just to see if it was reasonably possible and it
was.
If you notice, there's no mention of making men-at-arms, just barracks so you
can make archery ranges for archers which require no food and stables later
for knights. You should have an excess of wood and a jump on the market
trade, so you can get a little extra gold and buy some food in a pinch, or
just switch a few more woodies to food. You only need to grind your way into
Castle where you'll be able to get your econ back up to speed.

I also give instruction to switch a few stonies and woodies to gold in case
you didn't catch that.

The bottom line is that it would take somebody far longer to recover on the
receiving end of this than it will for you to sputter your way out of Feudal.
I mentioned that stuff about credit just to get people to read and respond.

I've been trying to find an easy to execute but devistating early attack that
would allow me to continue to have a decent economy at home. I think this
accomplishes that better than any other strat I've found.


GPA_Chooch709
Forum Member posted 08-15-00 03:58 PM EDT (US)    2 / 10
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

lol - TAKE THE CREDIT!! no one wants it...2 weeks the xpack comes out and the
tcs dont get the blacksmith upgrades no more...on top of that how are u going
to support any m@a with 5 vils on food?? and where are u getting gold from
other than the 50 u have left over after after loom?? have u tried this strat
out?? i bet u r going to say next that this works best against persians
LOL...if i m getting the wrong idea tell me...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

AIM: Chooch709, ZONE: GPA_Chooch709
~Elite Sponge~ & ~GPA Leader~
My Awards Page
Spongers Anonymous
Sponges Recorded Games!


AFK_Tick
Forum Member posted 08-15-00 03:51 PM EDT (US)    1 / 10
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I thought that the TC no longer got range upgrades with the archery techs. Am
I mistaken?

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Still having problems with Champ flooding


Tarentola
Forum Member posted 07-28-00 11:01 AM EDT (US)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Got Champ flooded AGAIN today. Now I'm sick and tired of it.
A lot of good players seem to Champ flood with use Vikes as civ, for these
reasons:
1) Champs are cost-wise the best units and one of the hardest to counter.
2) Vikes have the best Champs in the game.
3) Vikes have a good economy.

As soon as I see anyone choosing Vikes as civ I'll go defensive and take
Saracens as civ. As dumb as this may sound, Sarcs have the following units that
are good versus Champs: Champions, Arbalests, Hand Cannonneers, Siege Onagers.
I've had great results killing enemy infantry (with Persians): make infantry or
heavy cav (drawback for Sarcs) of you own, engage a champ horde, and while
they're fighting have Onagers fire into the mass. The Onagers should be
protected by lots of Arbs or HCs and some Champs of your own. With some monks
as healing this could work quite nicely. It's extreme combined arms, I admit,
but I wouldn't know a better way to kill the hordes.

Author Replies:

CreamingSoda
Forum Member posted 08-02-00 07:41 PM EDT (US)    22 / 22
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you know your opponent is going to try champ flood, mass arbs, maybe scorps
with your own champs & castle/TC b/up. Had this happen to me several times when
I've gone infantry heavy against better players (and we get to imperial in
reasonable shape ). Many many times my champ flood has decimated the opposition,
but every now & then against a better player they seem to know exactly what to
do, their mass ranged units with support get the upper hand, by the time I try
to get skirmies or whatever to support I am on the defensive  Champ floods are
still hard to stop though. Anybody noticed a lot of people go lots of archers
now? (maybe because of all the champ flooding).

Leonard VI
Forum Member posted 08-02-00 05:59 PM EDT (US)    21 / 22
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Walls are also a cheap way to frustrate a champ flood. Even if they can break
through your wall, there is still a nice choke point where they can get all
bottlenecked.

Leonard VI
Forum Member posted 08-02-00 05:50 PM EDT (US)    20 / 22
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Walls are also a cheap way to frustrate a champ flood. Even if they can break
through your wall, there is still a nice choke point where they can get all
bottlenecked.

hcchcchcchcchcc
Forum Member posted 07-31-00 04:51 AM EDT (US)    19 / 22
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I maybe should have mentioned that champ flooding is imo the most powerful and
rewarding strategy available in mid imperial. Superior to paladin flood. And a
simple one. I try to do it as often as I can.

hcchcchcchcchcc
Forum Member posted 07-31-00 04:48 AM EDT (US)    18 / 22
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Looking at the answers in this thread, what many people don't seem to have
realised is the fundamentals of how to defeat slow moving, non-ranged units 
such as champion flood. There are in principle two ways of doing this. Using
ranged or non-ranged units.
A champion flood to me is defined by a more or less continuous flow of champions
produced in mid imperial when the economy is strong, from presumably many
barracks, with their gather point set in such way that the champions will
immediately seek up the next enemy and engage in hand-to-hand combat. Likely
in the direction of your home town or other strategic location of yours.

If you use non-ranged units then you must engage the enemy in hand-to-hand
combat. Micromanaging the units has only a limited impact on the outcome, if
any at all. The outcome is simply the result of the combination of i) sheer
numbers ii) unit attributes (hitpoints, attack. armor). The best hand-to hand
unit against champions, regarding the cost, is champions or possibly upgraded
cavalry such as paladins. A few other slow and specialized units such as TKs
could also support the champions since speed is not critical. This assumes that
you have enough buildings to produce enough units fast enough. In this case it
helps if you are a strong infantry civ (Vikings, Japanese and Goths first tier).
When you run out of resources (probably gold first, food is probably not a
critical resource in mid imperial) or your enemy destroys your barracks faster
than you can re-build them you lose. Simple as that. He with the most gold, he
wins.

Ranged units against slow moving units such as infantry is viable since the
accuracy is perhaps 75% with ballistics researched. However if you use ranged
units then you first of all need too gather enough of them so that they generate
a hail of arrows that will in effect kill the infantry before they are engaging
your archers in combat. A champion that makes it through the arrow hail and
starts to chop your vulnerable archers is lethal! [This goes under the over and
over discussed topics how to stop massed longbows et al.] In this case
tactical skills such as micromanaging your archers and placing them in such a
way that you maximize the damage has a definitive impact on the result. You want
to spread your fire so that you do not overkill half of the enemy champions and
let the other half mow down your archers. Best is to try to hit as many
champions as possible.

Back to the question. My answer is have enough barracks to produce cannon
fodder (champions or in worst case pikes) or possibly cavalry if you are a
cavalry civ (persians, franks) and behind these ranges, siege workshops or
castles in order to produce in order of preference 1) heavy scorpions 2) HCs or
Jannissaries 3) arbalests or longbows 4)chuks. 5) elite skirmishers. Simply take
the best ranged unit you have researched, is available and you can afford. The
point is that the enemy champions will hit the first enemy visible, your
infantry under fire from your archers.

I will never, never use onagers simply because micromanaging them is simply
impossible. The result is always predictable. The first wave of champions are
often slaughtered. Then some onagers get smashed and the surviving onagers will
start crushing each other, unless they are on no attack stance in which case
they are sitting ducks and in principle worthless.



delphiwarrior2
Forum Member posted 07-31-00 03:16 AM EDT (US)    17 / 22
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey, I am a player who plays with champ-floods, therefor I put my 2 cents in
here. I usually goes into castle in mid-17 with 30-31 villagers. I immediately
put up towncenters (one near stone resources),preferely one just outside enemy
camp, then I pump villages out like a mad man and places one towncenter on the
map when I got tree for it. If a play against a newbie/rookie I build a siege
workshop and a barrack just behind my forward tc. I build 5-6 pikies and 3-4
rams. Then I take all my villages at the forward mining camp (8-12) and starts
building a castle right in his town. If he dont react quickly he will me build.
Then my rams attacks his tc and if knights ride for attack I use my pikies. If
all of this fails I build up 6-10 barracks near his camp, and pumping out
champs. building 10 every min makes 50 after 5 min, then I storm his city with
champs/trebs. As a defence at home I masses Pikies,castles and walls. Usually
the game only takes about 40 min or so..
..... and yes, scorpions is the best defence for champs, maybe paladins, but if
you succed to disturb the enemies "normal way yo play" he probably will lose
sooner or laster...

Hussar
Forum Member posted 07-29-00 06:07 AM EDT (US)    16 / 22
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think siege onagers can kill massive infantry in one load BUT if this is a
champ flood, champs came from different barracks and they are not grouped
together. Perhaps a onager can kill 1 or 2 champs but they will be killed
quickly soon. They take a long time in making and they are not cost effective
(really expensive)!
Only walls and castles can stop the flood but they are vulnerable vs trebs.
Maybe you can use champ flood and scorpions and hand cannoneers vs champ flood.


SiLent_SniPer
Forum Member posted 07-29-00 06:07 AM EDT (US)    15 / 22
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To win champs you have to take advantage of their weak points. Which is 1. Melee
attack (Although powerful they need to get close to attack) and 2. Lack of speed.
1. Obviously to take advantage of weakness #1 is ranged units. Arbs, onagers,
scorps and HCs. Onagers are life-savers (especially if they are in rectangle
formation lol!!) But be warned, you will stone ur own troops too, scorps are my
choice.

2. Cavalry, they can get to champs and kill them before they arrive at your
town. Cavalry has a small bomus against infantry, if I'm not mistaken.

3. Both. Cavalry archers! Combination of both speed and ranged attack, they
are, theoretically the best counter. theoretically (mispelled?).

The best a combination is HCs/Archers (if possible, janies even!), some
cavalry, some scorps. If you like micro-tactics, make CA's and do hit-and-run.
Doesn't really work because of lag, but you will make him really mad. Intercapt
them with cavalry and have you HCs/Archers in the background. Scorps will stand
at the very back, bring a monk if possible, to heal troops after the fight.

[This message has been edited by SiLent_SniPer (edited 07-29-2000).]


Alexander
Forum Member posted 07-29-00 03:39 AM EDT (US)    14 / 22
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Try to kill him/her before they get to Imperial. My floods have been stopped
because the guy castle rushed me and I had to stay in castle and fight instead
of boom to imperial. I killed him though.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|ICQ: 59525457|
|Fried Onion's Empire|
|CCs Wittiest Post Award x2|
|Email: Alexander@friedonions.cjb.net|
|Zone Name: CC_Alexander - Canadian Clan|

FLA_ProfessorRandom
Forum Member posted 07-29-00 00:53 AM EDT (US)    13 / 22
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One by one, they are even easier to deal with...actually I've never played a
vike player who sends them in one by one...every champ flood I've seen is
groups of maybe 10 or 20 at a time, every minute or so.

White_Raven0
Forum Member posted 07-29-00 00:46 AM EDT (US)    12 / 22
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But the thing is champ flood doesnt come in groups, it's usually 7 barracks
creating champs one by one with away point in ur town. Ya archers have a hard
time dealing with 50 at the same time, but not one at a time... About that 20
seige ornas, I have not seen a RM game where one person has enough time and
resource and courage to make 20 of those things, and U know what, some LC will
take ur things out... no one uses lbows along by themselves.
[This message has been edited by White_Raven0 (edited 07-29-2000).]


FLA_ProfessorRandom
Forum Member posted 07-29-00 00:36 AM EDT (US)    11 / 22
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Two words:
Heavy Scorpions

Scorpions in a group of oh, say maybe 10 at the bare minimum...with a couple
pikes in the vicinity to gum up the champs and deter cavalry raids...will
totally annihilate champs. I mean, they will CRUSH them...I mean, it is very,
very possible that they will lose 30 champs and you will lose a couple pikes.

[This message has been edited by FLA_ProfessorRandom (edited 07-29-2000).]


BTD_DEathTraP
Forum Member posted 07-28-00 10:09 PM EDT (US)    10 / 22
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tarentola...You say you are being champ flooded ALL the time? The best way to
stop that is.....A FLUSH! The easiest way to beat someone that is turtling to
get to Imperial is to him early, and hit him hard. Here is another solution:
Since you normally play people who champ flood you, I assume that you do mostly
Imperial age fighting. A good solution would be Turks. They get the 3 most
important units for stopping infantry.
1. Bombard tower
2. Bombard cannon
3. Elite Jannisarry. (Each one has an 18 attack with 60 hitpoints.)

To stop a champ flod of say, 60 Champs, here is a VERY succesful combo:
40 EJanns, and 6 bombard cannons. Go do it in scenario editor sometime. Bombard
cannons can take out a few with every shot. I hope this helps!


Zero
Forum Member posted 07-28-00 09:36 PM EDT (US)    9 / 22
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I would use lots of arbs, or elbows, and toss in a bunch of heavy cavalry. you
kight also try using cav archers. It really ticks people of having a bunch of
cav archers running around them always taying out of reach.

Tarentola
Forum Member posted 07-28-00 06:41 PM EDT (US)    8 / 22
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sorry to tell, you, but I've had bad results with using archers vs. swordsmen.
They're supposed to be the natural counter, but in my experience they don't do
enough damage and die horribly to swordsmen that come close.
I'll try some different solutions, but it seems to me you need a) heavy cav and
b) onagers.
Oh, and White_Raven, 100 Elbows are perfectly counterable. 50 Eskirms and 20
Siege Onagers really pull the plug on those archers

White_Raven0
Forum Member posted 07-28-00 06:20 PM EDT (US)    7 / 22
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hehe, i play team games mostly and love to see when 3 of my teammates are
britons and the other team use infantry hehe. There would always be an insaine
amound of archers that nothing can penetrate. When elite longbow reaches the
number of above 100 with the protection of pikeman, the game is over.

Leonard VI
Forum Member posted 07-28-00 06:10 PM EDT (US)    6 / 22
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Champ floods are supposed to frustrate the enemy, especially their buildings.
That is why they get 3 bonus against them, becuase they're meant to mop-up the
place. That, and fighting a good fight as well. The only effective way to fight
it is to outspend your opponent (presuming a FLOOD already implies that you're
outnumbered).
Getting sick of that is probably the wrong term!! Do you get sick of landing on
Boardwalk (with someone's hotel on it) when you play Monopoly? Of course! In a
way it's similar. It is expensive to get a Hotel (so is upgrading and training
a horde of champs), but the payoff is huge (wiping out buildings, villagers,
and armies).

Well, I suppose what I've said is not all that enlightening or will help you
deal with that dreaded horde of champs. I thought I'd just slip in a little
analogy.


The Noble Savage
Forum Member posted 07-28-00 01:23 PM EDT (US)    5 / 22
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sure, but your arbs will stay alive longer against Viking champs and; therefore,
will get more shots in. But the point is moot. I'd say Japanese and Viking
champs are basically equal.
To stop champs use HCs and arbs. Mix in some fodder like pikes, LC or champs of
your own and your expensive HCs and arbs should be nearly untouched. Walls and
castles are also fairly effective. If you can bring the battle under the shadow
of a pair of castles or garrisoned TCs you'll be able to defeat him with half
as many numbers as him.

The only thing to really fear enmass are archers. Archers backed by pikes are
incredibly incredibly deadly. If he has even a handful of cavs to take care of
onagers or has castles nearby to run to, you should be very afraid.


Tonto_Andy
Forum Member posted 07-28-00 12:44 PM EDT (US)    4 / 22
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No, Viking champs are best. Champs are weakest against ranged units, and
Vikings survive against them longer. Sure Japanese champs can kill stuff faster
IF they get to it, but until they do Viking champs are better. Also, the Vikes
get a much better economy than Japanese.
BTW, I know a Japanese champ beats a Viking one. That wasn't my point.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Freshly Reincarnated!

WildGecko911
Forum Member posted 07-28-00 12:17 PM EDT (US)    3 / 22
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Astro Wolf is correct, Japanese Champions are the best.
Anyway, the best way to stop Champ flooding is prevention. You either have to
win the game in Castle(this doesn't necessarily mean actually defeating the
opponent, crippling him is nice too  and the other way is raiding farms. 60
food isn't a lot by itself, but 3000 food is(50 Champs). As long as you fight
heavily in Castle, and raid farms, you really don't have to worry about Champ
floods.

If the guy walls off his food and makes a fast Imp, try using HScorps. They do
cost a lot, but your losses will be VERY low, so it's not like you will need to
pump them out. Arbs are good too, but you will end up losing a good amount of
them. Their cost, 45 Gold isn't bad, but having to replenish your forces
constantly will drain your gold fast.


The Noble Savage
Forum Member posted 07-28-00 11:42 AM EDT (US)    2 / 22
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Actually, I think Japanese champs are the best in the game, but I'm not sure.
To stop champs you need ranged units. Try three separate groups of arbalests
all within range of each other.


the_Astro_Wolf
Forum Member posted 07-28-00 11:33 AM EDT (US)    1 / 22
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am champ flooded myself quiet a few times. SO I thought let's use this
strategy myself. It worked in many of my next games and I was confident with
it. Then i had an opponent who used heavy scorpions against my champs and my
champs got messed up. The point here is that to stop infantry scorpions with
some defences are the best choice.

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No farm strategy (possible?)


The Noble Savage
Forum Member posted 07-31-00 04:11 PM EDT (US)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I was playing a game vs comp last night and was just going for a fast
imperial time. I had 12 villies total on food--6 on sheparding/herding and 6
on berries. The rest were all on wood. As soon as the berries were exhausted
I put them all on gold instead of farms because I was going to need 800 for
imperial. I could have sent them on wood and sold it, but I was using wood
for only fishing boats at the time and wanted a sustainable supply of gold
for a quick treb strike.
I hit imperial at 23:00 and had plenty of gold and a surplus of over 1000
food from my fishing boats. I switched all my goldies and a lot of other
villagers to stone for a castle, buying some stone along the way. I had about
12 villies on stone and I quickly got enough for a castle. I sent all 12 to
forward build a castle at my opponents base. Two survived the castle's
completion and, with the help of a nearby barracks, brought down his town.

What got me thinking was the fact that I hadn't made a single farm. I was
getting food from fishing boats and could have defended them with
wood-and-gold-requiring galleys.

With all your villagers on wood and gold, you'd always have enough for siege,
ships, and archers. In addition, your ships could be defending food gathering
fishing boats to fund champs or knights or whatever--but you'd likely want to
use that food most efficiently on pikes and use them to protect your archers.
Woodies and goldies require no planning or micromanagement. Imaging 120
villagers on gold and wood. Eventually they'd all be on wood, but you'd have
an abundance to sell and you could always buy food if you really needed it.
The key, obviously, would be gobbling up all the gold on the map first, so
you'd just have to drop TCs--probably multiple TCs to defend each other--by
as many as you can find.

A side benefit of this strategy would be that you wouldn't have a huge
metropolis of farms that need protecting. You'd just have TCs up near wood
supplies and gold piles. and tons of military buildings up everywhere because
you'd have more wood than you know what to do with.

Anyway, I haven't spent a week experimenting with this strat and I'm pretty
sure I'm not explaining it well because I'm on my lunchbreak. But if it makes
sense to you, what do you think?

BTW: If this becomes a popular strat I want to name it "The Subsidy." (sp)

Author Replies:

CreamingSoda
Forum Member posted 08-01-00 08:47 PM EDT (US)    19 / 19
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No farms!? scary  I guess its doable on the right map (lots of fish) & you
control the sea.
23min Imperial with heaps of resources is impressive

PS: from what I have seen a flush is usually archers & towers with maybe
pikes, not men@arms


Zero
Forum Member posted 08-01-00 08:12 PM EDT (US)    18 / 19
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

FLA_ProfessorRandom, thank you for telling me about the time concern. I had
forgetten about it. I'll try using no farms tonight. I'll probley be
byzantine since they have reduced food costs for pike and imperial age
advancement. That should help with food issues. I'll let you know how it
works.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I appear to be the only person on the face of the internet that doesn't think
Cats are wortless. I guess I'm what you would call a nutcase.

BlakNite_JNK
Forum Member posted 08-01-00 07:53 PM EDT (US)    17 / 19
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I tried this strategyin my last game once with the bynz(what was I thinking?)
and once with the sacs(good market). I got rushed in both cases, one flush
and a tower rush, both case was because I ran out of food too fast, and into
the last castle-early imperial, I was beaten. This strat needs a lil
tweaking, I'd say you should at LEAST build 4 farms or something like that,
to get steady foo supply. Though I like this strategy because 1)no farm
managing, also no farm upgrades 2)less wood on farms, thus more wood for
buildings, siege and archers units
castle time wasn't that bad, cause in both cases I was able to castle 18-19,
but it still needs some work. Im gonna experiment vs the computer and on the
zone tonite, and I'll let u know if I can find something new with this strat


------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Battle doesn't need a purpose; the battle is it's own purpose.
You don't ask why a plague spreads or a field burns.
Don't ask why I fight."

-Black Knight-

The Noble Savage
Forum Member posted 08-01-00 07:35 PM EDT (US)    16 / 19
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

****. Post an interesting strat for people to discuss and get some guy
boasting about how he'll use a run-of-the-mill FLUSH to defeat it.
Btw. What stops flushes? Archers. Archers can take out men-at-arms and
forward building villies. What resources do archers use? Wood and gold. Not
to mention, if I did manage to stop your run-of-the-mill FLUSH and made it to
castle, I'd have a wave of siege headed at you. And, btw, your dock was
destroyed a few minutes ago and those farms that got planted too close to the
shore are vacant now. Oops, I forgot, you're FLUSHing, I guess I should just
resign.


Eumaies
Forum Member posted 08-01-00 05:43 PM EDT (US)    15 / 19
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Heehee, hi trouble-- nice to see you here

Trouble_4_U
Forum Member posted 08-01-00 05:15 PM EDT (US)    14 / 19
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Your strategy is flawed because your opponent was the computer. If you were
playing me, first of all u would not be able to go unfettered for 23 to Imp
so fast. As most my games go, I try to be on the enemy in late Feudal or
early Castle, definately before the 20 min mark. He who defends the seas, is
more vulnerable to an attack by land. So fish all u want, Trouble is just
around the corner.

CaptainSirk
Forum Member posted 08-01-00 02:29 PM EDT (US)    13 / 19
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have seen this done in a 3v3 game on the zone. It was a Baltic map (I
think), and my ally told me at the end of the game that he didn't build a
single farm. We had control of the lake, and he had a ton of fishing ships
all over the place. And, believe it or not, he was the economic powerhouse of
the game. It was hilarious.

Eumaies
Forum Member posted 08-01-00 12:31 PM EDT (US)    12 / 19
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes, it works fine-- fishing can take you very very far-- but only if your
team owns the seas.... if i'm able to keep all my fishing boats alive i can
skip farming for a long time. Much longer if i'm saracen, and can just trade
for the food to get to imperial age.

The Noble Savage
Forum Member posted 08-01-00 12:16 PM EDT (US)    11 / 19
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think most people are missing the point. You use your massive amounts of
wood and gold to buy siege and archers and supplement them with very
food-easy pikes. It's a great combo anytime. Plus you can own the sea and any
resources near the shore. You can get enough food for 40 pikes very easily by
using slow fishing traps or selling your incredible excess of wood. With this
strategy you wouldn't train infantry or stable units because they just use
too much food.
In castle is where you would shine. Dropping TCs everywhere, sending tons of
siege at his town with archers and pikes keeping his swordsman and cavalry
away from your rams and mangonels.

I agree this strategy isn't prudent if you plan on training cavalry and
infantry other than pikes, but I think you could be victorious in a mid
castle rush or siege, archers, and pikes. But, hey, it's a radical strat
anyway.

[This message has been edited by The Noble Savage (edited 08-01-2000).]


chicogohope
Forum Member posted 08-01-00 08:52 AM EDT (US)    10 / 19
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you have 12 vills and 6 are on berries and 6 are on sheep, how do you have
"the rest" on wood?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

2 out of 3 experts agree, I SUCK!
If you shower with your clothes on, people can see you're crazy.
If you shower with your clothes off, people can see your nuts.

JamisonT
Forum Member posted 08-01-00 03:51 AM EDT (US)    9 / 19
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

making 29 villager is ideal for late boom but its risky to get rushed early.
i usually make 24 villagers, around 12 on food, 9 on wood, and the rest on
building stuffs. gold mining on dark age is kinda useless.
well fishing trap was ideal on AOE1 but on AOK its kinda slow also u need lot
of wood to build them.
100 wood for fish trap, 50 wood for fishing boat, 150 for dock it cost too
much in dark age.


icewall
Forum Member posted 08-01-00 01:59 AM EDT (US)    8 / 19
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Play rivers and use shore fish. I just got done w/ a game where I
concentrated on them and it worked pretty well. I started my usual 4 farms at
my TC to fast castle, then I sent villagers to gather shore fish. Put mills
next to groups of two fish and gather. My wood boomed and I started dropping
TCs all over. Of course I still built a load of farms anyway but all that
fish really boosted my food. I am talking about like maybe up to 12 vilagers
at a time shore fishing. There are a LOT of shore fish on rivers maps. You
could probably work it without needing any farms.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I will find a way...if there is no way, I will make one - Hannibal
{ICQ 68763059}
[This message has been edited by icewall (edited 08-01-2000).]


Hussar
Forum Member posted 08-01-00 01:50 AM EDT (US)    7 / 19
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NO FARMING? This topic scares me!
I love farming!

Standard starting in Dark age,
1. I put 6 villies on sheep meat,
2. 6 on wood,
3. 6 on berry,
4. 5 on wood,
5. 6 more on stone or gold mining.

Then I can have steady food income for making new villagers and wood for
build resources dropsites.

The sheperds give you food quickly, on the other hand, the sheep meats run
out quickly.

Then I will start building farms! Farming seems to need more woods than
hunting deers or boars, or fishing on the shore.

However,
a) you don't need to task your villagers far from the TC, the farms can be
placed anywhere you want, thus safe;
b) the farming process(and building farms) is very fast!
c) And, farming(60 wood with one villager giving 175) food can be somehow
cheaper than hunting(100 wood plus 5 villagers giving 340 food). Plz try.


FLA_ProfessorRandom
Forum Member posted 08-01-00 00:51 AM EDT (US)    6 / 19
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Zero writes:

quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Um, Fla_Proffessor(hope I spelled it right) counldn't he just build fishing
traps? It would be 100 wood for what 700 food? better than a farm. Althought
the traps would also, be easily attacked with demo ships. I guess you could
put them near your dock with towers on land and a large blockade of ships
like fire ships and galleon(or longboat) whatever works to stop the
attacks(and you can afford). I did that one game and they were fairly safe.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Yes, he could build fish traps but I immediately discounted them because they
are very notoriously slow. Even with Japanese ships, it takes 1 minute to
collect 15 food! I mean, they are SLOW!


I tried no-farms today and it will work up into late castle/early imperial (I
was Japanese on Continental). However throughout late castle, I was VERY
strapped for food. Interesting thought though...it seems clear to me now that
farms must be built at SOME time to remain competetive, but it's a fun
exercise to see how long you can delay your first farm and still be "in the
game".


Zero
Forum Member posted 08-01-00 00:20 AM EDT (US)    5 / 19
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

P.S. It would probley be good for crater lake since there are lots of fish.
Just be japenees do your fb can last longer. Or byzantine due to thier access
to all ships.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I appear to be the only person on the face of the internet that doesn't think
Cats are wortless. I guess I'm what you would call a nutcase.


Zero
Forum Member posted 08-01-00 00:18 AM EDT (US)    4 / 19
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Um, Fla_Proffessor(hope I spelled it right) counldn't he just build fishing
traps? It would be 100 wood for what 700 food? better than a farm. Althought
the traps would also, be easily attacked with demo ships. I guess you could
put them near your dock with towers on land and a large blockade of ships
like fire ships and galleon(or longboat) whatever works to stop the
attacks(and you can afford). I did that one game and they were fairly safe.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I appear to be the only person on the face of the internet that doesn't think
Cats are wortless. I guess I'm what you would call a nutcase.

IV1066
Forum Member posted 07-31-00 10:22 PM EDT (US)    3 / 19
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I've done this no farm thing, never thought it very wise however. It worked
in 2 on 2 Baltic, I was viks and used my longboats/e cannon galleys to
destroy large portions of 2 towns, my ally (forget who), sent in big land
armies with some archers from me. By the end I had enough wood to get enough
food for champs, but in the castle age I was lucky no one attacked me early.
You could make this work, but you need a good ally (preferably someone you
know), a nice watery map so your really large navy is useful, and a little
bit of luck. Personally I can't wait till teutons are unbanned because of the
cheap farms, it is a really great eco advantage.

the_basilisk
Forum Member posted 07-31-00 10:11 PM EDT (US)    2 / 19
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm not that bad, but almost never have farms until I am almost 30 mins into
the game and well into my castle rush and saving for imp ( 18 min castle
average), more because I use up all the boars, deer, sheep, shorefish,
fishing ships, berries, that I can see...it works well, because forward
building is great with so much wood....
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ICQ: 6037262
Winner of no awards whatsoever.
Zone: The_Basilisk_ APC_Basilisk GPA_Basilisk
~Elite Sponge Knight~
~GPA Leader~

FLA_ProfessorRandom
Forum Member posted 07-31-00 05:46 PM EDT (US)    1 / 19
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Wow, interesting! Let me precede my critique by saying, it's great when
people think "outside the box". But now, here are the reasons it will not
work:
There is no renewable source of food other than farms and the market. Fish
are nice, but they deplete, and once depleted, your fishing boats have to
sail farther. Plus, I'm not entirely convinced that a fishing boat will bring
in food at a more efficient rate than a farmer will.

So, eventually you must depend on the market for food. What this means is,
you must depend on other people selling their food to create low prices for
yourself. What's the base price for buying food, 26 perhaps? In that case,
you will be selling 200 wood for 28 food, and buying 100 food with that. So
you are traiding 200 wood for 100 food. The benefit is, you get the food
immediately. The downside is, farms are a much more resourceful way to
convert wood into food, since they cost 60 wood and can produce 400 food (I
think it's 400).

Well, I'm still convinced this won't work vs. an opponent of equal skill.
However, I bet you could pull this off if you were able to strike quickly and
fast, before you started having to trade your wood for gold for food.

The main weak points in this strategy are:

1) the reliance upon others to sell their food so you can get good market
prices.

2) the trading of 200 wood for 100 food.

I'll try this in a game, and post my conclusion! Neat post!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The most important thing you can learn is how to consider the other person's
point of view.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Not start mining in dark age?

Guido
Forum Member posted 08-01-00 11:25 PM EDT (US)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

New to this place, and I've played the game for a while. I'd create my first
25 villagers and last 7 on mining (first 4 on gold, next 3 on stone), before
going on feudal. In fuedal, I'd research the enonomic upgrades, and castle
within 21 to 22 minutes, and after castle age begins, I can immediatly drop a
castle. I thought this is a good strategy as britions, but after seeing a lot
of castle times in under 20 minutes, because of not mining early, is my
strategy really easy to rush me?
And since many on you people don't advocate mining early, how do you get the
sufficient gold you like to make a castle age rush.
Author Replies:

Brad4321
Forum Member posted 08-01-00 11:40 PM EDT (US)    2 / 2
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Try putting less villies on mining about 4 2 on gold and 2 on stone, as soon
as you get 200 gold move your gold villies to stone if you want a castle as
soon as you advance. Since you will boom when you hit castle you might be
able to afford having no villies on gold. I usually only put 1 on stone and
the rest on gold because getting a castle up isn't as important as military
(go goths!!). If you do that you will have to boom like hell or you will be
to far behind.

BTD_DEathTraP
Forum Member posted 08-01-00 11:35 PM EDT (US)    1 / 2
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In most cases, you should ONLY concentrate on food/wood in the dark age.
If you are planning on a castle age rush, put 2-5 villies on gold in the
Feudel/castle transition, plus a few more once you reach castle. Typically
though, you may want to put 2 on during the dark-feudel transition, just
incase.
For other help, go to MFO.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Units or upgrades?

Brad4321
Forum Member posted 08-02-00 03:20 PM EDT (US)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lets say you had 750 food and 350 gold, and 20 thswordsman. Would it be
better to make more swordsman or upgrade to champs
Author Replies:

Trouble_4_U
Forum Member posted 08-02-00 04:04 PM EDT (US)    1 / 1
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That would depend on your situation. If you were under attack, it might suit
u better to make more units. Also if you are in the midst of a flush, making
units instead of upgrading might finish off your enemy. But if you are just
massing for an attack and your economy is doing well, upgrading to champs
would be good for the coming assault.
Trouble_4_U
Lots of players know how to resource. Its when the fighting begins that the
men get seperated from the boys.

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Mongols, The Unsung Civ

Trouble_4_U
Forum Member posted 08-01-00 03:39 PM EDT (US)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I would just like to say that after playing countless games and using
practically all civs and units, that I have found a combination that seems
unstoppable. The Mangudai horse archers in mass protected by pikemen and
champs. The fully upgraded Elite Mangudai mows down infantry and archers. If
someone brings Paladins against them, bring forward your pikes and while the
pikes engage the Paladins, the Mangudai continually rain down arrows on the
battle. They are also very effective at taking out seige such as onagers and
Trebs. They even take out buildings if you have enough of them. Just remember
to make lots of wood becase the Mangudai takes wood/gold while the pikeman
takes wood/food. So this recipe calls for lots of wood. Also dont forget that
no good combo is complete without a few priests hanging around to act as
battlefield medics. Try the unsung civ and their super combo and let me know
what you think.
Trouble_4_U



Author Replies:

Trouble_4_U
Forum Member posted 08-02-00 11:30 AM EDT (US)    8 / 8
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Adding Camels would not hurt, however this strat is a "wood-centric" strat.
However, having Camels and Pikes is kinda redundant, since both are for
killing horses. Try just the Mangudai and Pikes, and dont forget the "Medic
Monks."
Trouble_4_U


Desert
Forum Member posted 08-02-00 11:19 AM EDT (US)    7 / 8
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Don't Mongols get Camels? Camels offer the speed to keep the army moving
fast, and the anti-horse capabilities. The only problem now is that you have
to mass gold instead of wood. What you could also try is Mangs+Pikes+Camels.
The massed mangs mixed with a few camels march in to town, and when he
strikes with heavy cav, the mangs retreat, the camels hold them off and the
mangs come back with pikes to finish the job.

Khaleb
Forum Member posted 08-02-00 07:04 AM EDT (US)    6 / 8
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One more thing to praise the mangudai: they are the best unit for
castleprotection, one of the most important factors in the game, wheter for
defensive or offensive castles. On one hand no other unit contributes more to
castle damage (16 elite already max out castle-damage, and they are buildt in
it as well), one time i had an offensive castle buildt on a small elevation,
filled it with e-mangudais and placed my trebs around it, every shot killed
three to four enemy-units(!), on the other hand they just pop out and destroy
attacking trebs from a distance. I think they are the most flexible
treb-killer in the game. And once the trebs did their job, there is no better
"cleaning"-unit.

the_basilisk
Forum Member posted 08-01-00 11:24 PM EDT (US)    5 / 8
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That is very similar to the combo that I use aswell whenever I am mongols,
except, depending on the other person's civ, I sometiems substitute Heavy
Scorps for the pikes or champs, or maybe just add a few Scorps onto the army,
because of the better killing power vs massed infantry and buildings...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ICQ: 6037262
Winner of no awards whatsoever.
Zone: The_Basilisk_ APC_Basilisk GPA_Basilisk
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~GPA Leader~

SwiftAero
Forum Member posted 08-01-00 09:45 PM EDT (US)    4 / 8
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Having been on the receiving end of your attack, I can say that the
combination you describe is very effective. However, you must also give your
econonmy and unit control skills credit too. Maybe they have something to do
with your results as well.

Eumaies
Forum Member posted 08-01-00 05:54 PM EDT (US)    3 / 8
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The nicest thing about attacking with Mangudai against the nme base is that
once you win, none of their villagers will
escape alive.
- also, mobile archers with pikes is still useful, since you can run and help
the pikes when you need to, and raid while you're waiting for slow rams or
whatnot to arrive. Also run and hit the siege-- problem is i prefer something
besides mangudai against siege, cause killing siege usually is a great way to
lose troops to enemy archer/castle fire, and so i'd rather use some mongol
light cavalry mixed in.


Trouble_4_U
Forum Member posted 08-01-00 04:07 PM EDT (US)    2 / 8
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Using the Mangudai/Pikemen/Trebs combo together is good when u are trying to
take out the enemy home. Marching them around is not my point. The Mangudai
by themselves (with hunsbandry upgrade) are execellent at the hit and run
villager killing tactic. In my opinion, Magudai are much better than X-bowmen
because they are faster and have more hp's, of course they do cost a little
more.

Zero
Forum Member posted 08-01-00 03:55 PM EDT (US)    1 / 8
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That would work, but when you are in a stationary batle where they enemy is
coming after you wouldn't it be better to use x-bowmen? They have better
range and Magundais besides Having to march with pikemen totally eleminates
thier advantage against your opponent speed. IN fact I only use mongol when I
am playing with an ally with heavy duty units like fank or persian. I want to
be ble to use speed, you know sneak in take out some villagers and run away.
and thier to expensive to let them sit in battle. I normlly have an army of
foot soldiers, pikes, champs, x-bows. Then I hace an army of cavalry. Usually
Light cavalry and Magundai, they do hit and run attacks or lure the enemy
into an ambush. Like running them into a dead end on black forest then march
in infantry to shut them in(like the part in braveheart).
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I appear to be the only person on the face of the internet that doesn't think
Cats are wortless. I guess I'm what you would call a nutcase.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Unbeatable strategy


Lamer1
 posted 07-30-00 09:15 PM EDT (US)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

first u pick teutons
This is map
|----x-----|

|----x-----|

|----x-----|

|----x-----|

|----x-----|
x = town center
put 5 villagers in EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM
Put bombard cannons behind the tc's so when they put trebuchet u can go kick
their ass.

U CAN KILL ANYONE WITH THAT TRICK AND IT WORKS FOR ME !!!!!! BE VARY CAREFUL
OF FRENCH HORSE!!! they rush alot and have good percing armur.

BE CARDFUL!!

hope this helps

[This message has been edited by Lamer1 (edited 07-30-2000).]

Author Replies:

Hussar
Forum Member posted 08-02-00 00:38 AM EDT (US)    30 / 30
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

LOL! Looking at the topic the first idea in my mind was: this is a Greer post
again!

SiLent_SniPer
Forum Member posted 08-01-00 08:36 PM EDT (US)    29 / 30
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, at least we know he isn't Greer......
------------------------------------------------------------------------------


quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Know yourself, know your enemy. A hundred battles you fight, a hundred you
shall win
------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Sun Zi

GPA_Chooch709
Forum Member posted 08-01-00 03:34 PM EDT (US)    28 / 30
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

omg greer, seriosly, get over it...that wont work in the xpack with
halbierders and beter camels...goodbye 75 paladin strat. :P
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

AIM: Chooch709, ZONE: GPA_Chooch709
~Elite Sponge~ & ~GPA Leader~
My Awards Page
Spongers Anonymous



Greer
 posted 08-01-00 02:16 PM EDT (US)    27 / 30
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What an idiot. If you had massed 75 Frankish Paladins, any amount of tc's
couldn't stop them.

Black_Hordes
Forum Member posted 08-01-00 10:59 AM EDT (US)    26 / 30
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lamer1,What if I attack with 10 siege rams? since u did not mention about any
millitary units..

Stranger2Danger
Forum Member posted 08-01-00 04:58 AM EDT (US)    25 / 30
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

WOW, the best use for 25 villagers I have ever seen, Im sure this guy is
simply so good and inspiring to watch, he breathes life into this stale game,
oh and how he does it with such style and ettiquite, hes so smart, Mummy, why
isnt daddy like him? why? Mummy will I ever be like him? ever? I want to be
sucessful, please, can I have a brother like him? please?
Hes laughing at us, he wanted us to take it seriously and flame him, thats
what he wanted, hahaha how he didnt get it (well not much) C'mon Mr Lamer
man, keep em coming you genius, you might change AOK forever.

Well Im off to put 1500 points on my rating by playing matty 100 times, hell
never beat me if I use this. I mean hell out boom me, Kill me dead but hell
never have this part of the map, even with 200 Trebuchets he wont be able to
take this from me.

'on a trip'

S2D


------------------------------------------------------------------------------

EMAIL: Stranger2Danger
ICQ: 61262332
EMAIL: Michael@ttard.freeserve.co.uk
Life is like a box of chocolates...Sweet!

JamisonT
Forum Member posted 08-01-00 04:25 AM EDT (US)    24 / 30
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

lol this guy made it my day LMFAO

Tsar_IvanIV
Forum Member posted 08-01-00 03:59 AM EDT (US)    23 / 30
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Never tried that strategy,but i think it's a great plan against rookies like
me. lol! But i think is't no fun coz no ectual battles happen. i wish u
people invented some unbeatable tactik with Celts (my fav.)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------



CreamingSoda
Forum Member posted 07-31-00 09:45 PM EDT (US)    22 / 30
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

zzzzzzz...
The real unbeatable strategy. You will never lose! Play any civ vs the comp
on easiest. Then you can say you never lost a game

SiLent_SniPer
Forum Member posted 07-31-00 08:26 PM EDT (US)    21 / 30
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Oh please please.....please let me shoot him......pretty please??
Well, I'm the sniper remember?Shooting lamers is my job!

*Mmmmmmmm.......cookies......* *crunch crunch* (I have a weird feeling here
someone is watching me......*walks back to my rifle to check if lamer is
still there. Takes a look into the sniperscope(huh? what's that silvery piece
of iron sticking out the
window?..........*bang!*......................................(it is obvious
I have the syndrome)


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Know yourself, know your enemy. A hundred battles you fight, a hundred you
shall win
------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Sun Zi
[This message has been edited by SiLent_SniPer (edited 07-31-2000).]


IClan_Emporer
Forum Member posted 07-31-00 06:50 PM EDT (US)    20 / 30
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You know what, I'm starting to think he was serious from the fact that he
hasn't replied to the insurmountable amount of flames on this post.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Justin Cass, IClan_Emporer- IClan_Emporer@Hotmail.com
For downloads and original content, visit the AOE Archive at
http://aoearchive.cjb.net.
Get Paid For Writing Opinions on Games like AOK & More at
http://aoearchive.epinions.com

Captain_N
Forum Member posted 07-31-00 05:27 PM EDT (US)    19 / 30
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think this is Greer.  Or someone who thinks Greer is awesome.  I bet Greer
was someone else here who is faking, and is now Lamer1. I'm sick of posts
like these.

Sir Marf of Ans
Forum Member posted 07-31-00 12:59 PM EDT (US)    18 / 30
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In the words of Homer simpson
quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mmmmmm Coookie...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------



*sips 409* drat out of cleaning fluid. It's so great to be a sponge knight.
*Mr. Bigglesworth hacks hairball on oreothecookie* No no. We don't hack
hairballs on cookies, we eat them like this *nibbles on oreothecookie* Now
you try. *Hacks hairball on oreothecookie, then on lamer* Ugh, I give up on
this cat. Well, at least he hack one on lamer.
*note: This is what happens to a normal person when they have
Werethehe@#isthexpac!? syndrome*
--------------
~An Elite Sponge Paladin of the Teutonic Sponges~


oreothecookie
Forum Member posted 07-31-00 12:44 PM EDT (US)    17 / 30
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

well lamer i dont tink many peeps like u
so y dont we put an end to all this **** we play in the zone
my zone name is kan u take a guess its oreothecookie
so we play teutons vs teutons u use ur little unbeatable strat and ill use my
normal strat that i use in most games and lets see wat happens shall we
and sir marf of ans u can keep om eatin im here for the world to enjoy =)



------------------------------------------------------------------------------

TTFN
G'NIGHT
SLEEP TIGHT
DON"T LET YELLOW BEAR BITE

Beast52
Forum Member posted 07-31-00 11:39 AM EDT (US)    16 / 30
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

man thats funny... unbeatable? try it against a really good expert and see if
its unbeatable

Sir Marf of Ans
Forum Member posted 07-31-00 11:10 AM EDT (US)    15 / 30
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*takes another bite out of oreothecookie* Well John Carter of Mars, I just
couldn't stop myself from flaming him. Remember everyone, when playing poker
with french horses, be cardful! I thought that Greer was king of the Newbes,
I guess he's only a knight compared to this guy. *Mr. Bigglesworth hacks a
hairball on Lamer* No, no. We don't hack hairballs on newbes we flame them
Mr. Bigglesworth. I think the last time I used a TC for offence was when I
was a Goth, but then the computer just sent over a ton of trebs and just
wasted my town. So I guess this "Unbeatable strategy" is beatable after all.
*snickers then sips some 409*
---------------
~An Elite Sponge Paladin of the Teutonic Sponges!~

[This message has been edited by Sir Marf of Ans (edited 07-31-2000).]


SiLent_SniPer
Forum Member posted 07-31-00 10:36 AM EDT (US)    14 / 30
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

We shouldn't really ban the guy......I say we shoot him!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------


quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Know yourself, know your enemy. A hundred battles you fight, a hundred you
shall win
------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Sun Zi

go_2_mars
Forum Member posted 07-31-00 10:22 AM EDT (US)    13 / 30
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What are the rule\where can I find them?

Ace_Of_Empires
Forum Member posted 07-31-00 09:59 AM EDT (US)    12 / 30
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

LOL! this is just hilarious...

The Kyaia
Forum Member posted 07-31-00 05:27 AM EDT (US)    11 / 30
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I dont think he will be banned, he havent broke the rules yet, he is just a
bit annoying.
A newbie that has just got the game, it's nothing criminal.

John Carter of Mars
Forum Member posted 07-31-00 05:11 AM EDT (US)    10 / 30
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ROTFLMAO!!!! BTW Marf, I thought you never flamed anyone, not that this guy
didn't dserve it LoL  I play Teutons, but I never do any kind of TC pushing.
This guys handle is amazingly accurate
JCoM


azn_aok
Forum Member posted 07-31-00 02:48 AM EDT (US)    9 / 30
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

this guy has too be kidding....right, not even beginner would do
that....anyway where did this guy get all of this junk from??? even if you
did that to the comp you would still get beaten........lol

SiLent_SniPer
Forum Member posted 07-31-00 02:24 AM EDT (US)    8 / 30
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

AHHHHHHHHHH.......AHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAH
A.........HAHAHAHAHA.......*NONO* STOP IT**
HAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAHHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA.....*NO STOP IT!*
I......HAAAAAAHAHAHA.......CAN'T......STOP.....AHAHAHAHA...........
(In hospital right now for a busted lung and a bleeding throat)


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

know yourself, know your enemy. A hundred battles you fight, a hundred you
shall win
------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Sun Zi

Sir Marf of Ans
Forum Member posted 07-31-00 00:07 AM EDT (US)    7 / 30
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You have got to be kidding me. Using 5 TCs with 5 villagers? That's so lame
that Mr. Bigglesworth here fell asleep from this "strat". Here's my 5 reasons
why this "strat" doesn't work.
1.) No one want's to play against a TC pusher so the "strat" is useless, but
I'll continue on.
2.) In the xpac the TCs lose there range.
3.) If your going to be as lame as to do this strat, at least have the
deciency to put 10 archers in each one, not 5 villagers.
4.) 1 word, Trebs, bye bye TCs, and bombard towers range doesn't even come
close to a trebs.
5.) How in the he!! can anyone be cardful? Is it a trick that you do in
poker? Do the french horses or calvery were I come from know this trick in
poker? Is the casino boat awair of the french horses being cardful in there
casino?
*takes a bite out of oreothecookie, and sips 409* I hope you don't mind me
doing that oreothecookie, your just so tasty! Here Mr. Bigglesworth, have
some oreothecookie. *gives some to cat* Well, if you fellow formers have any
other flames to add on to this list just addem on.
---------------
~An Elite Sponge Paladin of the Teutonic Sponges!~


swp
Forum Member posted 07-30-00 11:54 PM EDT (US)    6 / 30
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

lol, Chooch. this "Lamer1" guy is like, flooding the General Discussion with
useless posts (e.g. a new kind of bombard tower, turks rule). god, if this
guy keeps on doing this, i swear hes gonna get banned.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

| .:: swp ::. |
| or u can just call me Steve =) |
| ICQ# 73209773 |
| Zone: GPA_Swp or _swp_xln_ |
| Webmaster of the GPA Clan |

GPA_Chooch709
Forum Member posted 07-30-00 11:36 PM EDT (US)    5 / 30
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

i seriously hope this is some kind of joke, however, i dont think it is...its
probably some angel or cherub messin with our heads...i hope...or its a greer
impersonator!!!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

AIM: Chooch709, ZONE: GPA_Chooch709
~Elite Sponge~ & ~GPA Leader~
My Awards Page
Spongers Anonymous

oreothecookie
Forum Member posted 07-30-00 11:29 PM EDT (US)    4 / 30
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

im a teuton player
but i never use the tc range to my advantage when im gettin attcked i try to
move some villies other i garrison and take advantage of the 2 attack
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

TTFN
G'NIGHT
SLEEP TIGHT
DON"T LET YELLOW BEAR BITE

piscapoe
Forum Member posted 07-30-00 11:28 PM EDT (US)    3 / 30
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Chooch, you missed some
This is map
so when they put trebuchets...
good percing
be cardful

Dont worry lamer,
I will be vary cardful when they put trebuchets. I will be more vary cardful
of french horse because they have a vary good percing armur.

It will help a lot.
tank U.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In order to be the Master, you must beat the Master. I am the Master, and
today ain't lookin' good for you!

GPA_Chooch709
Forum Member posted 07-30-00 10:44 PM EDT (US)    2 / 30
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

lol...who is this posting this stuff...its hilarious...

quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

armur
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BE VARY CAREFUL OF FRENCH HORSE!!!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------


ROFLMAO thats hilarious...


------------------------------------------------------------------------------

AIM: Chooch709, ZONE: GPA_Chooch709
~Elite Sponge~ & ~GPA Leader~
My Awards Page
Spongers Anonymous

WastelandSouja
Forum Member posted 07-30-00 09:21 PM EDT (US)    1 / 30
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

he he... the name is great (lamer) LOL! that seems to be a lot of people's
strats these days. Stupid TC lamers can't even build a military to win. If
you want to do this strat with castles or towers, DO IT. However, TC laming
must stop!

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Ode to Japan.(long,unorganized.)

Sir Isaiah
Forum Member posted 08-02-00 00:31 AM EDT (US)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ok,They do have slow resource gathering towards late castle,but that's ok in
my Opinion because I'm going to be useing cheap units like infantry anyway.To
counteract there slightly slower gold gathering I put more miners on the gold
then normal,it takes more food to do that,but..thats what boomings for.(and
fishing boats....)I can get really good Feudal times with the Japanese
because instead of wasteing time lureing BOar or walking vast distances from
the deer,I just build another mill,no skin off my nose.I love that,no
worrys,just build another Mill.Once in Feudal I get to castle really quick
because I made a couple goldminers in the dark age to get me that 200
gold.(Building that mineing camp wasn't a biggie either...).I begin to boat
boom in the transistion to Castle,then shortly after I castle most of my food
villies are out of things to hunt and bushes to forage,So,I build farms with
the wood I have left after the mini boat boom.THen once thae farms are up I
just boom like anyone eles whould.Now,why are the japs good besides getting
good castle times and boat booming.Because they have a cheap but effective
army.They have all the archers and archer techs.YOu defend your super
Archers,HC,Eskirms with Japanese super pikeman and a few ESamurai and
Champions,Light Cav get Seige sortie dutie.So they have an effective army
that is realtivly cheap compared to some Civs.Samurai are the only UU that
stand up to Tk's if the Samurai have at least a little support.Samurai are
also great against Beserks,Woad raiders and Cataphracts(They only beat Cats
if you take costs into mind.).So,what do you have:
-Quick Feudal/Castle times.(for me.)

-The only other Civ to get both Arbs and HC besides Byz.

-Pikeman beat even Frankish Paladins.(Please don't comment on this Greer.;.

-ESamurai can keep UU infantry from killing your champs.(which are defending
your Esamurai and Pikes from Other Champs.)

-Hmm,nothing eles that I can think of,if theres anything eles about the
Japanese that's great and I don't know it yet,Please tell me.

((I also love the Byz,but I can't use'em as effectivly as I use the Japs.))

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am what you'd call a Rennaisance man...

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Getting a fast castle Questions

Beast52
Forum Member posted 07-31-00 09:35 AM EDT (US)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I get to castle in about 16:30 to 17:30 with about 25 vills. Just wondering,
should I sacrifice some of my castle time for more vills?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Zone name Football_Beast
Author Replies:

uncleroggy
Forum Member posted 08-02-00 00:13 AM EDT (US)    8 / 8
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hey S2D!!
Good to see you too.

Right now I'd regard myself as a total rook. Haven't played a minute of AoK
in almost 3 months. Wish I could though, but trying to do the nuclear
Master's Degree really cuts into the time.

Seriously though, I've had a chance to lurk a bit and these new flushing
strats scare the toities out of me. Maybe I'll have to give up playing
saracens and go for Chinese or Brits.


Beast,

It all comes down to practice. It's easier to view recordings than to read
through a long post. You'll see how the tc's are queued and never idle.
You'll also see how and when the sheep, berries, boar and deer are taken.
Also, MP game lags can be minimized to a certain degree if you minimize
changes to villie orders and movement.

FYI, I thought a 20 min castle was the best this old geezer could pull off
when I first started. Then again, that was also when people would leave you
alone for the first 45 minutes.  Now, they'll hit you at 12.


Beast52
Forum Member posted 08-01-00 11:58 AM EDT (US)    7 / 8
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

haha, Yeah it's online so that might add about 30 seconds. Also, I just
started using this strategy, maybe about 5 times so, yeah, I probly could
work on it a bit and get the time down about a minute or so (the strategy
says to castle in about 15:20 with 27 vills).
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Zone name Football_Beast

Stranger2Danger
Forum Member posted 08-01-00 04:10 AM EDT (US)    6 / 8
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Uncleroggy kicks @$$! [lie]Low grade intermediate![/lie]
Hey rog, when ya gonna be back, were all missing you at ACOL!!

Oh and back to the topic, Providing you get there with enough food and a bit
of wood, youll be fine as long as you pay attention to your recource levels
and put new villies on the correct recource and dont put too many on gold
early in the boom or you wil suffer. It just takes practice dude.

And is that time online or not, online its way harder due to command lag, it
adds about 30 seconds onto my 17:00 29 vill usual

Good luck, read loads of articles, practice as much as possible. And when you
do practice, remember what you are trying to do and not just hope it works
out, which is what I end up doing, then It all goes horribly wrong

S2D


------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Zone: Stranger2Danger
ICQ99B#:61262332
Life is like a box of chocolates...Sweet!



uncleroggy
Forum Member posted 08-01-00 00:10 AM EDT (US)    5 / 8
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Beast,
1630 castling with the brits at 25 villies leaves a lot of room for incresing
efficiency.

I play Saracens and can castle with 27-28 villies at about 16 minutes. Also,
this castling usually has 300-400 food and enuff wood for 2-3 additional tc's
to start the boom.

Since the Brits have that nice sheep bonus and cheap tc's, I expect that you
can do a lot better than this.


Good Luck!

*Note*

I am not trying to toot my own horn as I consider myself a low grade
intermediate. However, I gave you the comparison so that you can see where
your inefficiencies lie. I can also email you a sample game if you send your
email addy to

uncleroggy@aol.com


Beast52
Forum Member posted 07-31-00 05:40 PM EDT (US)    4 / 8
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes, AFK_Tick, that is the Briton strategy I use that's made by the DevilZ
clan. It leaves me with just enough food and gold to get to the Castle Age
right after my 2 Feudal Age buildings are built. It doesnt leave me any
excess food to build any villagers or time to build them before I go to
castle, even though the strategy says "You should have enough food to queue 2
villagers and still have the 800 for castle age. If you are low on food,
build only 1 villager (you can be even faster)." but, for some reason, I
never have that extra 50-100 food. My question is, should I wait for it to
come in, then build the vills and go to Castle or just go to Castle with only
25?

AFK_Tick
Forum Member posted 07-31-00 03:04 PM EDT (US)    3 / 8
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Have you seen the Briton fast castle strategy made by the DevilZ clan? It's
over at mrfixitonline.com, and it's the usual opening you see from Briton
players. It's quite powerful...

Beast52
Forum Member posted 07-31-00 12:36 PM EDT (US)    2 / 8
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Oh, with that strategy I'm usually the Britons and do like to rush when I get
to castle. Also, yes, I feel like my Imperial time is a little slow...
depending on whether I forget to click the button lol
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Zone name Football_Beast

cnardone
Forum Member posted 07-31-00 12:32 PM EDT (US)    1 / 8
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That is a pretty open ended question. Where do you find yourself running into
problems? Do you like to rush right after getting to Castle Age? Do you feel
like your tiem to Imperial is too slow? any more info would be great.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

I thought i might make a post on a insight into the Flush....

Syther
Forum Member posted 08-01-00 05:00 AM EDT (US)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ok Ok I know there are people who have already wrote about the flush and I
too have seen post about it made before.I think having yesterday played
8feudal flushers all Chinese in rated games and stopping all but one who
lucky for him disconnected due to lag (he was losing anyway).
I think when you face a feudal rusher the common civs used for it are
Chinese,Britons,Goths as they are too weak In Castle and Imperial.(son't get
me wrong they have their advantages)
In a game you can realise a flusher by his score early on and get you're
scout cavalry to scout their base constantly to see if they are mining stone
early to get those towers.No i know a lot of people when they hit castle
forget about their scout cavalry and forget to explore with it to find those
forward bases or Resources poorly defended.
Me i go for the Britons Fast Castle and TownCenter push my way out of the
guard towers and forward attack.However a good flusher will try to hit you in
you're resources before you reach Castle as then he knows his attack damage
to you is weakened.
When you fight a feudal rusher you cannot think defensively as always all
truly good players even if A Castle is build by their base must think on the
attack as if you just site back and let him boom you're done for. The Great
thing about a early Castle is knights and rams use knights to defend you're
rams and attack you're enemy at his gold, wood and stone mines kill everyone
there.if they use spearmen bring in Crossbowmen and let the knights run oast
while the archers shield them and wipe them out.Use 1 or 2 knights 2 defend
you're rams while you attack towers close to you're town and send some rams
to his home town center acompanied by knights to take out his base and leave
him weak that means if he hasn't already castled his castled time will be
twice as long as a rooks castle time (doubled 35mins)If you can do all the
above and then encircle and mount for Imperial you will crush him
totally.While they're feudal the are weak and vulnerable unlike you who can
just place TownCenters up by you're resources and just defend them like
that.The chances are if the enemy haven't resigned y now they're up to
something still so keep you you're scout As soon as you find they're base
anything houses what ever crush them when you reach imperial get a castle
trebs if spies doesn't cost a lot and you've got spare gold research it then
mopp up the rest of you're enemy totally.
Zone Name:Slasher_Mantis leader of the Slasher clan
http://www.slasherclan.homestead.com/home.html
Author Replies:

ProvostB
Forum Member posted 08-01-00 11:51 PM EDT (US)    4 / 4
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

you can't really say if someone is flushing you if his score is low, because
they might be doing a fast castle.
also if they're mining stone in dark, i know a few players with that habit,
and they almost always don't flush.
btw you can go castle, then plop a few towers and do a half-flush, without
any damage to your castle time.

BTD_DEathTraP
Forum Member posted 08-01-00 11:41 PM EDT (US)    3 / 4
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OK Syther (so your into Pokemon huh?)

As you most likely know, I am in love with the flush, and occasionly use it,
along with a fast castle, or simply a tower rush attack. I have a question
about the Flushes that you so easily defeated.
1. What time did these flushers Feudel in?
2. What is your average "fast" castle time.
3. I would like to see how you hold up in a game vs. me, just to make sure
you aren't just some newbie making stuff up.
My zone name is:
_elitegamer_

My e-mail is:
Ace014@aol.com

Let me know soon please.



Brad4321
Forum Member posted 08-01-00 05:12 PM EDT (US)    2 / 4
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I agree with what you said but, Goths bonuses don't get into play intil
castle. And yes I know they recieve a bonus in feudal, but imo it doesn't do
into effect intill castle

Soviet Hero
 posted 08-01-00 07:16 AM EDT (US)    1 / 4
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Well at least I read this, now you know you didn't waste all that time typing
that.
But, yeah this is all well known, nothing new.

Hero

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Soon my fellow comrades will rise back to power and conquer what was meant to
be ours, the world! -Soviet Hero
Zone= _Alik_

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New strategy : the forush

LateRoger II
Forum Member posted 08-02-00 07:10 AM EDT (US)
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Hi,
This strategy is very good, try it,
especially against good players.

Often, good players try to get the best
economy (to get a maximum : food, gold, wood, stone).

To arrive to this result, they need time,
surely in DARK AGE.

What is the FORUSH ?
1/ Scout to know where is the nearest ennemy
2/ When you have 15 peasans and enough wood :
send 4 peasans near the ennemy forum
3/ Delete (destroy) YOUR FORUM !
4/ Construct a forum near your ennemy !
5/ RING THE BELL !!!

With the 11 others, you continue : get food, wood, (gold)
make buildings ...

LateRoger


Author Replies:

Thriller
Forum Member posted 08-02-00 05:33 PM EDT (US)    8 / 8
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Oh yes, 11 vills will surely do a gr8 job, especially if the enemy have 30 in
his base......

Captain_N
Forum Member posted 08-02-00 05:33 PM EDT (US)    7 / 8
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It's called a TOWN CENTER, Roger.

Tonto_BobDoleKnows
Forum Member posted 08-02-00 05:22 PM EDT (US)    6 / 8
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LOL iclan_emporer. Its kinda hard to tell now'days.....
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--
|ICQ: 68006372|
|Tonto Empire|
|Email:wijiwiji_2@yahoo.com|
|Zone Name: Tonto_BDK- Tonto Clan|
|Proud Spokesperson Of Viagra|

IClan_Emporer
Forum Member posted 08-02-00 05:10 PM EDT (US)    5 / 8
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What is this, a stupid forum joke?
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--
Justin Cass, IClan_Emporer- IClan_Emporer@Hotmail.com
For downloads and original content, visit the AOE Archive at
http://aoearchive.cjb.net.
Get Paid For Writing Opinions on Games like AOK & More at
http://aoearchive.epinions.com

Trouble_4_U
Forum Member posted 08-02-00 11:25 AM EDT (US)    4 / 8
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I totally agree with Wasteland. The wood and time wasted would be the death
of this strat. This might work on lesser players, but players like me would
eat u alive if u tried this on me. Even if you get your TC within range of
one of my resources, I would have the resources left to go build another LC
or MC somewhere away from the effected area. You beat rushes by
out-economying your enemy. Also, your town where u say u leave your 11
villagers has no TC. Sounds ripe for some villager kills to me.
Trouble_4_U


WastelandSouja
Forum Member posted 08-02-00 09:21 AM EDT (US)    3 / 8
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This strat has already been out for a while, its called DOUCHE I believe.
Anyways, against even average players, you're going to get beat using it. So
you destroy your tc? Then after you destroy it you have to walk to my side of
the map. Then you have to rebuild a tc. THEN, you restart on the 275 wood u
just wasted. Anyways, no tc means no vil production. no vil flow means no
econ. No econ means no feudal/castle/imp. To me, that is a certain death
strat.
And by the way, I radar house in dark and research town watch immediately in
feudal, so that strat just isn't going to work unless you're playing rooks.


LateRoger II
Forum Member posted 08-02-00 07:31 AM EDT (US)    2 / 8
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Yes

soup or man
Forum Member posted 08-02-00 07:24 AM EDT (US)    1 / 8
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wow, did you think of that all by yourself?

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my New strat the Cush!

DMS_WHO_ASKED_U
Forum Member posted 08-01-00 09:03 AM EDT (US)
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Hello, i have devolped a new stratagy that needs more devoloping  ( i haven't
named it yet)in this stratagy you can get up to 4 knights ( and sometimes one
of the attack upgrades)in under 17 min. (i am trying to get that time down,
but i can't yet)So this is what i did :
1. Pick Chinese or Saracens as ur civ.

2. build a vill,tell ur scout to go looking for your sheep and ur 1st boar,
tell 2 vills to build a house, then another 2 to build a diff. house, then
tell the last 2 vills to scout for your sheep, when you found your sheep tell
All your vills to go and eat it(Yummy!)! When your 1st vill is out of the
Queue, research Loom

3.After Loom is researched tell all your vills to drop their food to the TC
and put them back on Food, then build a villager, put the gathering point for
this vill by a boar, when he comes out tell build a vill, and tell the vill
that just came out to attack the boar 2 times then retreat to behind the TC,
when the Boar is near the TC tell 4 of ur shepards to drop their food of and
attack the boar, tell the one vill that went to get the boar to go for sheep.
(ur pop right now should be 8)

4.build 3 vills, tell the first one to build a granary by some berries (if
you can build by both berries and deer) and tell him/her to go hunting if
deer are close, if no deer are close then go forging for berries! then, tell
the second villager to go get the 2nd boar. After that tell the 3rd one to go
to Sheep or berries

5. Build 1 villager and put him on Berries (or deer if close to granary. . .)
Then Build 9 villagers and tell them to go to the Straggler trees. When you
get 100 wood tell them to build a Lumber Camp by a Forest

6. when you have enough go Fuedal (ur pop should stay the same)During this
time tell 4 of your berry pickers or Sheep men to go to wood, when you have
100 wood tell 4 people to go to a gold mine and build a mine camp.Then tell
one of ur wood villagers to build a house, then when he is done to go back to
wood.

7. when you hit fuedal tell 3 woodies to build a market and 2 woodies to
build a Blacksmith shop, then tell the two woodies that built the Blacksmith
shop to go to ur nearest Enemy (which i will cal your 'victom' from now on )
these two villagers will now be called your fwrds (short for FoWaRDS). when
your market is up tell them to go back to wood. then sale all of your Stone
and Wood and then buy food, when you have enough go Castle, when you hit the
castle button, wait till you have enough wood and build a barracks by ur
woodies. when that is up ur fwrds should be positioned behind ur 'victoms'
woodies and tell them to build a stable, if enough tell them to then build
another stable.

8. When you hit Castle, sale all of your wood and buys food, then build 1
Knight in each Stable. Tell one of your Berry pickers to build a farm. When
ur two knights are out build 2 more knights (if you have enough upgrade to
Forging) when you have 4 knights (this should be around 17-18 min) you go and
kill all of his woodies off, then go for goldies, then Stonies. . .) While
this is happening you should be getting your economy back on its feet by
building villagers to go to wood (about 4 vills) and then alot of vills to go
build Farms.Also, pump out as many Knights as you want, but don't forget to
build something to help then, after you have around 5-7 knights, upgrade to
x-bowmen and build some of those to protect ur knights from spearmen.

9. When you destroyed alot of his base and you need something to destroy his
TC build a Seige Workshop and try and pump out 2 rams.

I have tried this and it works pretty good, go and try it and tell me if YOU
have found any flaws that i haven't found and tell me. . . thanks and hope
you like it!


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
In the Words of yoda:
"Small brains some may have...Mmmmmmmmmmmmhhhhhhhh."
[This message has been edited by DMS_WHO_ASKED_U (edited 08-01-2000).]

Author Replies:

Doink
Forum Member posted 08-02-00 09:46 PM EDT (US)    11 / 11
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An early castle attack is like 17 minutes. You can get 4 knights in 16:30.
You better have lots or rams and knights if you are attacking at 20 min.


DMS_WHO_ASKED_U
Forum Member posted 08-02-00 10:32 AM EDT (US)    10 / 11
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BTD_DeathTrap-
I did not know about the Devilz Fast castle, but now i know and thank you for
telling me


JamisonT
Forum Member posted 08-02-00 06:14 AM EDT (US)    9 / 11
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well if you hit castle age that fast, they know what ur intention is.
most of ppl hit feudal at 11:25 with 24 villagers (except chinese)
if opponent hit castle that fast,i would probably stop making villagers and
pumping out pikeman and building towers near my TC and lumberjack right
away.then start some extra stones for more food to hit castle if needed.by
the time he rushes on me, i will be ready to counter but i would have economy
advantage with more villagers.
beside u can always predict by checking opponent's score.
more villagers= more points more army = lower points unless they kill.



BTD_DEathTraP
Forum Member posted 08-01-00 08:27 PM EDT (US)    8 / 11
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DMS_WHO_ASKED_U-
This is almost an EXACT copy of the fast castle strategy on MFO, created by
DevilZ. However, I think you may be ignorant, and did not know about the the
other one. I hope this is the case, because if not, you must give the DevilZ
clan proper credit.
Oh, and BTW, a fast castle strategy is aimed at a 15:40 Castle. A 20 minute
castle attack would be considered a MID to LATE castle attack.

DMS_WHO_ASKED_U
Forum Member posted 08-01-00 05:01 PM EDT (US)    7 / 11
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yes Jamison that is right,but an early castle attacks is around 20 min, this
is considered the 'get out of bed at 5 P.M. early castle attack'  you can
attack around 16:30 min with 4 knights and then bring reinforcements of 4-5
Archers at 17 min and upgrade them around 17:40, then come with the ram(s)
around 20 minutes to clean up the TC. [Point]but isn't their flaws in every
Stratagy?[/Point]  also, at aroung 18-19 minutes you can trade to buy wood to
build a TC by your woodies. . .
[This message has been edited by DMS_WHO_ASKED_U (edited 08-01-2000).]


JamisonT
Forum Member posted 08-01-00 04:53 PM EDT (US)    6 / 11
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this is just early castle rush.
it works sometiems and it wont work sometimes.
if opponent is good at scouting, it will be kinda hard to make forward base
with just 2 villagers without any supporting army.
dont make any armies till early castle?? if opponent just fuedal rush with
archers, u might lose lot of lumberjacks.


DMS_WHO_ASKED_U
Forum Member posted 08-01-00 04:17 PM EDT (US)    5 / 11
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O and this strat also works very well with the saracens (Since they have the
Market trade Bonus)

DMS_WHO_ASKED_U
Forum Member posted 08-01-00 03:46 PM EDT (US)    4 / 11
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ok ok disregard the 'ur popshould be. . ' thing  but that should be like
that. Also think you for telling my about that i really appreciate it
[This message has been edited by DMS_WHO_ASKED_U (edited 08-01-2000).]


BoE_Brasil
Forum Member posted 08-01-00 03:18 PM EDT (US)    3 / 11
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You could probably do that with 30 villagers 25 seconds later. Which would be
much better
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Brazil is spelled with "S" in portuguese!
[Also in Spanish!]

BoE_Brasil
Forum Member posted 08-01-00 03:16 PM EDT (US)    2 / 11
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You could probably do that with 30 villagers 25 seconds later. Which would be
much better
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Brazil is spelled with "S" in portuguese!
[Also in Spanish!]

Beast52
Forum Member posted 08-01-00 12:14 PM EDT (US)    1 / 11
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Well, I haven't tried it out yet, but plan to. I can first say though that
when you start out your pop is already 7 (you clearly stated that you also
meant with the scout included) with Chinks and you get pop 8 when you build
your first vill so you messed your strat up already there.
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Zone name Football_Beast

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A radical flush defense tactic

icewall
Forum Member posted 08-15-00 12:34 PM EDT (US)
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My friend (_Striker_nice) gave this a try the other day and it seemed to work
pretty well. He was getting a feudal archer rush from his opponent ( playing
Japanese civ). They were playing 1vs1 tiny arabia and he was Persians (as
usual). His opponent feudaled in around 10 and came at him with a strong
archer rush. After a bit of tower pushing and the usual squabbling that goes
with a flush, he said screw it, Im going to douche him. He packed up most
of his villies, deleted his TC and rebuilt in the town center of the other
guy, right between his TC and wood supply. He was actually in feudal so it
wasnt a douche but it seemed to work really well, the opponents econ was
thrown into complete disarray, his wood production was screwed and eventually
his TC fell (Persian double HP bonus you know). My friend had completely
abandoned his original base, his villies left there he had sent off in
different directions to rebuild gather sites in decenteralized locations
around the map. My friend managed to scrape up enough resources to castle and
he eventually overcame the other guy.
The whole idea for this strat came from a discussion that we had about
flushing. We were expressing our annoyance with flushers in 1on1 games, not
that we think that its underhanded or an unfair strat, we are just sick of
getting flushed all the time. The original idea was to just go for a flush
defense and then TC push in castle. _Striker_nice had tried this once before
and it worked pretty well too (the guy he did it too was p!ssed though, lol).
A little later he hit on the idea of a feudal douche to counter archer
flushing. We figured that the flush is just a feudal tower push, so why not
TC push the other guy back?

Personally, I never really cared for flushing myself because I consider it a
big risk against a good player. Mostly I see it as a way for intermediate
players to rack up quick wins against rookies on the zone for ratings. (Team
games are a different story, I have no problem with flushing there.)

The input I am looking for from yall 
Have you or others tried this strat before?
Do you think has a reasonable degree of success as a flush counter?
Is it useful to everyone or only the Persians (or Teuts or Brits)?
Do you think it is unsportsmanlike? (too much TC abuse)

Questions, comments and flames welcome.



------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
"There is no fortress that can resist a determined attacker."
{ICQ 68763059}
Zone name: icewall3

Author Replies:

Anti liberal
Forum Member posted 08-15-00 09:27 PM EDT (US)    4 / 4
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Great idea! I think i will be trying this a few times just to see the
reaction from the other person.

icewall
Forum Member posted 08-15-00 05:19 PM EDT (US)    3 / 4
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TOP
Too bad that I am competing with such stellar strategy posts as Tsar_Ivan's
"use villagers to mine gold" strategy and "SEND SEVERAL VILLAGES TO BUILD
FOWARD BASE." Slow down there Ivan, your giving away some real gems. People
are going to be able to compete with your mastery of the game.

Use...villagers...to mine gold. ahhhh, that is just profound on so many
levels....


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
"There is no fortress that can resist a determined attacker."
{ICQ 68763059}
Zone name: icewall3


GPA_Chooch709
Forum Member posted 08-15-00 01:14 PM EDT (US)    2 / 4
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if someone is about to kill u in feudal with archers and towers, there is no
prob with building a TC in his base...in the words of eminem "you wouldnt
want me to spray his brains all over teh place, that'll teach him not to let
me play whith it eh?"...or something to that effect...but yeah i think thats
fine if they are about to wipe u out...harder in teh xpack if you've sold
your stone to rebuild that tc in feudal...but maybe thats just me...good
strat...excellent idea!!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
AIM: Chooch709, ZONE: GPA_Chooch709
~Elite Sponge~ & ~GPA Leader~
My Awards Page
Spongers Anonymous
Sponges Recorded Games!


Captain_N
Forum Member posted 08-15-00 01:08 PM EDT (US)    1 / 4
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Well, now, I think this might work! He won't be looking at his home base,
most likely. It will be tough in the X-pack, though. I don't consider it TC
abuse, either, because Douche-ing is so risky. Speaking of abusing TC, what
do you think it'd called when all those rams are attacking a TC!? Abusing the
TC!!!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Member of the tonto clan.
The only thing funnier than a clown choking someone is a clown being choked.

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Little Known Strategies of Husbands and AoK

[ Next Page  ]
[ 1 2  ]

Winston
Forum Member posted 08-14-00 01:03 PM EDT (US)
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I figured I would take a little time and lay out the MOST important
strategies to playing AoK. TIME.
I am a Husband and a Father and playing AoK is a great release, however, try
and get time to play.

So.. some strats to do this.

1. Dont play til kid is asleep.
2. Dont play til you got your wife hooked on some chick flick on lifetime or
rented.
3. try and get your wife to play.
4. Tell you wife, "Its better than going out and getting drunk with the
boys". <-- warning will get into a fight.
5. Say you are working late and skip to a friends place or play at work
AFTERHOURS (Yes boss, I dont play during normal hours).
6. Convince her that going out with the girls a lot is good for her "mental"
health. This can backfire, she may not go out with the girls... but maybe
your best friend instead. See Jerry Springer shows.

Anyone Got any other ideas?

Winston.


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I know I can write on this computer screen somehow. Now to sign this
signature.
Author Replies:

Knight_Templar
Forum Member posted 08-15-00 07:45 PM EDT (US)    19 / 19
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When my wife was pregnant, an old chap at work asked me if I was taking any
time off. Of course, a couple weeks when she and the little one come home I
replied. He advised me to take the week off while they're still in hospital.
I thought he was mad ... But he was right! When they come home its hell for a
few months so Winston, enjoy that brief moment of peace, quiet and
uninterruptedness.
Oh and changing nappies is nothing, i know some guys who wont do it.

tonto_real congrats, I hope my marriage lasts close to that.


tonto_real
Forum Member posted 08-15-00 07:16 PM EDT (US)    18 / 19
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ROTFLMAO! Ya gotta love all these evil "strats".
Winston

Regarding going Imperial with AoK:TC, I ain't a sweatin' it. Having only
recently celebrated our 36th Wedding Anniversary by me playing the game and
her going to the Big Bingo at a Casino 75 miles away... and having already
tried the divorce strategy like twice over those years (which had nothing to
do with AoK) and finding it to be a "loser strat" for both... the divorce
thing just isn't going to happen again.

I agree with you that it's a capital idea to tell her, "I love you",
now-and-then and give her a smooch... just for like no other reason than you
do... women get so emotional when they feel the lack of that "personal
validation of worth". But the whole key to the thing is to really find
negotiable ways in which to accomodate the needs and wants of each other.
Then it becomes her CASTLE, too.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
tonto_real, Emperor by acclamation, TONTO EMPIRE
(What's "tonto" mean?);)

for yor "Knightly spurs" JOIN US! TONTO EMPIRE @
http://www.geocities.com/tonto_clan/enter.htm


Ash Plissken
Forum Member posted 08-15-00 06:44 PM EDT (US)    17 / 19
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NICE! Tonto_real mentioned Jack Of All Trades!
I do not yet have a wife and kids, but when I do, I hope this thread is still
in the archives for easy reference.


Winston
Forum Member posted 08-15-00 11:24 AM EDT (US)    16 / 19
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Nooooo. My wife is pregnant, it makes her "needy" side much worse. Dont think
on it... ahhhhhhhhh
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I know I can write on this computer screen somehow. Now to sign this
signature.

Lava_Hound
Forum Member posted 08-15-00 11:21 AM EDT (US)    15 / 19
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Here is another one that I didn't even realize until this topic. It is kinda
drastic though.
Get her pregnant, preferably by you. My wife has been tired almost every
night and just wants to go to bed at 9 pm, right when my 2 year old goes to
bed. Since I'm not tired yet, I say, "Oh, Honey, you should rest and take it
easy. I'll occupy myself somehow."  Down to the computer you go before the
light goes out in the bedroom.

I know, this is quite drastic and I don't suggest you get her pregnant just
so you can play AoK but, if you're going to do it anyway, it sure is nice!


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(Don't have a signature yet.)

Sleipnir2k
Forum Member posted 08-15-00 09:35 AM EDT (US)    14 / 19
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<sarcasm>just tell the wife and kids to "bugger off"</sarcasm>
of course... after having the "discussions" about computer usage and lack of
QT spent with my better half, i had to re-assess my priorities, on one side
was the thirst for power and glory by conquering random maps with faceless
opposition. the other side was occupied by a wonderful woman who will quite
possibly turn out to be my life mate, mother to my unborn children (and
occassionally me  ), who will provide love, companionship, support,
etc.etc....
of course i chose the woman.

Here is how I allocate time to play the game tho... so i can still get
thrashed on the zone.
1)Give up the remote
2)Wireless Headphones, if she can't hear the battle alarm, she thinks i'm
programming!
3)extra Phone Line
4)Invite HER freinds over whenever i see them (they'll wind up watching
Lifetime (or some other activity that requires no male input) for
hours_&_hours, leaving me to seek my own amuzement)
5)Bought her "Notting Hill" and "Runaway Bride"
6)go shopping on days when i used to watch sports (yes, AoK is better than
watching McGuire hit 2 homers against the Braves)

*it has also helped that she's started a new job the past 3 weeks that has
claimed a large portion of her time (now i get to play the abandoned one and
the only way i can fill my time waway from her is to play that *GASP* "d*mned
game!".)



*#6 could be in trouble when Football Season starts up full fledged.......
especially saturdays.....


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any digressions will result in penalties up to and including (but not limited
to) complete and utter disintegration of your weak, pathetic civilization

Winston
Forum Member posted 08-15-00 08:47 AM EDT (US)    13 / 19
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Wow, sweet post. I have some mods to your strat.
Dark Age: Always ALWAYS tell her you love her.
Fuedal Age: This is the time to say Everyone needs time to recharge.
Castle Age: This is the time to say, you need some "Space"
Imperial Age: Time to sign the divorce papers.


You know, I like AoK, but compared to MUDing, this is a light addiction. Try
spending 14 hours a day online for 9 months. THAT almost did me in lifewise
AND wifewise. Dang this is super addicting.


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I know I can write on this computer screen somehow. Now to sign this
signature.

tonto_real
Forum Member posted 08-15-00 04:22 AM EDT (US)    12 / 19
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Now, here is a definately AoK related Strategy. I call it
tonto_real's AoK Fast Family Castle Strat

In DARK

(Build your econ)

1. Setting before the comp one day with the Aok disk safely installed,
announce boldly, "Honey, the TV is all yours! Yep, that's right, from now on
it's ALL YOURS and you can watch anything you wanna watch anytime you wanna
watch it! Furthermore, any night you wanna go out to play Bingo with the
girls, well, that's OK with me, too!" [Give it up... cuz the only programs
you regularly mebbe don't forget to watch are when she's off playing Bingo,
anyway... hehe.]

2. "Honey, didn't you used to like playing Zelda or somthing way back when?"
"Well, yeah," she says... so hie off to the store and gets her a Play Station
and Zelda Something Or Other Of Time... hehe ... hook it up, plug it in and
away she goes.....

3. Marshall up your courage and advise ALL of your friends and family that if
they wanna get ahold of you...they MUST call BEFORE noon each day because
after that you HAVE to be online!!! No, no, no, no ifs and or buts... whose
paying your telepone bill, anyway, huh? (and don'tcha just know your mommy
LOVES that)

4. Join, or create, a clan so's you can get the latest 'poop from the group'.

Yay! Go Feudal!

In FEUDAL

(Ya knows ya gotta fend off the FLUSH!)

1. "But, I don't LIKE this Zelda!" (aarrRGH!) RUN to the store and buy her a
Nintendo64 and Mario Does Dallas Or Whatever It Is....whew! ***wipes sweat
from brow and flings it on the floor***

2. "But, you gotta spend SOME time with your grandkids while they are
visiting!" "Ah...err...uhh... c'mon over here kids and watch grandpa show you
how to grow-up to be a WINNER.... well... uh...some of the time, anyway."
***in a little, kids wander off to go outside and chase lizards or try to
catch Rocky Rooster*** Well, hey, lizards and Rocky Roosters are MUCH more
interesting than ol' grandpas anyway...

3. ***Ringggg-ringggg-ringgg*** "Yeah, mom, I'm sorry it has taken you days
to get ahold of me... but whaddya have so important to do in the mornings
that you can't remember to call then!" Oh boy.

4. "Huh, what did you say? Uh... just a minute, hon. I gotta answer this guy.
Well, it would be IMPOLITE to just leave him hangin' there!" "Humpf," says
she. A lil bit later, "BUT I'M IN A GAME!!! NOT NOW! (for Pete's sake)"
***mumble-mumble*** "In a minute........" (eeeuuuwW)

But.... get ready to go Castle NOW! (PUNCH that button!)

In CASTLE

1. She falls IN LOVE with Mario Whazzits Name. Har Har!

2. She goes to Bingo regularly twice a week and once in awhile hies off to
the Casino when she hits it big [what, quarterly?]... and the TV is only
'contested' for a half hour on a rainy Saturday night when I wanna watch Jack
Of All Trades. Yeah!

3. The kids come and go home always having had a great time... but, hey, kids
are cool like that anyway.

4. Mom, and brother, and one kid that doesn't play the game, and everyone
else have learned to deal with how it is.

5. She only frowns briefly at me once in awhile because she gets up early
while I have 'played late' and I'm not out there in the mornings weeding the
garden with her (I insist that they are her flowers) Not too shabby.

6. And, those pesky telephone salespersons rarely ever get thru to interrupt
dinner any more -- presuming that we DO break for dinner... but what are
frozen burritos and microwave ovens for anyway, huh?

7. Lastly, too, Sammie is now is now putting up Other News of the World
that's worth taking a look at directly onto one of the forums on our
clansite... so we don't even have to break to watch that!

The complete Ager.

Yes! A man's home can be his CASTLE... IF he's got the right game strategy!

(heh... been 'good to go' for going on 9 months now)
(goin' Imperial now... got AoK:TC on pre-order...hehe)



------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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tonto_real, Emperor by acclamation, TONTO EMPIRE
(What's "tonto" mean?);)

for yor "Knightly spurs" JOIN US! TONTO EMPIRE @
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[This message has been edited by tonto_real (edited 08-15-2000).]


Knight_Templar
Forum Member posted 08-15-00 02:59 AM EDT (US)    11 / 19
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"Honey, my pc's playing up. I have to go over to my mate's house and
re-install everything. It'll take most of the night."
Off you go to a lan night ...

Seriously you do have prioritise things a bit. I used to play almost very
night and it did nearly cost me my marriage (or my pc). Now I'm happy playing
just every second or third night and things are kool. And oh do some
housework without being asked, that helps


CreamingSoda
Forum Member posted 08-15-00 00:40 AM EDT (US)    10 / 19
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LOL. Back in the days when I was obsessed with this game, my better half did
storm into the computer room late one nite (I thought she was safely fast
asleep) & attack me & the comp hehe, shoes & books flying around everywhere.
Didn't make the headlines but got me to reassess my priorities. Funny thing
is I was more worried about her damaging the comp than me

BTD_DEathTraP
Forum Member posted 08-14-00 03:28 PM EDT (US)    9 / 19
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I can just see the headlines now:
MARRIAGE IS RUINED BY A PC GAME!

A marriage has been put in shambles after a wife brutally attacks her husband
for allegedly spending too much time with his computer game.....





Winston
Forum Member posted 08-14-00 03:20 PM EDT (US)    8 / 19
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Heh, I know somewhat of the thread.
There are several that talk a little about it, but what the heck.. its in the
vien of what my strats are all about.

I got my wife hooked on diablo, then diablo 2. I have a 800 mhz and a 600 mhz
computer now... weeeeeeee. plus my 333 linux firewall/server of course.

She was more excited about DSL because of the lack of LAG on her games she
plays. I can deal without internet but she loves to play some of her mud
buddies (yes, I will kill any who are mud lovers).

Its a blast, and so I play AoK, she is sitting next to me hacking at a Fallen
Shaman.


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I know I can write on this computer screen somehow. Now to sign this
signature.

AFK_Tick
Forum Member posted 08-14-00 03:11 PM EDT (US)    7 / 19
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There was a post on this waaaay back around last November, called "Counters
to the Wife Civ" or something similar. It was hilarious, and Sandyman even
dropped by to say that the post was the current favorite at Ensemble Studios.
Give it a search if you're interested. Hopefully they keep posts which are
that old...


Lava_Hound
Forum Member posted 08-14-00 03:08 PM EDT (US)    6 / 19
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Another great thread Winston! It's not exactly game related strategy but, you
gotta get computer time before you can apply/create game strategies.
I have tried all of your ideas. #3 worked great, I actually got her hooked.
This not only got me playing more but it got me another computer and another
phone line for the internet connection. Now she doesn't play as much so I
need to rely on the old strategies.

Here are a couple of my own.

1. I used to play Magic:the Gathering alot and spent too much time and money
(I have to admit myself now) on that game. As soon as AOK came out, I started
playing and stopped MtG. She loved it because of the money and the time. I
just redirected my need for competition and strategy to AOK. So, every once
in awhile, I remind her that "It's so much cheaper than playing MtG."

2. I always, enthusiastically, agree to watching the child on weekends if she
wants to go shopping or whatever with her girlfriends. My child is young
enough to take daily 2 hour naps - so I play during her naps.



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(Don't have a signature yet.)

Aphroqueen
Forum Member posted 08-14-00 02:48 PM EDT (US)    5 / 19
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I personally set it up like this:
- Put computer next to the couch, this allows me to reach over and hold her
hand from time to time. She digs that.

- When playing MP, I notify her so she knows I'm busy for the next hour. This
also comes at the price that the "little things" get back logged during that
hour, so I can never play two games in a row since I have to catch up between
games.

- Pay as much attention to here before any times I intend to play. This
smooths over the notification that I'm gonna hop on the computer.

- Pretend that the only TV I can watch is the History Channel. She hates this
and most times would rather me be on the computer than bugging her for 2
hours to watch the history channel.

- Constant Compliments. Yup, if I'm not playing, I complimenting and paying
attention to her. This buys my computer time.

Hope this helps anyone having "relationship problems" over AoK, or any game
for that matter.

Everyman
Forum Member posted 08-14-00 02:41 PM EDT (US)    4 / 19
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My general strategy is to stick to single player.
When my wife says "Can you help me with this?" I pause the game. When my wife
says "Don't you think it's time to go to bed?" I save the game.

I found a new justification for playing PC games. My nephew just bought
Starcraft 64 and has been waiting for a chance to challenge me. I'm new to
Starcraft so I've been diligently going through the missions on the PC
version of the game(I'm now on Protoss mission #3) in order to learn the
units and strategies. When my wife says "We hardly spend time together
anymore" I remind her that I'm doing this for our dear nephew. What a
sacrifice.


Dubanka
Forum Member posted 08-14-00 02:23 PM EDT (US)    3 / 19
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I have found a relatively simple tactic to maximize computers time, but there
is a sacrifice...
Turn over the remote control to the wife. Let the wife 'get used' to watching
whatever she wants (without your interference) and not having to compromise
on tv shows...This means that you have to watch TV 'by appointment only'
Sure she'll initially complain about you spending too much time on the
computer, but, step 1:
-It's better for my brain than watching TV
-Most tv programming sucks anyway.
Now that will grow stale after a while so then you have to get a little more
drastic...now for this portion to work, the wife has to be very accustomed to
watching tv without your 'interference'...and it involves a bit more of
sacrifice...Break your computer. Well not really but render it inoperable, or
so it malfunctions...loosen the vid card, the cpu or something. Now it's
going to take 'a week to ten days' for it to get fixed or for 'replacement
parts' to arrive (completely fictional if you want...i found out this tactic
cause my computer actually died on me and i had to rebuild it). It is
important that this time include a weekend. By the time the computer is back
up and running she'll be begging you to get back on it. She'll need some
'self time' after all that 'quality time'.

Kids would add a rough wrinkle in there, but as i am just now beginning to
adequately take care of myself, dont see any of them on the horizon
-Dubanka


Zero
Forum Member posted 08-14-00 01:47 PM EDT (US)    2 / 19
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Well i'm luckyer than you guys. I'm on summer break and my girlfriend is on
vacation. I can play all I want  But when she gets back I use these strats.
1. It's my computer
2. I still bring in a pay check every week
3. I make more money than you(be careful with this one)
4. I remind her how often she raids my wallet for shopping.
5. I buy her flowers(works every time  )


Of course these strats are not with out thier flaws. For example, I bring her
some flowers and give her some cash to go out with her friends, I go to sit
back and play a game of aok and I get this. " what do you think you are
doing, what about the dishes" And this is after I got home from work and she
had the day off. Ah women can't live with them...



Sarmis_Zeke
Forum Member posted 08-14-00 01:26 PM EDT (US)    1 / 19
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ROFL!!!!
All those "strats" look familiar. I think I've used them all except #5. Be
very careful when using #5 because if wife finds out you could get a real BIG
fight going on.
I'm in same boat. Wife & kid.

#7 Money. Barter for time. Trade game time for shopping spree. Similar to #6
except you use money or just trade some time where you watch the kid and Mom
can go do something she wants.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

The future of the Boom.

Aphroqueen
Forum Member posted 08-15-00 06:16 PM EDT (US)
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I've mentioned this in some of my other posts, but I really didnt get into
detail. So here it goes.
What kept a boomers econ safe in the past??? The Town Center and its
garrisonable force of villagers.

What keeps the boomers econ safe in the Xpac, definately not the town center
anymore, although a good array of walls and towers can.

But why is the TC so vulnerable? In the Xpac, ther now mobile building
killers. Before there was the ram. Slow and required escort troops and a
forward base to be used in attack after attack. Now in the Xpac, we have
faster rams and Petards. These two fairly fast units can be used with great
success to thin a boomers TC numbers.

Petards seem to do about 500-600 points of damage against TCs. This is
untested.

The tower center with only 2400 HP (Persian 4800 and Byz 3120) can be
completely destoyed by 5-7 petards, but this is not nessecary. Merely hit the
TC with enough petards to render it ungarrisonable. For most civs, this is 4
usually. After than any raiding melee troops can finish off the villies that
just spit out and the TC itself.

Any melee troop is good for escorting the Petards on the raid. A combination
of archers and melee works best. The archers are good for killing villies
while the melee concentrate on the TC and any responding melee troops,
especially cavs to kill your archers.

---------------

Order of Battle:

1- Put all troops on defensive stands to keep them from wondering off, but
can still react to threats.

2- Order your raiders to "move" to a location between the TC and largest
group of workers that could garrison the TC.

3- Order you petards (in spread formation) to attack the TC.

4- Order your distraction forces to attack so he cant micro the early
villager garrison causing you to lose unnessesary troops. (this is optional
depending on the number of villies and the number of petards you have
attacking.)

--Most TC will start firing at your raiding troops unless micro'd to attack
the Petards, this buys the petards alot of time. Once they hit home, the TC
arrow thread should be nullified for your raiding forces to clean up with.
Once the TC is done, withdraw, regroup, reinforce and hit the next TC.

-----------------

What does this mean. Well it means that in most games, getting to Imperial is
gonna have to be earned as booming will be harder to pull off since you
cannot TC spam the map.

This will also cause alot of Castle only games, so now all those Critical
Masse strats will no start taking the back seat to good old fashioned
tactical contests of wit and skill.

Forward bases are now vulnerable due to the petard and garrisonable rams.
From now on, I intend to wall up any forward build location, as well as build
it a ways back from the opponents base. This weakens my attack, but the first
rule of Sun Tsu is position yourself in such a way so you cannot lose. A lost
forward build could be a disaster. Against Good players, conservative
manuveurs will work better.

Defensive expanding will start to take shape. Players will now be forced to
leave units to defend his bases and expansions from petard raiding parties.
This means that a player who forward builds first might not have the
advantage. But a defensive player sending out raiding parties on the
attackers econ might be the better alternative. In effective, expansion wars
might break out. Each player trying to cripple the other's econ before really
locking antlers.

Players will become more cautious because making a move can leave you exposed
and that exposure can be taken advantage of at great cost to the expander.

All in all, the future of the boom is not dead, but setting up unprotected
TCs can definately cost you if you get over confident. TCs will start being
protected by walls and booming will be slowed as well. The Xpac has turned
the game into a fight at all stages of the game, not flushing and/or quick
Imperail with Castle booming.

Thank you ES.

Author Replies:

DDT_DriverX
Forum Member posted 08-15-00 07:38 PM EDT (US)    2 / 2
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Ya i agree. this is really going to make the Persians much more attractive of
a civ. with their double hit point tc's and faster working tc's they will be
very good at booming from limited tc's. also if a lot of games stay in castle
longer their lack of champs and arbs won't be as hindering.

no one at all
Forum Member posted 08-15-00 07:10 PM EDT (US)    1 / 2
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I can't wait! Man this sounds like it will be even more fun. It will be even
more of a thinking game, with more options and strategies than before.
WooHoo!

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When to research specific technologies?

BTD_DEathTraP
Forum Member posted 08-15-00 06:22 PM EDT (US)
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I would like to know which technologies you people research, and when. This
depends on the strategy that you use, and etc...I will give an example of one
of mine...
For Flushing-

Dark:
1. Loom (Whenever I do not have enough food, or I am hunting)

Feudel:

1. Double Bit Axe (gives me extra wood I will need)
2. Fletching and Padded Archer Armor (Upggrades archers and towers)
3. Wheelbarrow
THAT IS ALL THE TECHS I USUALLY RESEARCH IN FEUDEL!

Castle:
1. Wheelbarrow, Handcart.
2. Cartography
3. Crossbowman upgrade
4. Bow Saw
5. Horse Collar, Heavy Plow
6. Other Blacksmith upgrades.


My question for you all is what are the most strategic techs to get, and
when?? I would appreciate if someone would make a detailed list for: Fast
Castle, Booming, and other good strategies out there.


Author Replies:

ethiopian_boy
Forum Member posted 08-15-00 07:04 PM EDT (US)    1 / 1
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I get double axe when im castling and wheelbarrow whil im waiting for the
market and blacksmith to be built. occasionally i get cartography but it
depends on food and gold reserves. castle is boom time so i usually just imp
Does the thumb ring upgrade apply to towers and bbrd towers?

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Strategy Counter Quiz: What Will You Do Now?

Great Benze
Forum Member posted 08-14-00 10:13 PM EDT (US)
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Here is a good idea I thought up...
When your opponent makes a move, you must take advantage of it, or counter it
to win. (well I guess you don't ALWAYS have to take advantage of it but...)


So what would you do? Here is a quiz. See how well you would fare! I will not
post the answers yet, let's get a few posts! How well do you know your
strategys?


Easy:


A: )Your building up in dark, and you've just hit the Feudal button. All of a
sudden your opponent reaches Feudal! (let's say around 9:45 or so) What is
your opponent likely to be doing, and how should you counter it?


B: )Your opponent hits Feudal a little later than he usually does on a water
map. What strategy could you infer him to be doing? How could you take
advantage of this?


Medium:


C: )Your opponent reaches Castle at a incredible 14, yet his score is
absolutely terrible. What strategy MIGHT he just be doing? You have to
prepare quick. (BIG HINT: pretend your opponent's name is "The_Sheriff_")


D: )It's Imperial, and your scout sees gazillions of barracks outside your
base. What is he doing? This should be tough to counter, but how could you?


Hard:


E: )Suddenly in early Castle/late Feudal, three archers hit your goldmine.
What are they going for next? How many archers when they attack that? How do
you protect that resource? What are they likely to put up near your gold? How
will you prevent this? What civ are they using?


F: )Two things can be done here, therefore two answers. The first one you
can't tell if they will, but before long you will know. Your opponent reaches
a blazing Imperial. What should you expect? What is the main unit that they
will take advantage of that you can't counter easily? How should you counter
it then? (BIG HINT: ES loves to do the first)


Ok guys! Send in your guesses!



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|Rookies are our future! Be nice to them.
|ZN : Great_Benze
|I Play Shimo and RM.
|Visit my awards page!
|Intermediate at skill, rookie at heart.
[This message has been edited by Great Benze (edited 08-14-2000).]

Author Replies:

GPA_Chooch709
Forum Member posted 08-15-00 06:40 PM EDT (US)    12 / 12
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hmmmmmm no one liked my jokes...oh well, back to the drawing boards
::walks away arguing with stool over the answer to F::


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AIM: Chooch709, ZONE: GPA_Chooch709
~Elite Sponge~ & ~GPA Leader~
My Awards Page
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Sponges Recorded Games!


IClan_Emporer
Forum Member posted 08-15-00 05:54 PM EDT (US)    11 / 12
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Well, I believe that the answer to 'F' is either Hand Cannoneers, which is an
Imperial-only unit, or Paladins. The only units/buildings with no requisites
from the Castle Age, in the Imperial Age are:
Hand Cannoneers
Bombard Towers
Trebuchets
Bombard Cannons
Cannon Galleons

Of course, there are also powerful Imperial Upgrades such as:

Elite UUs
Paladins
Champs

So, I'd assume that the first answer (Is it 2 questions?) is making a Wonder,
if Standard Victory. Perhaps they'll upgrade to Pals and mass them, if
Conquest.

Basically, if you want a unit to mass, I'll assume Hand Cannoneers, since
it's in a way hard to counter, I suppose.

I'd counter with Elite Skirmishers, Crossbowmen, Cho Ku Nus, Cavalry Archers,
Mangudai, Janissaries, or Longbowmen.




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Justin Cass, IClan_Emporer, IClan_Emporer@Hotmail.com
For downloads and original content, visit the Age of Empires Archive.
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Wizard
Forum Member posted 08-15-00 04:31 PM EDT (US)    10 / 12
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heh 100% eh?? hehe i get an award or something lol =)

GPA_Chooch709
Forum Member posted 08-15-00 01:27 PM EDT (US)    9 / 12
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top...sum 1 read my funny post...
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AIM: Chooch709, ZONE: GPA_Chooch709
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Sponges Recorded Games!


GPA_Chooch709
Forum Member posted 08-15-00 12:59 PM EDT (US)    8 / 12
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Easy:

A: )Your building up in dark, and you've just hit the Feudal button. All of a
sudden your opponent reaches Feudal! (let's say around 9:45 or so) What is
your opponent likely to be doing, and how should you counter it?

Answer: Start typing to him calling him a cheater cuz he used trainers...no
once can feudal in 9:45!! that impossible, then abruptly leave the game and
ZM him with swears until he blocks you...that'll teach him to feudal early...


B: )Your opponent hits Feudal a little later than he usually does on a water
map. What strategy could you infer him to be doing? How could you take
advantage of this?

Answer: Geez hes probably gushing...that means i should build walls around my
whole island that way he cant land on my island and attack me...and this way,
i'll have turtled enough that he'll never get me!!! MUAHAHAHA!!

Medium:


C: )Your opponent reaches Castle at a incredible 14, yet his score is
absolutely terrible. What strategy MIGHT he just be doing? You have to
prepare quick. (BIG HINT: pretend your opponent's name is "The_Sheriff_")

Answer: hmmmmm hes probably smushing, so i would counter smush him and
convert all of his priests...then i would raid his town with villies to take
out his tc...


D: )It's Imperial, and your scout sees gazillions of barracks outside your
base. What is he doing? This should be tough to counter, but how could you?

Answer:most likely hes going to attack with lots of spearmen and
militia...this often happens when u dont scout enuf...u start talking to him
and say u gg and that he should resign...if he doesnt resort back to strategy
A and swear at him and call him a cheater, but whatever you do, distract him
so he doesnt attack u....


Hard:


E: )Suddenly in early Castle/late Feudal, three archers hit your goldmine.
What are they going for next? How many archers when they attack that? How do
you protect that resource? What are they likely to put up near your gold? How
will you prevent this? What civ are they using?

Answer: well you see, thats when u get really scared and you have two
options...1:you can garrison you villies in your TC and take out then pesky
archer guyz, or you can run like mad, into the wind, and reside in your
allies base, strip mine is, get ****ed at him for elling at you cuz u strip
mined it, send onagers to attack ground on his TC, then resign, loosing the
game for both of you...oh year, and dont forget to ZM everyone with
swears...lots of them...can never get enuf swears after a game...


F: )Two things can be done here, therefore two answers. The first one you
can't tell if they will, but before long you will know. Your opponent reaches
a blazing Imperial. What should you expect? What is the main unit that they
will take advantage of that you can't counter easily? How should you counter
it then? (BIG HINT: ES loves to do the first)

Answer: if they hit a fast imperial that means walls walls and more
walls...then you put up palisades when u run outta stone building walls...oh
and dont forget to fortify them walls...then if u wanna be extra sneaky u can
build bombard towers...the only thing that can take those out is trebs...and
no one builds trebs in imperial age...once again, if u r going to be beaten,
u swear and hit tuants until u die...and dont forget to ZM them always...OH
AND NEVER RESIGN...EVEN IF THERE IS NOTHING LEFT...THAT MAKES U A LOOSER!!!

roflmao...i kill myself...





------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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AIM: Chooch709, ZONE: GPA_Chooch709
~Elite Sponge~ & ~GPA Leader~
My Awards Page
Spongers Anonymous
Sponges Recorded Games!


Great Benze
Forum Member posted 08-15-00 10:03 AM EDT (US)    7 / 12
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I'll give you a hint to the second half of F: it is posted at MFO in a well
known guide.

Congratualations to Wizard! 100% correct!


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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|Rookies are our future! Be nice to them.
|ZN : Great_Benze
|I Play Shimo and RM.
|Visit my awards page!
|Intermediate at skill, rookie at heart.

IV1066
Forum Member posted 08-15-00 09:09 AM EDT (US)    6 / 12
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Wall... alll of the questions have been answered except F. The Wonder half is
obvious, ehhh maybe the other thing they'd try is to hit early with
trebs/pikes/archers while you dally about in castle? Well I know they'd have
trebs, and if you don't, ah, well, I do hate when that happens. I'd build
L.cav to counter it, they work surprisingly well if you launch a diversion on
the other side of the trebs, unless there's a lot of archers. If they have
lots of archers, trebs, and pikes, and you don't have enough castle to slow
'em down and get imperial, you lost.
So I guess you counter by getting Imp and building archers/ lcav. (Maybe
massing TC's everywhere would work, but I don't want to suggest doing such a
difficult strat )

[This message has been edited by IV1066 (edited 08-15-2000).]


agrajag
Forum Member posted 08-15-00 04:33 AM EDT (US)    5 / 12
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What's a 'SMUSH'?

Wizard
Forum Member posted 08-15-00 02:58 AM EDT (US)    4 / 12
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Easy:

A: )hes is flushing and you should hit the feudal button right away if u
havent already and start mining stone put up some archery ranges for skirms
tower up and wall so he has to go nby ure tc to get to ure res.


B: )well if he hits feud late then hes prolly boat booming big which a couple
galleys would take care of


Medium:


C: )well he is obviously SMUSHing he is prolly sarcs and u can counter with
towers or so ive heard.....


D: )he is champ floodinbg and the only way i could see to counter would be
heavy scorps pals.....

Hard:


E: )they are prolly fast castle attacking u (devilz strat) and they will
prolly be britons and pout a tc up near ure gold... they will prolly havve 5
or so archers tyhen addd some kngith mojnks and rams u can tower or try and
use spears and skirmsthey wiull prollly hit wood next...

F: )hmmm the only thign i could think of is if they asre prolly byz.. prolly
a wonder right away





christbearer777
Forum Member posted 08-15-00 02:14 AM EDT (US)    3 / 12
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_Andy, lol
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But they that wait upon the Lord, they shall mount up with wings as eagles,
they shall run and not be weary, they shall walk and not faint. Isaiah 40:31
no Jesus, no peace KNOW JESUS, KNOW PEACE.
ICQ# 26053233
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Tonto_Andy
Forum Member posted 08-15-00 00:39 AM EDT (US)    2 / 12
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A) Your opponent is flushing. You should counter by running to his base with
all your vills and attacking the TC.
B) Your opponent is gushing. You should counter by running to his base (use a
tranny) with all your vills and attacking the TC.

C)Your opponent is smushing. You should counter by running to his base with
all your vills and attacking the TC.

D)Your opponent is champ flooding. You should counter by running to his base
with all your vills and attacking the TC.

E)Your opponent is resource equalising or flushing. You should counter by
running to his base with all your vills and attacking the TC.

F) Eh, champ flood? You should counter by running to his base with all your
vills and attacking the TC.


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Freshly Reincarnated!

christbearer777
Forum Member posted 08-15-00 00:39 AM EDT (US)    1 / 12
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Easy:
1. He is gonna flush if he feudals that quickly. You can counter, by hitting
the feudal button ASAP and be wary of forward vills.
2. He could be going for a Fast Castle. You could Gush him. Or do a Galley
rush.
Medium:
1. Fast Castle Attack.
2. Champ Flood you. There is really no counter, but to build more champs. or
to mass Arabalests

Hard:
1. Gold, then wood. then food and stone. Build several skirmies to kill the
archers. Build a TC to defend the gold mine. If still in feudal, build a
tower.
2. He is going for a wonder victory. I dont' quite understand your second
question.


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But they that wait upon the Lord, they shall mount up with wings as eagles,
they shall run and not be weary, they shall walk and not faint. Isaiah 40:31
no Jesus, no peace KNOW JESUS, KNOW PEACE.
ICQ# 26053233
Zone- Tonto_Isbla
Heat.net- Isbla

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Little Known Strategies of the Greats. #10

Winston
Forum Member posted 08-15-00 12:08 PM EDT (US)
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For other LKSG in series, just do a search in this forum for Winston and you
get em all plus a few more gems.
Disclaimer: Standard one already mentioned in previous part of series.
Previously on LKSG:
Flanking
Cloning
Macros
Fear
Building(TC) defence.
Deer Herding.
Offensive Walling.
The Mobile Base
Critical Mass and ANTI Mass.
and now.
The Wonder of it All.

Okay, strange name.. it is used for a specific attack that I have used a time
or two that really freaks the opponents out. This is mainly a TEAM strategy
in general and is used by great TEAMS.

Basically, you are on a team that is a little in trouble. Well, you may be
doing well but your team will lose if the pressure is not dropped off your
teamates. This is where the special Wonder strategy comes into play.

Build a Wonder. Okay, yea sure it takes a while to build.. that is not the
point. You build a wonder, and defend it.. but NOT too hard. Instead you
collect an offensive army and get ready to blast through your enemy.

The first thing that happens is your opponents stop what they are doing and
go and attack your wonder. DUH, this totally weakens them. It takes all the
pressure off your teamates and onto you sure.. so? they are totally EXPOSED.

Really good teams may reconize this, expecially since I now tell it, but they
will come with power at your Wonder. Your teamates are rebuilding, and you
now SMACK them at thier economy. Hit them hard... who cares if your wonder
gets destroyed. Do put up a good SHOW of a defense so they dont get wise to
your LARGE column of troops killing you...

Wait.. there is a SUB strat here. This is probably more useful to you.
MULTIPLE attacks on multiple fronts... they are attacking your wonder, you
attack thier base. They think the alerts are for them attacking you, TOTALLY
missing thier base being killing. I use this constantly, I time my attacks,
or defense with an attack and they NEVER see the attack.

Boom, they destroy your wonder, you destroy thier econ, your team is now
stronger and in a better position. So, Its the Wonder of it all.



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I know I can write on this computer screen somehow. Now to sign this
signature.
Author Replies:

IClan_Emporer
Forum Member posted 08-15-00 06:12 PM EDT (US)    5 / 5
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Ah, very informative post. It would be interesting to actually WIN with the
wonder!



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Justin Cass, IClan_Emporer, IClan_Emporer@Hotmail.com
For downloads and original content, visit the Age of Empires Archive.
Get Paid For Writing Opinions on Games like AOK & More at Epinions.

Winston
Forum Member posted 08-15-00 02:34 PM EDT (US)    4 / 5
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A note, yes it is nice to defend.. but consider team games when you will have
a ton of people HIT you at once. Your teamates are in trouble, maybe you are
not yet in deep dookey. AoK is offensive and a half dozen trebs and some rams
will make your defense kinda weak.
Standard game. Much more fun to play.



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I know I can write on this computer screen somehow. Now to sign this
signature.

Captain_N
Forum Member posted 08-15-00 12:46 PM EDT (US)    3 / 5
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Hey, Winston, send these into the Blacksmith. Y'know, like that road to
expert series. Send them all in so the people who don't read forums can find
them. Good strat.

Zero
Forum Member posted 08-15-00 12:36 PM EDT (US)    2 / 5
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Good post winston! But this would of course only work on normal victory...
But I was wondering, wouldn't it be better to just have all your team members
rally at your wonder to defend it? If proplery defended they are a pain to
destroy And by having all of your combined forces defending it you should be
able to hold it. With b towers, scorps,cav, archers, infantry, ongers, tc's
and walls? Of course you could easily have 1 team mate attack thier home
bases to either destroy thier econ or draw away the enemy from the
wonder(this would be on 4v4). Plus when the heat is on the wonder they can
build up while they send troops to help hold the wonder...

Thriller
Forum Member posted 08-15-00 12:35 PM EDT (US)    1 / 5
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Wow, cool strategy, keep up the good work!

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Hunting / Gathering Strategy Questions

Tristan Drake
Forum Member posted 08-15-00 09:50 AM EDT (US)
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In the course of a game, I tend to build one mill between the castle and the
towncenter to stack farms around both, as well as a mill next to the berries.
I always round up the sheep, but I've never really hunted. In the Feudal age
before hopping on the berries with all my sheepherders, what would be the
best way to lure boar and deer nearer to the mill? Obviously the boar chases
you when you attack, but I usually end up losing that peon to the boar. I
have my castle age time down to 15:40. I'm thinking I could actualy tie the
computer if I had the right hunting strategy down.
Is it worth hunting on in to the castle age as well?


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-Tristan Drake
Leader of Blind Peons

Author Replies:

Tristan Drake
Forum Member posted 08-15-00 06:03 PM EDT (US)    6 / 6
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Aphroqueen,
Hehe, Nonetheless... I can do it in less than 16:00. By the time research is
complete though, I still have roughly less than 200 of each resources to work
with. I tend to not create enough peons early on. Thus, the question of the
number of peons =).

Thanks,

Tristan


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-Tristan Drake
Leader of Blind Peons


Aphroqueen
Forum Member posted 08-15-00 04:25 PM EDT (US)    5 / 6
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Tristan, I'm not trying to flame here...but if you are getting a 15:40 castle
more often then not, why are you here asking us aokh forumers for help on
early food gathering. With a 15:40 castle, we should be asking you for help.
???


AFK_Tick
Forum Member posted 08-15-00 04:05 PM EDT (US)    4 / 6
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For the number of peons, it varies by strategy.
Flush: I don't castle for a long time, but at Feudal I have 22.
Boom: 29 to feudal, 31 to castle.
Boat Boom: I don't know - about 28 plus about 12 boats maybe.



BlakNite_JNK
Forum Member posted 08-15-00 01:32 PM EDT (US)    3 / 6
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Usually around 30, if I wasn't flushing, 24, if the other goes early feudal
(happens all the time...)
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"Diplomats are just as essential to starting a war as Soldiers are for
finishing it. You take Diplomacy out of a war and the thing would fall flat
in a week"
Zone Name: _Steel_Dagger_, BlakNite_JNK



Tristan Drake
Forum Member posted 08-15-00 12:25 PM EDT (US)    2 / 6
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Thank you very much. On Average, how many peons do you have before hitting
the Castle Age?
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-Tristan Drake
Leader of Blind Peons


AFK_Tick
Forum Member posted 08-15-00 10:26 AM EDT (US)    1 / 6
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It's very much worth hunting boars, and usually worth hunting deer in dark
and feudal. In castle, I never bother, since I'm doing other things.
To lure a boar, you really should loom first. It's pretty easy to do without
looming on single player, but in multiplayer, the lag makes you lose a
villager pretty often if he isn't loomed.

What you do is this:

Have one villlager shoot a boar twice.
Send the villager back to the town center. The boar will follow.
When he gets near the town center, have all your sheep carvers drop their
sheep meat off at the TC, then attack the boar with them.
Have the luring villager garrison in the TC so he doesn't die.
Once the boar is dead, have the luring villager eat the rest of the sheep
carcasses.

If you work on it a bit, you can time it so that the boar gets killed in the
town center sheep area, which means that the villagers don't have to do any
walking to drop off the boar meat.

To do a feudal rush, you pretty much have to be able to lure boars in order
to get food quickly enough.

As for hunting deer, send 4 villagers for a deer so that they take all the
meat in one trip. Build a mill after killing the first deer. I can't remember
the number of deer which make a mill worth it, but I only do it if I see 4
deer. If you can place the deer mill near some shore fish, do that.

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Cetls' rush?

Tsar_IvanIV
Forum Member posted 08-01-00 04:35 AM EDT (US)
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Can anybody tell me how many villagers is enough for celts in the end of the
dark age to generate a good army of celts' fast infantry to attack in the
feudal, and how to do it best? Coz when i start building soldiers i get short
on villagers and can't progress ...when i try to make more villagers i dont
have the food to train infantry and even myself can get rushed.So whats the
ballance...???
Author Replies:

Captain_N
Forum Member posted 08-15-00 03:26 PM EDT (US)    5 / 5
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Look close. This post was made BEFORE most of his other ones. See?
I don't play Celts much, so I don't now, but 28-30 sounds about right.


BlakNite_JNK
Forum Member posted 08-15-00 01:49 PM EDT (US)    4 / 5
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Captain_N
Duude, what are you doing?... don't remind him of the dark side! He might get
tempted again....
*Ahem* Like I was saying Tsar, good post-question.
People are actually responding normally to his question. That's good. Btw,
I'd go for 28-30 for castle, or a boat boom since they have good wood bonus.
Im not a celts player, so I don't really know the exact numbers. Can anyone
help him out?


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"Diplomats are just as essential to starting a war as Soldiers are for
finishing it. You take Diplomacy out of a war and the thing would fall flat
in a week"
Zone Name: _Steel_Dagger_, BlakNite_JNK


[This message has been edited by BlakNite_JNK (edited 08-15-2000).]


Captain_N
Forum Member posted 08-15-00 01:03 PM EDT (US)    3 / 5
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Wow. Tsar, what have you become? This post was actually not all that bad.
Please, Tsar, I'm begging you, just go back to posts like this. What made you
join to dark side and start flooding with nonsense?
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Member of the tonto clan.
The only thing funnier than a clown choking someone is a clown being choked.


Aphroqueen
Forum Member posted 08-01-00 01:01 PM EDT (US)    2 / 5
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Dont try to have an army of anything but spearmen and archers in fuedal. Use
the food to propel yourself into castle and imperial. If its great infantry
you're after, get to imperial and get the Elite Woad Warrior. Woadies are the
most versitile infantry unit in the game. They can go toe-toe with any other
infantry in the game, and usually win, but they have the speed of cavalry
(not really but it's close enough).
Another reason to get to Castle is you get the celtic seige. This is where
your bonuses really take effect.

Celts arent a very strong fuedal civ because their econ bonuses arent very
strong. Instead defend in fuedal (no more than nessesary), then get to and
attack in castle and imperial, where building Infantry and Seige can happen.


Soviet Hero
 posted 08-01-00 07:11 AM EDT (US)    1 / 5
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 www.Mrfixitonline.com good for beginers. Hope that helped.
Hero

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Nice strat#3

Tsar_IvanIV
Forum Member posted 08-15-00 12:44 PM EDT (US)
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...let ur villagers mine some gold...


[img] http://gallery.yimg.com/c/256wm/11024117.jpg[/img ]


Author Replies:

Captain_N
Forum Member posted 08-15-00 03:13 PM EDT (US)    9 / 9
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I don't mine Dark Gold, I just wondered who did. I too send 2 people over
during the Feudal Transition. If I have enough wood, I also make a stone camp
during Feudal with 2 stone miners. I send 2 vills over when I reach Feudal,
for a total of four, unless I don't have enough food.
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Member of the tonto clan.
The only thing funnier than a clown choking someone is a clown being choked.


Tonto_Isbla
Forum Member posted 08-15-00 02:56 PM EDT (US)    8 / 9
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I mine gold in dark, only cause with the Mongols they are a bit more gold
reliant. ANd I like to do a 20 min castle, and be able to have an attack of
Mangudai/rams
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But they that wait upon the Lord, shall mount up with wings as Eagles, they
shall run and not be weary, they shall walk and not faint.
Isaiah 40:31

Imperialus
Forum Member posted 08-15-00 02:46 PM EDT (US)    7 / 9
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I get stone in feudal, like 10 seconds after I advance, I get 2 people over
there on stone, and I add a few more after my berry-pickers are done. This
seems to get me enough stone for a castle, but I'm wondering if thats too
early? Maybe someone can help a bit.

GPA_Chooch709
Forum Member posted 08-15-00 01:48 PM EDT (US)    6 / 9
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i say stone in the feud/castle transition...i always seem to barely have enuf
when i m ready for a castle...i could use some info on when u guyz get
stone...anyone??
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AIM: Chooch709, ZONE: GPA_Chooch709
~Elite Sponge~ & ~GPA Leader~
My Awards Page
Spongers Anonymous
Sponges Recorded Games!


BlakNite_JNK
Forum Member posted 08-15-00 01:39 PM EDT (US)    5 / 9
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I don't gold mine in dark, only during the feudal transition. Once I have a
descent amount of wood for the mine and a building (like 300, I can get the
rest later on), I send 4 villies on gold. Usually, I get just enough once
both my castle-transition buildings are up.
As for the stone, I mine them only when im saracens(obvious reasons). Other
civs sell them for at most 70g, not worth it.

Just a question, when do you guys start minning stone for building the
castle? and how many. I sometimes se people mine stone like crazy during
feudal. Is this a good idea? Need your opinion guys.


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"Diplomats are just as essential to starting a war as Soldiers are for
finishing it. You take Diplomacy out of a war and the thing would fall flat
in a week"
Zone Name: _Steel_Dagger_, BlakNite_JNK



GPA_Chooch709
Forum Member posted 08-15-00 01:05 PM EDT (US)    4 / 9
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thanks N for making this a decent post...i too like to get at least 2 gold
miners in dark and 2 more in feudal (from wood usually) cuz you will need
that gold come castle...i usually get a little more gold if i am going for a
flush naturally...i support dark age gold mining?? anyone else have thoughts
on this??
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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AIM: Chooch709, ZONE: GPA_Chooch709
~Elite Sponge~ & ~GPA Leader~
My Awards Page
Spongers Anonymous
Sponges Recorded Games!


Captain_N
Forum Member posted 08-15-00 12:59 PM EDT (US)    3 / 9
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Well, now, this could turn out to be a good discussion on gold mining. Say,
how many of you people like to mine gold in the Dark Age. I usually only have
enough goldies in Feudal to get me to Castle. Is this bad? Because I pump out
more goldies when I hit Castle, and some stone miners too, so I have enough
for my forward army, usually. Some people say that mining in the Dark Age is
good. What're your thoughts on this? Secondly, do you prefer your trade carts
to travel farther and make you more gold, or to travel shorter and make you
safe gold? While we are on the topic of gold, about how many villagers do you
usually have mining gold in Castle Age? And one more question. Is it wise to
sell your stone for gold, and if so, does this mean you don't need any gold
miners in the Feudal Age, because defenseive units cost only wood and food?
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Member of the tonto clan.
The only thing funnier than a clown choking someone is a clown being choked.


Tsar_IvanIV
Forum Member posted 08-15-00 12:49 PM EDT (US)    2 / 9
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to see the pic click"reply" than "go back"

Tsar_IvanIV
Forum Member posted 08-15-00 12:45 PM EDT (US)    1 / 9
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HELP, I'm in a RUSH!

Happy_Z
Forum Member posted 08-02-00 03:14 AM EDT (US)
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I'm not gonna try and hide it, I have been rushed, and died horribly, i have
also tried to rush and died horribly. I need to learn how to rush and defend
against rushes.
Could anyone who thinks they can help me with my rush problems please reply,
to:
1)Being rushed

2)Rushing

I want to learn all the different rushes out there, so if you only kno how to
do one rush, please tell me, i need all the help i can get!
-H@ppy~Z


Author Replies:

GriffinKnight
Forum Member posted 08-15-00 02:09 PM EDT (US)    8 / 8
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1. Get to feudal with 28-30 vills.
2. Build towers around your gold miners and wood cutters.
3. palisade off where you can to give your self some time, and force him to
attack were you want him to.
4. build skirmishers.
5. when you hit castle do not let him surround you with his forward base.
6. biuld some TCs away from where he is attacking you and boom big.
7. send men to harrase his vills

ProDigY
Forum Member posted 08-15-00 01:39 PM EDT (US)    7 / 8
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RUSHING 101
grab a buch of soldiers tape em' together send them into the battlefield,lock
the gate behind them and hope they return in one peice

DEFENDING 101

Pray walls and towers hold up long enough for you to haul @$$ to an allies
base.What? no allies? find an empty corner wall yourself in and repeat.

WEENIE TACTICS 101

harass villages kill sheep and destroy mills.when the real men show up send a
few cheap soldiers to fight the hopeless battle as your expensive men run
cowardly back to base.

MONKS 101
relics are good.conversion is really good healing is very good and if your up
to a weenie victory these can be your very best friends. enjoy!

[This message has been edited by ProDigY (edited 08-15-2000).]


Kitabatake
Forum Member posted 08-13-00 06:27 PM EDT (US)    6 / 8
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I am a user of the M@A rush, and I got it down pat. not many can stop me. I
take out all radial buildings(anything not in range of TC), hit castle, and
take out his TC, quick and easy. My advice: if you get rushed, you're almost
dead. Be Prepared, and make a few defensive stuff, and go for Castle!

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:In the howling wind, comes a stinging rain:
:You see it driving the nails into the souls on the tree of pain:
my zone name: Kitabatake_3
[This message has been edited by Kitabatake (edited 08-13-2000).]


BlakNite_JNK
Forum Member posted 08-13-00 02:32 PM EDT (US)    5 / 8
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Ah, the dreaded m@a rush in the feudal age. I've never really tried it, but I
have been m@a rushed before (but mostly by rookies, I don't know if experts
do it).
Anyways, here's my opinion:

-M@a require a lot of food, 60 of them, thus he shouldn't be able to go to
castle as fast (if he does, he has an incredible economy, so ur screwed
anyways, rush or no rush )

-By the time he has enough m@a to take on a tc with 15 villies in it, you
should be on ur way to castle, so you can relocate and build a better army,
even if your economy is damaged. He's shouldnt have a very good econ either
coz of all the food he used on m@a

-You should have a barracks by the time ur in feudal, so you should have m@as
of ur own. those, combined with the power of the tc should kill of the
aggressors. if u have enough wood, build so archers (im not sure if u guys
recommend this, you already have a tc shooting arrows)

-like most of you have already suggested, build two towers, or at least build
the tower close enough to the tc so it can be covered.

Hope this helps


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
"Diplomats are just as essential to starting a war as Soldiers are for
finishing it. You take Diplomacy out of a war and the thing would fall flat
in a week"
Zone Name: _Steel_Dagger_, BlakNite_JNK



Firebird
Forum Member posted 08-13-00 12:46 PM EDT (US)    4 / 8
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I would suggest building towers in pairs to:
1. Give more villas a place to garrion in
2. Towers can support each other
3. If one tower is destroyed villas can get quickly to the next one.

Happy Hunting!


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There are three kinds of people in the world, those that can count, and those
that can't.
Roses are red, violets are green. If you don't wear your seatbelt, you could
lose your spleen.


Happy_Z
Forum Member posted 08-13-00 03:55 AM EDT (US)    3 / 8
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^^^To the top...^^^
||| |||

agrajag
Forum Member posted 08-05-00 08:40 PM EDT (US)    2 / 8
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When i play, feudal rushes rarely occur. If they do, u should know that its
going to happen by scouting and outposts\houses (whichever u prefer). They
almost always consist of archers\towers so skrims to a good job and have some
early to stop any forward building. try not to spend too much on a feudal
defense becasue if he castle rushes u, he will be ahead in time by quite a
bit, in which case you are screwed.
Also, i prefer to build my tower near my gold miners. There is only or two
gold spots near your base but there is wood everywhere. If someone goes for
your wood, select all vils chopping and make them move to trees directly on
the other side of your TC, making your opponent walk through the arrows fired
by the TC.

Occasionally i have been feudal rushed by sworsdmen, and if done well fully
kills u rather than slowing u down. The swordsmen come in and take out the
vils away from your TC, then run around it making sure there are no vils out
of range from the TC (remember only 15 can go into a TC) and if there is a
tower it is dead because it doesnt have murder holes. By then the opponent
has 15 vils in or near his TC and up to 5 that have run away. The enemy runs
in with more swordsmen and goes straight for the TC. Sometimes the TC maybe
destroyed, and even if it isnt,m your opponent is in castle or will soon be
with KNIGHTS.
Good game.

I hate the feudal sworsmen rush, how do u stop it? (please dont say go castle
quicker or rush them first)


ARchMage_KST
Forum Member posted 08-02-00 03:30 AM EDT (US)    1 / 8
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A few things to try in defending against rushes (in order of importance).
1. Get to Feudal faster (I usually do under 10 min with 22 vils using Chinese)
2. Build some skirms; for the only viable rushing enemy in feudal are archers
3. Build a tower near wood cutters.
4. Constantly scout.
5. Build radar houses (although I never do this)

But IMHO the best defense against rushes is to rush the opponent before he
can rush you.
There are a lot of strategies already posted for this. Practice. Good luck.

P.S. If you're talking about early castle rush, build pikes as your opponent
will surely use knights to chase your villagers.

[This message has been edited by ARchMage_KST (edited 08-02-2000).]

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Slingshot Strat???

Aphroqueen
Forum Member posted 08-15-00 12:51 PM EDT (US)
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Does anyone still use it. A buddy and me are trying to get the timing down
again and I was wondering if anyone still uses it anymore?
Author Replies:

GPA_Chooch709
Forum Member posted 08-15-00 01:39 PM EDT (US)    7 / 7
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deathtrap - sounds good...if it werks...im me tonight maybe we can give it a
shot on the zone against sum rooks just as a test??
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AIM: Chooch709, ZONE: GPA_Chooch709
~Elite Sponge~ & ~GPA Leader~
My Awards Page
Spongers Anonymous
Sponges Recorded Games!


Aphroqueen
Forum Member posted 08-15-00 01:37 PM EDT (US)    6 / 7
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I agree, an imperial sling isnt worth its while now that Castle has fairly
good building killers now in the Xpac. We were aiming for a quick castle
support by the slingers good econ. We have alot of bugs to work out, if its
feasable at all.

Trouble_4_U
Forum Member posted 08-15-00 01:33 PM EDT (US)    5 / 7
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The slingshot does not work against xpert players. The sling becomes so weak
that if he is attacked u basically lose your partner. Even if the bullet
makes it to Imp around 22 min and starts trebbing immediately, the sling is
so weak and vulnerable it just isn't worth it. Any kind of open map like
Arabia or Mongolia spells the death of the sling. Any xpert team would
recognize that the sligshot is happening and just take out the sling. This is
a very risky strategy that has backfired on me more than once. It seems to
work best against rooks and intermediates, but u can forget the aggressive
expert.

BTD_DEathTraP
Forum Member posted 08-15-00 01:32 PM EDT (US)    4 / 7
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Yeah, Chooch, we are gonna try that sometime. I've made a couple improvements
on it though. It think it would be more effective for me to Feudel at around
10 minutes, with about 20 villagers. At the 11 mark, you would tribute me the
food I need to go castle. (I would probably need about 400) This would result
in about a 14 minute castle. During the Feudel/Castle transition, I would put
13 villies on wood, 6 on gold, 2 on stone, and 1 or 2 on food. When I hit
castle, I will pump out Crossbowman, and build a Siege Workshop. By the 16:30
mark, I should be hitting our opponents with:
6-8 Crossbowman, 1-2 Rams, 1-2 Towers. From there I continuously pump out
these units until our opponent is dead.

While this is going on, you will castle at about 20 minutes, (booming) and
finish off anything that is left with a late Castle attack.

What do you think of this??? I think it is a VERY effective strategy.


GPA_Chooch709
Forum Member posted 08-15-00 01:20 PM EDT (US)    3 / 7
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Deathtrap and I (maybe sometime soon) are going to try to make it so he
castles somewhere in the 15 min range by me giving him 200 food at the 14 min
mark...that way he cud pull off a killer quick rush...btw deathtrap, we gunna
play sumtime soon??
one time these me and basilisk were playing these two and green was
slingshotting red...well, when bas attacked green and i attacked red, red
couldnt hadle the attack on tow fronts and green had crap for military (but
about 160 vils) so we won cuz they gave up...they couldnt handle a war on two
fronts...i believe its a risky strat and an expert one from what i've
heard...good luck...


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AIM: Chooch709, ZONE: GPA_Chooch709
~Elite Sponge~ & ~GPA Leader~
My Awards Page
Spongers Anonymous
Sponges Recorded Games!


Evincer
Forum Member posted 08-15-00 01:17 PM EDT (US)    2 / 7
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Speaking for myself, and all the people I have been playing X-pac with - NO,
the slingshot is not a strat that is being used. The reason for this is that
the imperial age does not give a player sufficeint advantage to warent its
use. If you reach imperial without a critical mass your economy won't allow
you all the upgrades and mass millitary nescessary for it to be worth wild.
Reaching imp in under 26 minutes is highly unadvisable as it will leave you
wide open to a lethal late castle attack by your opponent. Well - theres my
two sense for the month.

ProDigY
Forum Member posted 08-15-00 01:10 PM EDT (US)    1 / 7
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Slingshot??? You mean like in the game or for real??

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on the road to incompetence: day 1: villagers

tonto_jayburd
Forum Member posted 08-01-00 04:01 PM EDT (US)
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Ah, yes, villagres. Aren't they funny little things? 25 HP, and no great
fighting skills to speak of. Being the first unit you're able to build in the
game, villagers will quickly become the backbone to a successful loss.
One villager will not lose you a game, however. It takes all of your
villagers working in concert to produce an unsuccessful
attack/defense/retreat.
To begin, as you start the game, study each one of your villagers.
Psychoanalyze them, and see what makes them tick. Don't build any more, or
you won't be able to follow all of your villagers' day-to-day problems. It's
only after finding out what each one's motivation it is that you can
carefully decide which one would prove most deft at building your initial
house.
After your first house is done, you should build a few more villagers, as
most likely your original ones will tire of each other during the long, hard
weeks of sheep harvesting you'll be unfortunately forced into putting them
through.
As you get more and more villagers, you'll find it much harder to get to know
all of them, and thus your control of them will drop greatly. At this point,
you should think about forming a labor union for organization. Unions come
with vacations and such, however, so when your villies finish their sheep,
let them sit there. Give them a vacation, even if it's only 5 minutes, it's
years to them.
Later in the game, you may find that you're gaining too many villagers
(15-20) and you'll probably find yourself unable to control and relate to
them all. At this point, you should delete the more arrogant ones in a cruel
(but necessary) selection process.
As you progress through the game, from Dark to Feudal, to Castle, and finally
to Imperial, (although I've never seen it before, and suspect it's a myth)
you will find that shared experience you get with your villagers as they talk
about their feelings far more rewarding than the senseless battle you may
otherwise have employed them in. And you can share their indignance as the
enemy rolls through your town without so much as a thought towards what the
villies might feel about their homeland being destroyed.



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We are the Tonto clan, feel free to check us out at
http://www.geocities.com/tonto_clan/index.htm
I'm also a member of KYA: Kick Your @$$! JOIN US! at go.to/kya .

[This message has been edited by tonto_jayburd (edited 08-02-2000).]

Author Replies:

Idle_villager
Forum Member posted 08-02-00 11:05 PM EDT (US)    15 / 15
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I think I figured out the paradox about the women villies in AoE. See,
originally the women weren't let out of the TC. Then comes AoK and after many
women's lib. protests ES decided to let the women out of the TC, but only
some. There still are a bunch that stay in there for reproductive reasons.
I tell ya, it's all about equal rights and such.


SiLent_SniPer
Forum Member posted 08-02-00 09:48 PM EDT (US)    14 / 15
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lol, real funny. Hey, ever wondered why a monk costs 100 gold? Is he a gold
statue or something?
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quote:
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Know yourself, know your enemy. A hundred battles you fight, a hundred you
shall win
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Sun Zi

Pascal
Forum Member posted 08-02-00 12:08 PM EDT (US)    13 / 15
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lord knows i try, but it is so hard to have a meaningful conversation with
the vills.
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Non impediti latione cogitationis
Unencumbered by the thought process

tonto_jayburd
Forum Member posted 08-01-00 10:56 PM EDT (US)    12 / 15
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hehe...glad y'all liked it. I didn't write it, I just found it over at AoKPro
and thought I'd take it here as well.

IV1066
Forum Member posted 08-01-00 10:09 PM EDT (US)    11 / 15
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I've been looking for a villager expert like tonto_jayburd. Do you know how
the villagers are made in the TC? What did the villagers do in AoE anyways,
there weren't any females at all! Boring, boring. Although they did get to
spend there money on things more important than female villager clothing. And
where do monks get all that dye?
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"Some people's idea of free speech is that they are free to say anything they
like, but if anyone says anything back, that is an outrage."

DMS_evangelion
Forum Member posted 08-01-00 09:52 PM EDT (US)    10 / 15
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i actually tried this once, and found that most of my villagers secretly live
soap opera lives, having multiple affairs at once, engaging in gang
activities, and a couple even beat and robbed one of the women villies ( they
were quickly deleted ). i actually think its better to NOT know ur villies
personally, i think it better to be kept in the dark about the horrible lives
they lead. Id rather NOT know some of the things they do, or else my mind
would be completely polluted with garbage.

Riley Man
Forum Member posted 08-01-00 09:43 PM EDT (US)    9 / 15
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Wow, I really gotta try this strategy sometime.
I can't wait for "on the road to incompetence: day 2: militia" -- how to send
your men to certain death!

Celtic_Boru
Forum Member posted 08-01-00 09:03 PM EDT (US)    8 / 15
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Lol, this would be better suited for OD though.
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All war is hell, it is best not to fool yourself otherwise. -W.T. Sherman
War is hell. I shall bring that hell to the Rebels!- W.T. Sherman

DaRq_Fire
Forum Member posted 08-01-00 08:07 PM EDT (US)    7 / 15
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Actually, I am in The MoO ( Mastars of Oblivian) clan. I left DaRq for a
better clan. I mean I cant take all that boring no talk games. It was so
boring in darq. They are all way to searious. I am pretty much in no clan, so
this has no way anything to do with the DaRq clan.
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Fire... The only TRUE light...

Soviet Hero
 posted 08-01-00 06:17 PM EDT (US)    6 / 15
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LOL, very funny!
I wonder when my villagers never sleep or have a life? My villagers seem to
be so nice and do everything I tell them to do.

Hero


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Soon my fellow comrades will rise back to power and conquer what was meant to
be ours, the world! -Soviet Hero
Zone= _Alik_


Wascally_Wabbit
Forum Member posted 08-01-00 06:02 PM EDT (US)    5 / 15
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Keep up the good work Jayburd, this could really get very entertaining.
And..er, I think Fire is a former Darq, and they supposedly weren't good
enough for them. Or was it the other way round, I forget.

Eumaies
Forum Member posted 08-01-00 05:47 PM EDT (US)    4 / 15
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Funny post--
actually, i think i may try that sometime... it'd be funny.


The Kyaia
Forum Member posted 08-01-00 04:09 PM EDT (US)    3 / 15
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Is DaRq_Fire really a member of "Darq"?

DaRq_Fire
Forum Member posted 08-01-00 04:07 PM EDT (US)    2 / 15
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     [I originally said I wouldn't alter this area, but some people whined
     about the excess space this particilar reply said.]
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Fire... The only TRUE light...

The Kyaia
Forum Member posted 08-01-00 04:04 PM EDT (US)    1 / 15
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LOL
You have been playing "The Sims" too much.

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Come on vote you great warriors!!...please?

Weisi the Great of Stavka
Forum Member posted 08-14-00 06:02 AM EDT (US)
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I have been doing a poll to see just what every one loves on this forum. This
includes X-pack. but not new civ.
So far:
Vikings 80 Vikings rule?
Saracen 71 I agree
Britons 67 Stupid longbows
Chinese 65 Hmm...being Chinese I should be happy
Franks 58 Yep
Mongols 54 Yep..once again
Teutons 43 I love these Germans
Celts 41 but they are rubbish
Goths 39 Highier?
Turks 32 Come on.
Byzant 30 You've got to be kidding
Persian 24 What ?!
As you can see this does not include the civs. Feel free to rank all 13+5
civs in order of best to worst. This is
assuming random map conquest. I know we can blab on about maps all day but
this personal opinions so just rank them!

Author Replies:

ProDigY
Forum Member posted 08-15-00 01:26 PM EDT (US)    6 / 6
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1.Byzantinesi use them their good)
2.Teutonsthree words:elite teutonic knight)
3.franksgotta love those throwing axemen)
4.Japinesesamuri annoy me..good navy though)
5.gothsno big deal)
6.Chineseokay nothing spectacular)
7.Vikingstwo unique units...drool..but still,they lack something..sigh...)
8:Sarcenspretty good..not much in the way of econamy though)
9:Persianselephants...)
10.celtseh....)
11.Turkslotsa buildings)
12.Britonsuhhhh...longbowmen)
13.Mongolsannoy me some more..)
all in all every civ has its strengths and weaknesses...

[This message has been edited by ProDigY (edited 08-15-2000).]


BlakNite_JNK
Forum Member posted 08-14-00 06:59 PM EDT (US)    5 / 6
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Here's my civ opinion:
1.Mongols (gotta love that hunting bonus)
2.Saracens (Market's incredible escpecially in feudal)
3.Bynz (cheap counters, neat imp cost)
4.Celts (wood bonus, great for boat boom)
5.Chinese (I can't seem to get advantage of their extra 3 vils)
6.Teutons (nobody let's me play them )
7.Vikings (I don't know why, I can't seem to win with them)
8.turks (no real advantage, but no pikes hurts this civ a lot)
9.Persians (sick of elephants)
10.Goths
11.Franks (too darn slow in dark,feudal, not my faverote)
12.Japs (too many missing economic techs)

I never played brits, so I can't give an opinion. I should tho.


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"Diplomats are just as essential to starting a war as Soldiers are for
finishing it. You take Diplomacy out of a war and the thing would fall flat
in a week"
Zone Name: _Steel_Dagger_, BlakNite_JNK



Great Benze
Forum Member posted 08-14-00 03:28 PM EDT (US)    4 / 6
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I don't exactly order my civs...it's just play 'em, don't play 'em.

On land I play Britons and Mayans (in the X-pack of course ).

And on water I play Byzantines. Fire ships are evil versus those silly massed
galleons war everyone is playing today .



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--
|Rookies are our future! Be nice to them.
|ZN : Great_Benze
|I Play Shimo and RM.
|Visit my awards page!
|Intermediate at skill, rookie at heart.

Tsar_IvanIV
Forum Member posted 08-14-00 01:11 PM EDT (US)    3 / 6
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1. Britons(cool archers)
2. Franks(no shortage on food)
3. Byzantines(i like those spearmen/skimrishers sushes)
4. Chinese(progress a lot faster )
5. Celts(nice agressive civ)
6. Teutons(not bad tech tree)
7. Turks(only one thing good:gunpoweder)
8. Vicks(only for water maps)
9. Persians(i am sick of their els)
10. Japanize(vills shoutins thoses animal sounds)
11. Mongols(their v ery best l. cav. is no matck to franch horse)
12. Goths(bad economy)
13. Saracens(I hate thoses desert tribes)

Zero
Forum Member posted 08-14-00 11:14 AM EDT (US)    2 / 6
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Foe me it would go something like this. Kepp in mind I like to use walls
every no nd then and that I like to flush and gush.
1. Franks(palidind and ta's kick)
2. Byzantine(great on land and sea)
3. Viking(great bonuss)
4. Mongol's(speed)
5. Saracin( gallies)
6. Goths(best infantry)
7. Persian(war elphants duh)
8. Turks( They have no real strong unit)
9. Celt(like the uu but still something missing)
10. Chiennes( like thier bonunss but they never come in handy fo my play)
11. Brits(missing to many things)
12. Tuetons( thier uu is to dam slow!)





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Heck is for people who don't believe in gosh. I'm a full supporter of flaming
the $h!t out of stupid people.

Clear_Abzolut
Forum Member posted 08-14-00 10:50 AM EDT (US)    1 / 6
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I like the Spaniards. They have a great tech tree! Huns are also nice. Those
Tarkans are freakin cool! I took out a whole town really fast with em. They
take a TC apart in seconds! (fully upgraded E.Tarkans =)) I still like Celts
a lot though...they may not be my best civ, but they are really fun to use.
Err...my friend has the xpack, so I get to play and stuff...

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Byz Boat Boom

Firebird
Forum Member posted 08-13-00 12:31 PM EDT (US)
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This is a strat I made up that uses Byz fire ships. Here is what you do. It
realy only works on Islands, cause you need a lot of water. Try to get a
decent castle time and have about 6 docks. Once you get castle, start pumping
out fire ships like crazy. Station them around your island to watch for
incoming attacks. Once you have around 30, go imp. Once you get imp get some
cannon gallys and take all your fire ships and about 5 cannon gallys to the
enemy island. Have your fire ships surround the cannon gallys and have the
gallys shell the enemy while using your fire ships to keep off attackers. You
should try to get fast fire ship as well. This strat works best if you have
an ally cause he can take care of the ground work while you take care of the
sea. I am still working out a few bugs in it but over all it does work. Try
it out. Watch out for demo ships though. Having a ally to fight of demo ships
could be a lifesaver. But around 30 fire ships could take out a few demo
ships and you want to target the docks first anyway to keep them on there
island. It is pretty fun, so try it out!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
There are three kinds of people in the world, those that can count, and those
that can't.
Roses are red, violets are green. If you don't wear your seatbelt, you could
lose your spleen.

Author Replies:

Firebird
Forum Member posted 08-14-00 06:04 PM EDT (US)    2 / 2
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Ya like I said, I am still working out the bugs. Thanks for the tips.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
There are three kinds of people in the world, those that can count, and those
that can't.
Roses are red, violets are green. If you don't wear your seatbelt, you could
lose your spleen.


Zero
Forum Member posted 08-13-00 09:14 PM EDT (US)    1 / 2
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This strat is basicly a castle age gush, 1 age later than you need to start
containg your oppontnet(s). Here aare a few recomendations. First guch in
fuedal. Then get to castle and upgrade you galleys and pump out fire ships.
If you have things under control you allie(if you have one) Should get to a
quick imperial age and then you follow along. By the time you get cannon
galleons you should have complete controll of the water, becuse of you don't
thier a good target for enemy demo ships. Also, I would research galleon and
fsat fire before you imploy(sp?) cannon ships. Once you have your advisary(s)
contained you should make a force of cavalry(I use a mix of cats and palidins
or cavieler, Some arablists guarded by pikes. then bring in some rams and
trebs once you clear out most of thier troops. Or, If you bring them in at
the start of the invasion you should keep the pikes and arbs with the trebs.
use you cavalry to cover the rams from meelee units.
Some other things to remember.

1. Use cats sparringly unless fighting infantry civs(goths and soon to be
aztecs)
2. Spread to any uninhbited island and build a dock, tc, and some homes.
3. use the other islands to boost your econemy
4. If you have spare ships I would put them on patrol between your island and
your enemy's island to watch for transport ships that may carry troops and
villies.
5. If your opponent is to tough to kill then capture all the relics(if normal
victory)
6. If you try a relic win form a blockaid around your island with your ships.
7.Also, try a wonder win, even if you don't plan on winning this way It
really gets them frantic.( assuming it's nirmal victory, otherwise they will
just laugh at you)


Hope this helped, If I made any mistakes here let me know, I am always
looking to better my game.


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Heck is for people who don't believe in gosh. I'm a full supporter of flaming
the $h!t out of stupid people.

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How do I stop the rush?

Nakul
Forum Member posted 08-15-00 11:57 AM EDT (US)
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Please help me. I am trying to learn good strategy and I just can't stop the
Feudal rush! What do I do? What units do I make? What buildings, where?
Please be as detailed as you can.
Thank you.

Nakul.

Author Replies:

ProDigY
Forum Member posted 08-15-00 12:45 PM EDT (US)    2 / 2
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Hey. The way i do things is to build stone walls on all "choke points" around
your base,that will hold of the enemy long enough to get some sort of army in
position(dont forget to build gates!).Second Build guard towers near
resources, villages, defensable choke points , ect.upgrade to man-at-arms and
build an archery range when you can.once you have an army you can play the
defensive or use hit-and-run tactics.always keep your villagers doing
something so you dont waste time.:-D
[This message has been edited by ProDigY (edited 08-15-2000).]


cnardone
Forum Member posted 08-15-00 12:29 PM EDT (US)    1 / 2
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If you want details you need to give some. What civs are involved? Are you
playing the computer? What Map type are you playing? Any and all or a
specific one? What type of unit is the enemny rushing with? what is your time
to Fuedal age? Without more details, I can only give you very general
instruction.
1) get to fuedal faster (than your opponent). there are many threads on how
to do this.
2) depending on the map type building Palisade walls can help if you cannot
improve your feudal time. Stone walls are great too once into fuedal.
3) protect your walls with Towers. Protect your towers with towers in firing
range.

cmn

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Experts on BF (Advanced strats)

The_Noble_Savij
Forum Member posted 08-14-00 04:09 PM EDT (US)
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1) The forests provide natural choke points that look like alleys. Place your
walls where the alley begins on your side. This will funnel your opponent(s)
forces and make them a more concentrated target. It will also restrict their
units' movement as they won't be able to quickly move infantry to allow trebs
or onagers to the front. You will have a broad front along which you will be
able to get more defensive trebs and archers while he will not be able to get
enough trebs or skirmishers to match. I've always made a habit of walling up
their side of the alley and it came back to bite me a couple times.
2) In a 200 pop game, have no less than 40 trade carts. I built 30 one game
and was still out trade profitted by 10k gold. I'd imagine 50 carts wouldn't
be too much. Delete gold villagers when they're done mining all the gold
piles. Your remaining farmers and choppers will still provide an abundance of
their respective resources. If you get low you can always buy more,
especially since the price of food will have fallen significantly.

3) When destroying walls don't stop at just a few tiles. Take out the entire
wall or at least 8 or more tiles. Units colliding and regrouping while trying
to squeeze through a narrow gap will make themselves rediculously easy
targets.

4) Never ever forget to research siege engineers. You'll need it for treb
wars as well as for onagers. Costwise, onagers are effective against archers
if they can get a shot off. Siege engineers helps them get at least one shot
off before they drop.

5) If a choke point is blocked by massed archers send in elite skirmies as
fodder and follow them up with a flood of onagers. even if the area is
supported by cavalry, you just need to get rid of the archers, because then
you can send in pikes to easily deal with the cavalry. Rush in infantry or
cavalry afterward and begin building to secure the area. Getting a foothold
on the other side of those narrow passes is tricky, so don't lose it once you
get it.

6) Have villagers repairing your trebs during treb wars. It's obvious and
probably not an advanced strat, but I seldom see anybody do it.

Author Replies:

The_Noble_Savij
Forum Member posted 08-15-00 11:02 AM EDT (US)    5 / 5
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Actually, you just build 20 or so initally. Then, as your gold miners exhaust
the gold piles, you delete them and create trade carts. If you build 50 trade
carts, have 35 farmers and 25 wood choopers, you can still field a 90 unit
army. The key would be that with all the gold from the trade carts you could
field that army continuously.

Great Benze
Forum Member posted 08-14-00 10:24 PM EDT (US)    4 / 5
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If I built 50 trade carts I'd have space for about 4 millitary untis .



------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
|Rookies are our future! Be nice to them.
|ZN : Great_Benze
|I Play Shimo and RM.
|Visit my awards page!
|Intermediate at skill, rookie at heart.

The_Noble_Savij
Forum Member posted 08-14-00 06:30 PM EDT (US)    3 / 5
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Definitely. Every time I play BF I think about choosing a civ with siege
onagers for just that reason. Even better than walling after yourself is to
cut a path to within a few trees depth of his town and fire away safe behind
the trees (I saw this in a recorded game once). Do this in several different
spot and you'll really squeeze his amount of available land. Sometimes, if
given enough time and the right map, you can circle the entire map and come
up from behind. You're in luck if you can get to their trade route. Also, if
I was going to cut a path to gain access to their town I'd make sure it was
more than just 1 onager shot wide for the same reasons I mentioned above.

fissh_e
Forum Member posted 08-14-00 04:37 PM EDT (US)    2 / 5
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Nice post! Might I add:
7) If you have siege onagers cut through the forest and build a stronghold on
the other side to surprise the enemy. It might be better however to do this
at a not-so-obvious position: where the forest is a little thicker.

8) It can really pay off to be with the turks in post imperial: if you have a
decent number of farmers and woodchoppers to support them, you can
practically make lt cavs non-stop, from like 8 stables!!! This will be even
better with the x-pack's halberdiers.




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Zone name: fissh_e
e-mail: fissh_e@yahoo.com
Future website: www.geocities.com/fissh_e

Trouble_4_U
Forum Member posted 08-14-00 04:32 PM EDT (US)    1 / 5
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I have an even better idea. Why not just be Mongols, Teuts, Celts or Saracens
and make Siege Onagers. Then blast a path through the trees in some out of
the way place. Have a large army ready to go once you have blasted through.
Then enter the enemies home base unannouced. Why attack him at the walls
where he expects. Use the Siege Onagers to blast down trees and hit him in
the unprotected underside with a complete surprise attack.
P.S. Don't forget to wall and gate the path through the trees or the enemy
can then use the secret passage against u.


Trouble_4_U

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I would like to know if anyone knows quick ways to eliminate an opponent
early in Regicide, the Castle always seems to be in the way.
I've experimented with hordes of infantry in Feudal age, and Rams supported
with infantry in early castle. I like the idea of hitting before my opponent
researches murder holes.

The best I seem to be able to do is knock out the king in 25 minutes.

Are there any good strategys out there?


Author Replies:

Paralyticus
Forum Member posted 08-14-00 02:24 PM EDT (US)    5 / 5
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Ok, these are Rookie / Intermediate tactics.
My favorite victim is a player of about same level of ability but with an
orientation towards going imperial.

I often win with this strat to people that go imperial while I am still in
the final stages of preparation. Why?... Because their trebs will not do them
any good under this type of attack...and Trebs is usually their first
priority, hehe.

The strat (in both variations) is a do or die approach (if you fail, you
lose), but usually it is the one to use against people that beat you in
imperial. They never expect it and are usually not prepared to deal with it.

#1: DECEPTION.

Be very quick to castle, make food and gold your primary resources but have
some wood to boot (stop wood when you have around 1000-1200 extra and move
them back to food).
Upgrade resistance and attack power of Knights and make a BIG bunch of them.
Go to near his castle with say 3 villies and make a quick Siege workshop out
of sight. Be sure to scout that the path from the SW to the Castle is not
near any enemy Barracks or Stables! This is of utmost importance and
justifies scrificing scouts if need be.

Garrison some 3 to 5 Rams, the more the merrier. Upgrade meanwhile to light
Cavalry (it's cheap) and produce 2 light cavs. Send them to the SW and they
wait there. Note: You can build a stable right there, but it is expensive (in
wood).

When they are ready, attack with the Knights furiously at his main TC or
resource gathering point. With 10-15 knights you will be doing quite a splash
- either you succeed in putting down his TC (that's practically the victory,
you will be able to kill lots of villagers and invalidate most farms) or you
are attacked with EVERYTHING that he has.

Now the important part:

WHILE ALL THIS FRAY is going on, you send the Rams to the castle. 5 rams
should be able to demolish it fast enough for it to go un-noticed. As soon as
the King goes out, send in the light cavs, that's quick work.

This tactic is a gambit: you scrifice material (actually A LOT) in order to
give the king a check-mate, LOL!

Of course, the 2nd. time you play this guy he WILL have a few hand to hand
units near the Castle.


#2: The THRUTHFUL ATTACK (you're doing what it looks like )

For the 2nd. time, you do like this (great if you are the Brits, because of
the extra range):

Base your economy in Wood + Gold (some food for units and upgrades, make sure
all available shields are researched).

Instead of the cavs, make A LOT of inexpensive Elite Skirmishers and Pikes.
Also many crossbowmen (MANY, I repeat).
In this strat you NEED something to mow down Onagers, like Cavs, or Light
cavs. These must be vigilant and a little set back, you only need to get them
to work if siege shows up, else let them rest.


As in the previous example, you need to make a Siege Workshop and 2 light
cavalry. Again you will have the Rams
and the more the better.

The formation is, as usual, the Crossbowmen in the back, puncturing
everything that shows ahead.
The front is Pikes, followed by the Skirmishers. Skirmishers are almost
impervious to castle fire and (when PROPERLY massed - that is: MANY) thay
will almost by themselves, kill any enemy infantry sent at your Rams. Of
course your archers will do the most damage to infantry.
The Trick here is to attack anything popping out of that castle - and be
sure: there will be many hand to hand units there.
You lure them to the sacrifice by having ONE Ram attack the castle. They will
all pop up and you just have to keep sending cheap pikes and archers and
skirmishers to take care of them (plus the occasional light cav or knight to
take down onagers).

when he is out of hand to hand units, time to make the other rams do their
job, Light Cav will take care of King, etc.

#3 - After you do #1 and #2...

The 3rd. time you'll perhaps have to invent another, LOL!


Sorry if this seems a bit strange, but it has worked for me vs. strangers and
known people alike.


I'm not that good though, so a good opponent might resist effectivelly.
However, if you are facing this guy that just wants to go imperial, make
trebs, etc. you have a great chance of succeeding





tex
Forum Member posted 08-12-00 04:56 PM EDT (US)    4 / 5
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massed berserks or tks with navy backing them up
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Paulverisor
Forum Member posted 08-10-00 10:36 PM EDT (US)    3 / 5
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Thanks for your suggestion BTD_DEathTraP, I'm not too familiar to the flush
strategy but I'll see if I can't find some information on how to best pull
this strategy off. Sounds like this would be right down the Britons alley.
Thanks again


BTD_DEathTraP
Forum Member posted 08-10-00 00:19 AM EDT (US)    2 / 5
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You want something, quick, eh? Try this:
Pull a basic flush, avoiding the castle. Simply bring in about 8 archers and
3 forward villies. Tower up his wood, gold, stone, and try to get the farms
too if possible. In most cases, your opponent will simply resign. If he does
not however, you have all of his resources covered, so you can beat him to
Castle, and finish off the castle with some rams.
Hope this helps!



Idle_villager
Forum Member posted 08-10-00 00:09 AM EDT (US)    1 / 5
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um...no, but a better bet is getting to imp where 40 pals can surprise and
just end the game there

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Strat: early castle Cav archer rush

Tarentola
Forum Member posted 08-14-00 08:03 AM EDT (US)
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This strat is based on a early castle LCav rush. The theory is to send fast
units to kill enemy vils and boom meanwhile. I think Britons are the best civ
for it:
1) You are going to boom while attacking. The rush is meant to kill enemy
vils and slow their economy, not to gain a foothold in the enemy base.
2) Britons have a fast castle (needed to produce cav archers early) and are
great at booming.

Here's what you do: you try to get a pretty fast castle (18-19 min or so,
build enough vils to boom decently). Have some vils on gold in Dark Age.
Build two archery ranges and a market as your Feudal Age buildings.
As soon as you hit castle, create 4-6 cav archers. Move them to the enemy
lumber camp, put them on defensive and kill as much enemy vils as possible.
Enemy spearmen, the most common defensive unit in Feudal, get killed as well.
Micromanage of course.
Meanwhile, boom by making multiple TCs. When your cav archers are killed you
can devote all your time to booming.
if your cav archers manage to stay alive and ruin the enemy's economy
completely you might want to invade.

Why cav archers? They make lousy units, sure. But they have an advantage over
LCav or knights: their cost. Cav archers don't cost food, which is needed to
boom decently. They only cost gold, which isn't needed when booming. I always
have a lot of spare gold in Castle, I often resort to buying food and wood.
Instead, you could use it on Cav archers.

Some ideas to improve this strat:
- build a Blacksmith in Feudal and research fletching.
- be Mongols: not as good at booming, but fast castle as well and good cav
archers.
- create some 4 LCav and have a quite deadly force against enemy vils.

Feel free to add/criticize/comment.


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I know... the last in line is always called a bastard... - Placebo

Author Replies:

Eumaies
Forum Member posted 08-14-00 02:14 PM EDT (US)    6 / 6
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Another X-pac note-- briton cav archers don't get thumb ring (100% accuracy)
so they're stuck down at 50%, which sucks. Turks, Saracens, Huns, and Mongols
all have great cav archers now, and raiding is easier than before, so I'd
raid with them.

Trouble_4_U
Forum Member posted 08-14-00 02:11 PM EDT (US)    5 / 6
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X-Pack Note******
Use the Huns. Their cav archers are 25% less in caslte age 30% less in Imp
and think about all the wood u can save because u don't have to build
houses!!!


Trouble_4_U


Anti liberal
Forum Member posted 08-14-00 02:09 PM EDT (US)    4 / 6
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nice strat, i like to see someone attempt to use those cav archers, which for
most people's uses are a pretty worthless unit. i'll have to try this
sometime.

Winston
Forum Member posted 08-14-00 02:07 PM EDT (US)    3 / 6
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ummm. Cav archers are pretty pathetic in general. I think this strat would
die easy as skirms kill cav archers easy.
Its all how the game plays, but a knight rush would be more effective even if
it did cost food.


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Anti liberal
Forum Member posted 08-14-00 02:07 PM EDT (US)    2 / 6
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nice strat, i like to see someone attempt to use those cav archers, which for
most people's uses are a pretty worthless unit. i'll have to try this
sometime.

Tarentola
Forum Member posted 08-14-00 01:57 PM EDT (US)    1 / 6
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-TOP- It can't be that bad a strategy...
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I know... the past will catch you up as you run faster...
I know... the last in line is always called a bastard... - Placebo

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Fuedal Booming??

Aphroqueen
Forum Member posted 08-11-00 04:20 PM EDT (US)
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By booming I mean expanding around the map and maxing out, heavily, your
econ. Can this be effectively done in fuedal?
My idea behind this is to develope a strategy that sets you going fuedal as
soon as possible, but allow you still compete with a fast castler for a while
until you are in a situation to allow the advance to castle.

During a flush, the biggest thing is having quick defenses and having
multiple locations of stone and wood. So lets consider that fact that your
wood and stone incomes are healthy. Stone and wood are used to make several
key defensive structures (mills, mines, lumbercamps, palisades, walls, towers
to be the most). Now if your econ for these resources is healthy, you could
use these same resources to fuel a small time fuedal boom. Which should
defeat a flush any day of the week, because your econ is stronger. During a
castle attack, wood and food is important to make those vital counter units
to stop the knight/ram attacks that always ensue in early castle.

The difficulty of this shouldnt be too hard. Intermediate non-chinese players
should have no difficulties getting to fuedal in less that 11 minutes using
the basic concepts of Gutter_Rats Flush build order. Now we can aim for a
castle time of about 22-25 minutes. I wouldnt suggest any later than 25
because your opponents castle boom will begin taking effect at this point.
Advanced players who dont attack will be well on their way to Imperial by
now, thats okay, this is an intermediate strat that is designed to defeat
flushing and fast castling in one strat for the intermediate player.

Starting out. As stated, aim for an 11 to 11:30 fuedal time. Most
intermediates wont be to castle for another 5-6 minutes giving you a head
start on booming which equals 10-14 villagers before he castles and is about
to attack.

Once you start fuedal, take 4 or so villagers and send them to a local dual
resource point (ie two or more resource nodes). Once there build a rax then
build a tower on the outter edge of the perimter facing your opponent. Then
put one villager to work putting up palisades, put dont close them off,
you'll need to bring in more villagers, while the others build gather
structures and begin gathering (I suggest wood first). Once this is
successfully up and running make another. It shouldnt be too hard to have two
"expansions" up an running before you begin your castle advancement. After 4
villies make the site, add another 5-6 to it.

Most sites will include wood and stone/gold. If you have 10 villies on site,
thats enough to garrison 2 towers if attacked and put 6 on wood and 4 on
mining.

Once you go castle, build a TC (or two) at each location and add farms and
gold miners soon for seige/knights.

With two expansions, you can have the following ratios:

Hometown- 8 farming, 8 cutting, 4 mining stone (19-20 total as per flush
build order)
site 1 - 6 cutting, 4 mining stone
site 2 - 6 cutting, 4 mining gold

Total: 8 food, 20 on wood, 4 gold, 8 stone.

This gives you alot of wood, for farms and TC booming and forward basing once
you hit castle. If you need gold badly, you can sell stone or wood, but stone
is the more important resource for towering and getting a fast castle up once
you do go castle.

Getting to a late castle with 40+ villagers shouldnt be too hard with some
practice.

Defending:

Flushes: Put a tower up at each end of the resource site and palisade 3/4s of
it. Dont palisade the whole thing, you'll be sending more villies soon. Take
care to position your towers so that your opponent cant get a tower up on
your resources. Make both spears and skirms at each then use villagers to
garrison the towers in times of attack to maximize firepower. I leave it up
to you which gets defenses first, your home town or your 'expansions'.

Early Castle attacks (and mid ones too): You'll need archers/skirms and
spears and good recon. He'll have the better units, but in the early going
you should have the better econ and military (quantity). Good recon is a
must, because once he gets a TC built or a castle, its gonna be there for a
while. So build lookout towers and get town watch (patrol) and keep an eye
out for those forward bases. As soon as you spot a foward base going up, get
walls and and towers up to front it asap. A good defense will work, because
you arent technically turtling, so dont be afraid to defense up against his
forward base. In the meantime, send a defensive force from an "expansion" to
his base to raid his econ. You never know what he might be up too. If no
forward base ever comes, make sure to place a few spears on defense at each
location for knight raids if you suspect it.

If your opponent recons well, he'll most likely discover one of your
'expansions' and will most likely try to hit it. This is where good tower and
palisade placement will help you. If you are concerned with a forward TC or
castle against one of your operations, place palisades on any flat ground
near your position. This will prevent him from sneaking a TC up on top of you.

This build is a basic strat that you can use to thwart a flusher or fast
caslter of an intermediate level and give you the resources to hit the Castle
age heavy and hard.

Pros:

This should totally stop a flush, if not initially, in the long haul.

You can use it to defeat a fast castle attacker. Fuedal units can stop a
castle attack, but cannot be used for successful offense. So use it to
successfully stop his attacks while you build up econ and hit him hard with a
strong castle

Might scare your opponent into thinking you are flushing and stop his build
to make military. This will be a waste on his part while you fuedal boom.

Ease of booming once you hit castle. You already have the operations up just
add the TCs, in the Xpac this early mining of stone will help with the castle
boom also.

Early benefit of fuedal econ upgrades. Since you are actually gathering
during fuedal, you can actually get usage out of those fuedal upgrades. Most
players dont get these upgrades until after they castle (17-20 minutes),
whereas you are using them from the 12 minute mark on.

Cons:

This is very vulnerable to the traditional 28-30 villie castle at about
18-19. The economy is strong enough here to allow booming while attacking.
This is bad for you. However, if they continue with their castle build after
you fuedal at about 10 minutes, they are very dum and probably wont attack
you for some time.

Long term waste in wood. Each expansion cost alot of wood, and if you arent
caught up in a fuedal or early castle fight, these resources could be a
waste. However, this strat calls for 1/2 your workers on wood ensuring more
than ample wood.

-----------------------

I just conceived this strat and I'm not at home to really test. I thought I
would throw it out there and get some opinions and feedback from you guys
before I really got into testing it. If someone already thought of this or
posted about, apologizes I thought of this after watching a game where a
flush was defeated from migrating with each flush attack. I thought it would
be a good strat to go ahead and start migrating as a planned strat until
waiting until you know if its a fuedal rush. I then tried to address the
issue of defending yourself if a flush didnt come but instead an early
castle. This is where I realised it could be used to beat off an early castle
attack as well as a flush. But that is where it stops, IMO, as you need
multiple TCs building villies to keep up after 23 minutes or so.

I welcome comments, flames, etc. Dont be too harsh, remember I havent tested
yet.

[This message has been edited by Aphroqueen (edited 08-11-2000).]

Author Replies:

Winston
Forum Member posted 08-14-00 01:06 PM EDT (US)    8 / 8
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A few quick observations:
1. Petards get killed walking to castles, so are ineffective.
2. They can take out 1 palisade per 1 petard... but takes several to knock
out a wall.
3. stone is important to boom, and you can boom still TC boom very well. TC
rush? nope.
And for some reason, maybe the demo, 4 archers dont make the RAMS go ANY
FASTER.


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I know I can write on this computer screen somehow. Now to sign this
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SwiftAero
Forum Member posted 08-12-00 03:55 PM EDT (US)    7 / 8
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Aphroqueen, great thoughts. Though my gut tells me that Tonto_Andy has got it
right with his statement,
>>
Unfortunately, this strategy will easily fall prey to a 16 min castler,
because he will be able to get multiple TCs up
<<
Multiple TCs are a very important part of the game for the economy.
By the way, my guess is that you're a software developer. Nobody has ever
called mines nodes! But I like it.


Tonto_Andy
Forum Member posted 08-12-00 03:30 PM EDT (US)    6 / 8
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I'd say that this strat wouldn't really work against better players, but,
like you said, against intermediate flushers/crushers it might be effective.
Unfortunately, this strategy will easily fall prey to a 16 min castler,
because he will be able to get multiple TCs up, completely nullifying your
economical advantage. He can then attack with superior units, and completely
destroy you. A 22-25 min castle is just as effective as an earlier one.
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Freshly Reincarnated!

tonto_real
Forum Member posted 08-11-00 10:00 PM EDT (US)    5 / 8
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For Council_Of_Elders on Wheelbarrow go =>
http://www.geocities.com/tonto_clan/gamedatafief/ta_wheel.htm



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(What's "tonto" mean?);)

for yor "Knightly spurs" JOIN US! TONTO EMPIRE @
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[This message has been edited by tonto_real (edited 08-11-2000).]


the_basilisk
Forum Member posted 08-11-00 09:11 PM EDT (US)    4 / 8
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NOT a god idea against good players, but I like doing this vs someone I know
I can beat easily:
60 vils dark (YES 60! I sometimes even build all my 150+ here)
60 vils + all econ and some millitary upgrades in Feudal
30-40 vils + all upgrades castle + dot the map with TCs for resource spots
Then imp, and you will have soo much crap and soooooo much of the map
stripped of resources that the enemy would be overwhelmed.

Walling in the bad guy just makes this all the more effective...it's just
cool...


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Aphroqueen
Forum Member posted 08-11-00 07:11 PM EDT (US)    3 / 8
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Okay, I still havent gotten home to begin build order testing. But I decided
to continue some more conceptual work.
If you are not familiar with Council_of_Elders' Villager Second work go here
to read up before going any further:
http://mrfixitonline.com/readPosting.asp?PostingId=6008

Okay, I first decided to analyse this strat further, based on its ability to
stop an early Castle. Early castle attacks, for intermediates, usually begin
about the 17-19 minute mark. Lets go with 17 minutes

17 minutes = 1020 seconds.

For the Fuedal Boomer the TC is idle (not making villies) for 255 seconds of
this time (researching loom, fuedal, wheelbarrow, town watch).

The early Castles TC is idle (again not making villies) for 390 seconds
(researching, loom, fuedal, wheelbarrow, castle).

The difference here is 135 seconds which equals roughly 5 villagers. As of
the moment that Castler hits Castle, he is already behind 300 villager
seconds a minute. Not much as you'll see soon, but we still have to factor in
some things.

Now at the 17 minute mark here is how many villagers both players should
have. (assuming the TC is making villagers if not researching)(lag not
included)

Fuedal boomer: 31
Castler: 25-26

(this is just pure theoretical numbers)

So at the 17 minute mark: The Fuedal Boomer has 1860 Villager Seconds(VS) for
production per minute. The castler has 1560 for production so far. Now these
number are gonna be further modified.

-- I'm gonna attempt to account for the fuedal econ upgrades and for the 2-4
villagers used for forward building by the castler.

Wheelbarrow, I honestly have no way of testing yet how to count in its
benefits, but +10% production seems fair and not very excessive.

All the econ upgrades add a +15% work rate but I'll round this down to +12%
because farming rate isnt increased but modified for less wood costs per food
from Horse collar.

The fuedal boomer gest a +22% increase raising his VS per minute to 2269
total capacity at the 17 minute mark.

The castler only gets the wheelbarrow and uses some of his villagers to make
forward bases. So if he uses 2 villagers for forward bases its 1440+10%=1584
VS per minute and its 1320+10%=1452 VS per minute production if he uses 4
villagers for forward building.

2 forward villagers give the Fuedal boomer a 30% better production rate and 4
forward villagers give the boomer a 37% better production rate over the
Castler.

What does all this VS translate too:

Unit Cost(VS)
---- ----
Villy 218
Spear 235
M@A 320
Knight 480
Archer 213
skirm 224
Ram 743
Mangonel 917
Scorp 464
Monk 290
LtCav/Scout 349
CA 334
Camel 414
Petard 408

---------------Buildings include BT in VS cost
Tower 537
Walls 20
Gates 130
Palisades 13

TC 1002
Castle 2256


This will give you an idea of what can be produced by each side per minute.
This of course assumes that the proper ratios of villagers on resources are
applied at all times, which never happenes. So based on villager ratios the
true VS can rise and fall for both sides. I stated the max to show potential
for both sides.

Example: The Fast Castler can build about 3 knights a minute, but the boomer
can build 10 spears a minute or 8 M@As with his increased production rates.
Looking at the VS cost of archers, you can really see why a flusher can build
so many with a weak econ. Because of their cheapness, I recommend build as
many as you can for fuedal defense against the Castle attack. Use the cheap
walls, towers and palisades to protect them from knights.

Rams also are a concern, but rams come at a steep 743 VS. The castler can
only produce 2 a minute in the early going. But the Boomer can produce 8 M@A
to protect himself from rams.

Now we understand that the Boomer has the production advantage. What about
tactical advantages.

The Boomer really has none. Tactically, the Castler has the advantages. He
has the ability to build TCs and Castles which can be build with villagers
out of Tower range and building still be in range. This is why its so
important to front any early building with Walls, heres why:

For the price of a Castle in VS you can get 50 sections of walls in VS, at
400 stone cheaper (which equals another 1200 VS). This means its WAY cheaper
to make walls to control your opponents attack by forcing him to attack
without the protection of his TCs and Castles, here he will encounter your
numbers advantage. Double up walls if need be and add towers with Cheap
archers backed up by spears and M@As to kill the rams. If he wants to take
down your walls, he will first need to build a TC or Castle in range of the
walls to protect his rams from your superior troop numbers, then you just
make another wall a few tiles back  By the time he gets through two walls,
you should be well on your way to castle but with a much bigger econ.

Even though the Castler has the tactial advantage, the Boomer can nuetralize
this advantage with smart production, smart resource gathering (to maximize
VS) and correct placement of defenses. Do not be afriad to move villager from
resource to resource as you need them. Maximizing your VS requires that you
do this. Your VS is your advantage.

Another good idea for tactical Fuedal defense against Castle attacks is to
build a stable or two and use small groups of scouts (rather cheap VS) to
find and kill villagers where possible. Especially if he is booming. Kill a
couple of villies and retreat before they garrison and kill your
scouts...rinse and repeat. FYI, upgrades scouts can kill villagers, plus
scouts can attack automatically, villys must be micro'd.

------------------

I'll post more on this after I expirement with build orders and such.

[This message has been edited by Aphroqueen (edited 08-11-2000).]


Tonto_Christopher
Forum Member posted 08-11-00 04:38 PM EDT (US)    2 / 8
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Always great and insiteful posts Aphroqueen!
This strategy sounds good, but I do think an quick castle would seriously
whomp this...


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GPA_Chooch709
Forum Member posted 08-11-00 04:37 PM EDT (US)    1 / 8
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i like the idea, however with TC coming out within 2 weeks, and petards
coming with it, that means that those palisades and towers wont hold up to
petards, and garrisoned rams with LS will bust them up...especially if the
enemy creates a really early castle attack...but on the otehr hand, you could
have the economy to counter that attack...i'd like to see it tested and hear
more aobut it afterwards...
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Strategies > Little Known Strategies of the Greats. #9
Topic:
 Little Known Strategies of the Greats. #9

Winston
Forum Member posted 08-11-00 11:12 AM EDT (US)
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For other LKSG in series, just do a search in this forum for Winston and you
get em all plus a few more gems.
Disclaimer: Standard one already mentioned in previous part of series.
Previously on LKSG:
Flanking
Cloning
Macros
Fear
Building(TC) defence.
Deer Herding.
Offensive Walling.
The Mobile Base

and now
#9. Critical Mass and ANTI Mass.

Now many subjects have been talked about on Critical massing your troops
before you hit an enemy thus improving your kill ability and saving troops.
This critical mass ability is throughout many threads. Building armies and
columns of troops usually help you roll over your enemy.

BUT lets talk about the Anti-Massing strats that you see in games of the
great. Koven, OOC_Malice, and many others I have seen using this. They may
not even know exactly it, but as I say, I refine techniques.

The idea is, multiple attacks on multiple fronts constantly. It is more of a
less focused attack and requires a good economy to do it in general. It
disrupts the enemies economy much faster than a straight power attack and you
can do small massings at times.

Wonder why the champ is so good? It is because of its ability to fight troops
and take down buildings. This troops is very good for this tactic.

Build barracks/archeries/etc in as many places as you can. Multiple Landings
where you drop a vill off and make a sstable and pop back in to build one
elsewhere is very often used in games with water.

You build and send troops around from each of these troop centers and you
send them in piecemeal. They will force the enemy on the defensive FAST. He
may be attacking you one place in force, but your 3-7 places are wiping out
his econ and he will have to be mobile basing or be dead.

This is used in a rush constantly. You are piecemealing thier vills but you
are causing him to lose econ as you go. You lose troops to defensive
bullworks easier this way, but thier econ is destroyed so you can mass an
attack too.

Some people do pincer attacks, but consider this the anti-mass attack. It
combines a flood type ability with total disruption of enemy economy.


Note: I have a small request of people. I collect and refine the techniques
BUT I fail to post recorded games or links to them. If someone as we go,
could post an example of this technique where THEY have seen it. Unless I
make an original strat I will not be posting recorded games.



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I know I can write on this computer screen somehow. Now to sign this
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[This message has been edited by Winston (edited 08-11-2000).]

Author Replies:

Winston
Forum Member posted 08-14-00 12:58 PM EDT (US)    8 / 8
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Lava_hound: We are a clan that has a ton of older family members. Cepting our
1 best player(a 13 year old) we are pretty much ranging from total newbie
father to low expert father.
TML - The Mage's Lair.
It is based on my MUD (Multiple User Dungeon) and using its resources to meet
etc. www.mageslair.net is the website.
My zone name is TML_Winston. Finding me may be a problem since the way our
clan works is we are a pretty much email driven games. ie: Game tonight? Wife
will let me.. anyone?

Send me email to:
admin@mageslair.cncdsl.com
OR
login to the mud and ask to see Winston. A lot of players on the mud dabble
in AoK too.

Some others to look for on the zone:
TML_Lord_Beep
TML_Magre
TML_Warpig
TML_Nevar

They tend to play a bit more. As long as ya dont mind playing team games with
newbies and experts in same game.. WE are cool (we attempt to even all games
out).



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I know I can write on this computer screen somehow. Now to sign this
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Lava_Hound
Forum Member posted 08-14-00 12:23 PM EDT (US)    7 / 8
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Thanks, Winston for these cool strats. Every little advantage helps!
By the way, what is your zone name and what clan are you in? I saw a post
where you mention your clan of guys with wives and kids and can only play on
weekend nights. And sometimes your wives want to play with you so you can't
play AOK. I fit your clan's member profile perfectly and would love a chance
to join. If you are accepting members, please let me know how I can join.

Thanks!


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(Don't have a signature yet.)

Jmmog
Forum Member posted 08-12-00 01:53 PM EDT (US)    6 / 8
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I'm enjoying the series! As a rookie, they are helping me get my game up to
speed much sooner.

Wrathstar29
Forum Member posted 08-11-00 07:20 PM EDT (US)    5 / 8
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Another good one!!
I use a similar strat when I'm playing the "protector" in multiplayer games.
Basically I build tons of units (usually champs and arbs) and send them
around on all sides of the map making the enemies focus on getting them away
from their villies instead of attacking. Sure, you lose tons and tons of
units to lack of management, and your military score goes way down, but you
manage to keep the fight on their side and allow the allies to do the pincer
version of warfare and clean everything off.


playa_playa
Forum Member posted 08-11-00 04:32 PM EDT (US)    4 / 8
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Once again, a clever and well-thought out post from Winston!!! Keep 'em
coming pleez!

Tonto_Christopher
Forum Member posted 08-11-00 04:26 PM EDT (US)    3 / 8
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Yet another incredible post from the Imperial Strategist Winston!
If at all possible keep em coming!

Bam!


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Come visit us at the Tonto clan and claim your knightly spurs!
www.geocities.com/tonto_clan


christbearer777
Forum Member posted 08-11-00 03:53 PM EDT (US)    2 / 8
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Winston, I have enjoyed reading these strats. It is nice to find some good
stratagies in here again. :-)
Tonto_Isbla


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But they that wait upon the Lord, they shall mount up with wings as eagles,
they shall run and not be weary, they shall walk and not faint. Isaiah 40:31
no Jesus, no peace KNOW JESUS, KNOW PEACE.
ICQ# 26053233
Zone- Tonto_Isbla
Heat.net- Isbla

IClan_Emporer
Forum Member posted 08-11-00 12:21 PM EDT (US)    1 / 8
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Again, wonderful post!
At the Archive, I'm busy converting all files to handy HTML Format, I've got
1-8 done already, and I'm working on the rest. If you can get some Recorded
Games of your strategies, I'll be happy to link to them from the files.

Truthfully, the Archive is not turning out what I wanted it to be. My
Original goal for the Age of Kings Archive and Age of Empires Archive
(Division of Content, still one site), was to have a Game Database, with
every unit, tech, civ, and building, and then the File Compendium, with the
Files, Strategies and Recorded Games. The idea is to make it a massive
interlocking web of pages, with links all around, for simple navigation. If
you're on the Teutonic Knight Page, you can easily flip over to the Teutonic
Civ, or Teuton-Related Strategies, and from there, you can go to Recorded
Games with these Strategies. It was a grand idea, but laziness prevailed, and
it's not how I wanted. Yet, I'm still working on it.

Anyway, I'll be happy to upload Recorded Games for you, and link to them, but
only e-mail them to me one at a time, since they're so incrdibly large.




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Justin Cass, IClan_Emporer, IClan_Emporer@Hotmail.com
For downloads and original content, visit the Age of Empires Archive.
Get Paid For Writing Opinions on Games like AOK & More at Epinions.

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Little Known Strategies of the Greats. #1

Winston
Forum Member posted 08-01-00 03:34 PM EDT (US)
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Okay, so you say to yourself "Is Winston claiming he is great?" Heck no, I
am, however, claiming that I play some and see some great strats that are
little known. I also comb the nets for gems of information. So..
The 1st little known Strategy:
The "Flank".

This is a really neat technique in which you can lower your loss rate and
increase your attack potential. This is a hard strat to get to work but the
potential to use this is great. I even hear (grapevine messages) that
Arch_koven uses this technique. Yep he is a Great one.

Basically, select a column of troops and when they are about to be pounced on
or attack, you set a "Z" patrol point just behind the enemy column. Then when
your troops hit the enemy troops hit "f" about 5 times a sec (depending on
speed of game) and you are flanking your enemy. This enables you to hit more,
while avoiding hits.

I did a little test myself. 40 Ezerks vs 40 Ezerks. I had 14 Ezerks left
after the encounter. The only thing I did different was flanking.

I then played with the speed at which you hit the "f" key. You CAN hit it too
fast It seemed and lower your hit rate. A Constant tapping on "f" will help
instead of super fast rate.

I am not exactly sure as to why this is the case. It has been slightly
discussed earlier. It could be a planed deal, or you confuse the AI by the
flanking. Either way, it makes you game just a little bit better.

If ya like this explanation, Ask for more. There are a few more Tips and Neat
strats that a few experts use.


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Author Replies:

Paralyticus
Forum Member posted 08-14-00 09:27 AM EDT (US)    10 / 10
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Hehe, I came across this fine tactic today in the Forum and I could not pass
without noting that while I never applaied this technique to hand to hand
units, I use a similar one that seems to do marvels against archers and
REDUCE the number of skirmishers needed.
Here goes:

Place the skirmishers in STAND GROUND or Defense stance.
Have all the skirmishers in a FLANK formation.
Finally, advance them to BEHIND the goup of archers.

Once there, just leave them alone, they will do their job nicely.


The fact is that archers miss a lot when firing at moving targets, so you
lose few skirms while they are on their way.
Once there, their A I is pretty good and (this is the secret of the
technique) ALL the skirms will be attacking. If you had them massed, the rear
ones would have to constatnty jockey around for getting range - losing HP and
precious shots in the process!

So, this is not the same tactic, in melee units your tactic works much
better, because the hitting of the formation key when well synchronized may
cause the enemy's attack to fall out of sync with the hits they receive -
like: you hit, he hits, but when he is hitting you move. Clever.





Winston
Forum Member posted 08-14-00 08:46 AM EDT (US)    9 / 10
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I appriciate it, I promised the rights to ICLAN_emperor. You must ask him.
I only reserved the rights to post it on clan site and here. I have no
problem with it myself, but first come first serve. IF IClan does not post it
within a reasonable amount of time I will take back rights (we can do that).
Until then, sorry.

I am glad you enjoy. You can do what I did for simple reasons. Do a search
for Winston and little known. Take that link and post it. It will pop you to
here with the entire strategy series  that way you can post your link.


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tonto_real
Forum Member posted 08-11-00 10:38 PM EDT (US)    8 / 10
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Very interesting!
I've been reading your series, more appropriately called little known tactics
with great interest... through and to include #9 now. I thnk you are doing an
important service to the Ager community by continuing this series... and I
respectfully request your permission to also post these tactics to Tonto
Clan's forums.


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tonto_real, Emperor by acclamation, TONTO EMPIRE
(What's "tonto" mean?);)

for yor "Knightly spurs" JOIN US! TONTO EMPIRE @
http://www.geocities.com/tonto_clan/enter.htm


Winston
Forum Member posted 08-03-00 03:38 PM EDT (US)    7 / 10
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Have ya tried it yet? very hard. basically when you set in patrol mode they
fight what ever is near. Now, you set a patrol point behind them and hit F
constantly. They are fighting, and now the F changes thier formation or
FLANKS them. this causes them to look like they are running in and out. Think
of it as they are trying to Flank around the other person and everytime you
hit F you move them off to thier opponents side. This means that the opponent
is always catching up to them and you are always hitting the opponent on the
side.
I hope this helps, or was it obvious?


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I know I can write on this computer screen somehow. Now to sign this
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Captain_N
Forum Member posted 08-02-00 07:27 PM EDT (US)    6 / 10
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Well, I thought this strat was just running in and out, not going to the
back.

Winston
Forum Member posted 08-02-00 04:59 PM EDT (US)    5 / 10
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I disagree with ya there.
Why could not flanking your enemy be a strat? always running around to hit
him in the back? I think that is a valid strat. It is not a "flaw" in the
game unless ES admits that Flanking aint supposed to work.

Now, having ships build buildings... is a flaw.


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I know I can write on this computer screen somehow. Now to sign this
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Captain_N
Forum Member posted 08-02-00 04:34 PM EDT (US)    4 / 10
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This is not a strategy. It is just a cheap little flaw in the game that
reduces battles to nothing more than pushing "F".
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Member of the tonto clan.
The only thing funnier than a clown choking someone is a clown being choked.


Winston
Forum Member posted 08-02-00 12:55 PM EDT (US)    3 / 10
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The goal of this "series" is NOT to take credit since I dont. It is to bring
to forefront some Advanced strats that make you BETTER.
Grats to U_Gonna_Die then for making this. I collect gems of information and
will put them together. Remeber its the LITTLE things combined that make a
big WIN.


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I know I can write on this computer screen somehow. Now to sign this
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Pantheon
Forum Member posted 08-02-00 11:55 AM EDT (US)    2 / 10
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This is the same thing as the Patrol attack tactic posted and "developed" by
U_Gonna_Die
...and it does work against people on the zone... I have done it against a
zone player 10 paladins (fully upgraded against 10 paladins (also fully
upgraded). Even with my enemy attempting to micromanage his attacking
paladins, I was able to beat him with an average of 5 of my paladins left
(tested it 15 times)

Pantheon


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Unfortunately, my knowledge far outseeds my ability!
Member of Team Anarchy
Zone Name: NRK_HotPants


Khaleb
Forum Member posted 08-02-00 07:25 AM EDT (US)    1 / 10
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I heard about this some times now and people always speak about tests, but
those tests were evidently done against the computer. I dont know how much
this technique would be an advantage against a human player who would direct
his units although not knowing this zffff trick. I just dont get the real
mechanics of it, and in which unit-confrontations is it effective and in
which not (cavalry against archers? I always have a problem with usind
cavalry properly against massed archers and see my enemies having the same
prob with my archers, thanks God).

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Cavalry Archer Primer

RF_Gandalf
Forum Member posted 07-24-00 08:41 AM EDT (US)
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CAVALRY ARCHER PRIMER
For all intents and purposes, in AOK:TC we have another new unit besides the
Hussar, Halberdier, Petard and Eagle Warrior: The Cavalry Archer. So much has
changed about this unit that it deserves further analysis. I will describe
the basic CA, changes for the CA, attempt to rate the CAs among the civs, and
then discuss tactics.

**********************************************************

The Basics

Cavalry Archers are fast, mobile missle-firing units which are relatively
lightly armored compared with Knights. Currently they are the second-fastest
mounted unit, just slower than the Light Cavalry (but faster than Scout
Cavalry), and faster than the Camel and Knight lines. Cavalry Archers benefit
at present from the three archer attack/range upgrades and the three archer
armor upgrades available at the Blacksmith. Cavalry Archers have no real
bonus against other types of units.

The only listed changes in the basic CA for AOK:TC are a faster rate of
production from its source, the Archery Range, and a faster rate of movement.
The details on these improvements are still pending. There are also 3 new
techs that will effect the strength and performance of the CA:

*** Thumb Ring- improves the accuracy from 50% to 100% (and may improve the
Rate of Fire)
*** Bloodlines- gives all mounted units 20 more hitpoints
*** Parthian Tactics- adds 1 regular armor and 2 piercing armor for CAs(and
Mangudai also, I believe)

In the current AOK, CAs are too inaccurate to do enough damage to military
units, too fragile to survive fire from towers, castles, and ranged units or
stand up to any melee unit for long, and too weak to damage buildings
significantly. The above new techs improve their accuracy and fragility. The
Parthian Tactics will greatly help reduce damage from Skirmishers, Archers,
and ranged building fire, while Bloodlines will help with longer survival
against archers or melee units. Note that the increased 20 HP is still less
than the damage from a single pike hit, so special care must still be taken
against these cavalry-killers.

The stats of the Cavalry Archer, as found in the game manual, are:

*** cost 40W, 70G
*** base HP 50
*** base attack 6(one more than Crossbowman, the Castle Age foot archer
equivalent)
*** range 3(two less than Crossbowman)
*** base armor 0/0

When improved with Bloodlines, Thumb Ring, two archer attack/range upgrades,
and two armor upgrades all available in Castle Age, the unit's stats look
somewhat better:

*** HP 70
*** attack 8
*** range 5
*** armor 2/2

Ballistics is also a research needed to make the CA an effective unit,
otherwise many of the shots against moving targets will miss. The combined
cost of all these upgrades to make a viable Castle Age fighting unit is then
1000F, 575G, 550W, though virtually any civ who gets Bloodlines, Thumb Ring
and Ballistics is going to research them for other units as well, so perhaps
it is not fair to count the cost of these upgrades only against Cavalry
Archers.

To upgrade to Heavy Cavalry Archer costs 500 F, 900G. The stats of the basic
Heavy Cavalry Archer are improved, but let's look at the stats of the above
CA that has all the Castle Age upgrades then is upgraded to HCA:

*** HP 80
*** attack 9
*** range 6
*** armor 3/2

Next, adding Bracer, Ring Archer Armor, Chemistry and Parthian Tactics adds a
cost of 1050F, 900G, and gives a fully upgraded unit with these stats:

*** HP 80
*** attack 11
*** range 7
*** armor 5/6

Again, Chemistry is researched for other units as well and the cost shouldn't
really be ascribed solely to CAs.

*********************************************************

Counters

Cavalry Archers have many enemies. Several units have an attack bonus against
them. Skirmishers, Pikes and Camels all are effective counters due to their
bonus attacks against CAs, but of course must be able to catch them! Although
they have no bonus, several other units are quite effective against CAs,
including the Knight line, the Light Cavalry line, Archers, Onagers, and
buildings firing arrows.

Of course, the counters to the CA have been changed in AOK:TC also. There are
now Halberdiers as an upgrade of Pikemen. Hussars, while not any faster than
Light Cavalry, have increased HP and faster rate of attack. Camels have been
improved in general, and have also been made slightly faster. Archers and
Skirmishers both also benefit from Thumb Ring. The new Eagle Warrior will
have the speed to try to close with CAs and the piercing armor to survive a
while. The new Plumed Archer will likely also be a unit that fares well vs.
CAs due to their low cost and piercing armor. The Knight line for some civs
will benfit from Bloodlines and therefore will be a stronger opponent as
well. Also, Bloodlines improves the Camel and Light Cav. lines as well for
those civs which get it.

Of these counters, the most dangerous if allowed to reach the CAs is the
Pikeman line because of its large bonus against mounted units. These are the
easiest to avoid by hit-and- run tactics. The mounted foes are the most
dangerous to even well-managed CAs because of their ability to pursue, and in
the case of the Light Cavalry line, even overtake the CA. I believe that we
will see a big improvement in the ability of upgraded CAs vs. Archers,
Skirmishers, Towers and Town Centers due to the increase in piercing armor
from Parthian Tactics, so that a few shots from arrows will no longer quickly
end a raid.

********************************************************

Rating the Cavalry Archer by Civ

Not all Cavalry Archers are created equal. Several civs get excellent units,
a few get average ones, a few are not really worth making, and of course
Aztecs and Mayans do not even get this unit. Of course, looking closely at
the stats of the Mayan Plumed Archer, one realizes that it might try to fill
this same role, though it is slightly slower. At the top of the rankings are
6 civs with great CAs, but due to different tech distribution and civ
bonuses, none of these are identical. It is a matter of some debate as to
which is really the best. I will try to rate these as fully upgraded for each
civ.

The Huns and Mongols each lack only the Ring Archer Armor upgrade but each
gets a very important civ bonus for their CAs. The Huns CAs are significantly
cheaper, 25%, and the Mongol CAs fire 20% faster, giving them each an
advantage matched by no others. This brings up the argument of whether a
cheaper unit is better than one with greater attack, similar to the question
of Goth vs. Japanese infantry. From a tactical sense, the Mongol CA is
clearly best, since whenever possible greater attack at any point confers an
advantage. If time constraints or a pop limit allow, for example, sending
only 4 CAs on a mission, Mongols will be better than the Huns. From a
strategic viewpoint, being able to 'flood' with a cheaper unit could be an
advantage, or if not butting up against a pop limit, being able to send more
numbers of a cheaper unit at one time can be better. Or, early on when
resources are limited, you may be able to send 8 Hun CAs when you could only
afford 6 Mongol ones. So I conclude that although different, these 2 civs
have the 'best' CAs.

The Saracens and Turks are the only civs with all of the available upgrades,
so one might argue that these are the best. Since the Saracens get the only
other civ bonus for CAs (+3 attack vs. buildings), technically they are the
most complete. However most feel that the Hun and Mongol bonuses are so much
better that the lack of Ring Armor is negated. The Saracen civ bonus, because
of the weak attack of archers vs.buildings in general, has been greatly
ridiculed, but may have one limited use as noted in the Tactics section.
Because of this civ bonus, the Saracens rate slightly above the Turks.

Slightly below these four civs are the Persians, lacking only Bracer, to give
them one less in attack and range but still with full armor and HP, and the
Japanese, lacking Bloodlines, to give them a CA with 20 less HP than the best
ones but with full armor, range and attack. The difference between 1/7 lower
range and 1/11 lower attack for the Persians vs. 25% less total HP for the
Japanese suggests to me that overall the Persians have a little better unit.
Only slightly lower are the Chinese and Spanish, who have all old archer
techs, Thumb Ring and Bloodlines, lacking only Parthian Tactics. This means
thir CAs only lack 20% regular armor and 33% piercing armor compared with the
standard, fully upgraded unit. Below these are the Byzantines and Koreans,
who get all old archer techs and Thumb Ring, missing both Parthian Tactics
and Bloodlines, to give them accurate, powerful CAs but with no improvement
in the basic fragility of this unit.

All of the other civs, in my opinion, should not even bother to make CAs. The
Goths could make one with all old archer techs beefed up by Bloodlines, but
it would still be very inaccurate without Thumb Ring. The Vikings are the
only one of the rest of the civs to get Thumb Ring, so they could make an
accurate CA, but they do not have the HCA upgrade, Bloodlines or Parthian
Tactics, so would be very limited in ability. Others are also missing various
needed techs and so should concentrate on their own strengths.

********************************************************

Tactics

Cavalry Archers have 2 main roles in this game. The first and most important
is as a raider to disrupt the enemy economy by targeting villagers. This can
be done solo, or even better in conjunction with other fast moving units,
such as the Light Cavalry, Knight, or Camel lines. With upgrades, the CA will
be able to get in range of vills quickly, past towers or castles or other
defenders(watch out for walls, of course!) and do enough damage quickly
without automatically dying to justify their use. An added bonus in AOK:TC is
that Town Center range has been decreased, further protecting these raiding
units. The reason to combine forces, naturally, is to protect units from
their counters.

In raiding, the units combined with CA should be a mounted unit for speed. As
noted above, there are 3 main combos to use with the CA in raiding:

***CA plus Light Cavs(& Hussar)-This has the advantage of lower cost, better
LOS, a faster unit, good vs. archers and monks especially. Using food only,
building LCs compliments building CAs. Disadvantage is that the LC is more
fragile than Knights.

***CA plus Knights-This has the advantage of being the strongest
complimentary unit, and can hold off melee units better from your CAs. The
disadvantage is the cost(Gold!), less LOS, and increased vulnerability to
monks.

***CA plus Camels-This has the benefit of being the best to use against a civ
likely to try to counter you with LC or Knights, since the camels will
quickly take down cavalry with their bonus attack. Only four of the top CA
civs can do this; the Huns and Japanese do not get Camels. Only 2 of the
second tier CA civs can do this; the Spanish and Koreans do not get Camels.
The Camel, however, is more vulnerable to the Swordsman line and to Archers
than is the Knight. In the X-Pack, Camels may be in general a better unit due
to Bloodlines and to taking less bonus damage from Pikes. The Saracens, with
their UT giving an extra 30 HP to their Camels, will benefit most from this
and this combo might well make up a major part of a Saracen army.

Just a quick note about some other possible unit combinations using UUs. The
Huns can combine the Tarkan with CAs, possibly the most deadly raiding force
because of the Tarkan's bonus against enemy buildings. The Mongol could
combine Mangudai with CAs, targeting the Mangudai vs. siege whenever
possible, but this is not as flexible a combo as these others. The Spanish
can combine CAs with Conquistadors(again not flexible as both play a similar
role), Missionaries(which could heal your units as you go), plus the standard
cavalry as above. The Saracens could combine CAs with the Mameluke for their
special ranged melee support and anti-cavalry bonus. All of the above UUs are
costly, however, compared with Light Cavs.

The cavalry with your CAs will help protect them from any skirms or archers,
while the CAs help protect cavalry from pikes (another change in AOK:TC is
that archers do more damage to pikes, so this may be easier). All of this of
course takes a lot of micromanagement to keep the proper units targeting
against their intended foe, and to keep the enemy pikes or cavalry from
closing with your CAs. Of course, as CAs are one of the fastest units in the
game, they can play hit-and-run against almost any pursuing unit, given
enough manuvering space. Never send your CAs off to a distant point without
keeping them under close watch, or they can soon be lost.

The second main role of the CA is as support troops for a main force of melee
troops, similar to other archers. They are generally not as good as other
archers for this role because of their shorter range, but again with
micromanagement they can be kept out of harm's way better than other archers
(due to their speed) so there is somewhat of a trade-off. They do have a +1
atack as compared to similar foot archers, which may be useful. They should
always be kept to the rear or flanks of an engagement to protect them,
because of their cost and relative fragility, but this may not be quite so
crucial with the Xpack changes. In a late game situation with plenty of
resources, those civs who get great CAs may want to consider using them more
in this situation.

A smaller role for the CA is with harrassment or diversion tactics. These can
draw off enemy troops toward a waiting ambush of an onager or garrisonned
castle or toward a group of counters for the pursuing troop type. The
retreating CAs can quickly turn and help destroy their pursuers. This of
course works best against the computer or against untended troops on
aggressive stance.

Another use of CAs is that of scouting. I would not send them out only for
this purpose, but during raids the enemy base should be checked to find out
their defenses, unit types, preparations for battle, etc. Because they are a
ranged unit, their LOS is greater than most mounted units except for the
Light Cav. line.

A special use for Saracen CAs can be considered. While on a raid in an enemy
farming center, once all nearby villagers are dead or garrisonned and before
any pursuit catches up, the Saracen CA can try to make quick work of several
enemy farms. By concentrating the fire of all of the units on one farm at a
time, the Saracen civ bonus could help destroy more of the enemy food
economy. This is still somewhat slow, may only be of limited use, and is not
worth losing your CAs to enemy retaliation over. You are still better off to
retreat and hit elsewhere quickly in the face of determined resistance.

One caveat needs to be made about Cavalry Archers. They are most effective
when played in games against the computer opponent, over a LAN, or
modem-to-modem. When played in a Zone game, or any game with lag, the
manuverability of this unit is limited, and the ability to hit-and-run
quickly or the ability to escape from advancing danger is greatly hampered.
Lag is the main reason many players have not used Cavalry Archers to any
degree.

*********************************************************

Conclusions

With the changes made in the Cavalry Archer for AOK:TC, it should be a more
viable, widely used unit. Unless you are afraid to learn new skills or try
civs other than the easiest ones, you should learn to use this effective
raider and support unit.

Please feel free to make corrections or add constructive criticisms as you
see fit. I will edit this to make any changes needed or add additional info.
If appropriate, I will add your name at the end here as a contributor if your
material is added.


Thanks to BlakNite_JNK for recommending scouting as a use for CAs.
Thanks to Eumaies for recommending Camels as a unit combo with CAs(how did I
miss that?).


[This message has been edited by RF_Gandalf (edited 08-10-2000).]

Author Replies:

Eumaies
Forum Member posted 08-14-00 03:11 AM EDT (US)    26 / 26
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Hey Templar, i've been finding that mamelukes with zealotry make great
raiders, because they're tougher than the cav archers and get 100% accuracy
for free, and are good against enemy cavalry. camels go along to take hits
too...
Horse archers are alittle redundent for saracens, i guess, but are probably
much better against infantry, even if they're slightly less durable as
raiders. With people playing the new world civs, mamelukes are better cause
they beat eagle warriors. But cav archers beat infantry better, so for an all
out mounted attack force, i think the cav archers may be a good investment.
Good thing normal camels are cheep, cause these are expensive troops to
consider!



Knight_Templar
Forum Member posted 08-14-00 01:54 AM EDT (US)    25 / 26
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Hey guys, what's your thoughts on Mamelukes as raiders? Is it worth the
Saracen making both Mamelukes and CA's in a game?

Eumaies
Forum Member posted 08-13-00 01:49 PM EDT (US)    24 / 26
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Lol, tonto real you did exactly what i was just about to do.  There's barely
any strategy on this strategy board lately, it sucks.

tonto_real
Forum Member posted 08-13-00 05:47 AM EDT (US)    23 / 26
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to the top

tonto_real
Forum Member posted 08-10-00 01:21 AM EDT (US)    22 / 26
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RF_Gandalf
Thank you... I had thought to let the thread run its course anticipating that
you would "update" it as you did the Xpac Fact Sheet.


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tonto_real, Emperor by acclamation, TONTO EMPIRE
(What's "tonto" mean?);)

for yor "Knightly spurs" JOIN US! TONTO EMPIRE @
http://www.geocities.com/tonto_clan/enter.htm


RF_Gandalf
Forum Member posted 08-09-00 02:17 PM EDT (US)    21 / 26
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Thanks for the responses.
Eumaies:
I agree that combining Camels with CAs will be another option, and I will
amend my post to include this.
I think that the basic strat will be to make your CAs as quickly as possible
on hitting Castle Age, out of 1 or more Ranges, then as they are sent off to
raid, hit the Thumb Ring upgrade.

Porox and Eumaies:
I deliberately left out discussion of Mangudai, obviously the best CA, so as
to focus on the CA as a separate unit. Porox has done some excellent analyses
in the past on the preferential use of Mangs over CA when playing as Mongols.
While I agree with his past posts for the most part, I think that if the
Mongol wants to get the earliest possible raid, taking advantage of the rapid
advance to Castle possible with this civ, then the CA is the way to go early
on. It is possible to have a couple Ranges up with adequate resources on
hitting Castle to pump several CAs from each and head for the enemy town,
hopefully arriving before they have much of a defensive presence(maybe even
before Castle Age)(and researching Thumb Ring and Blacksmith upgrades on the
way). All of these upgrades are beneficial for the Mang. as well if they are
to be used later on, but having to build a castle first is a real drag on the
speed aspect of this attack.

SwiftAero and MECHANIC:
I don't underestimate the Spanish CA at all, and am anticipating using the
Missionary with a group of Conquistadors and Knights and/or LCs as a mobile
'Panzer Group' capable of taking on all comers. If the Spanish did not get
the Conq., then the CA would do nicely with this force instead. However, the
Conq. gets a much stronger attack and would be preferrable. I have thought
about throwing in some CAs to this grouping, to speed up production out of a
wider variety of buildings. The drawback is the cost of eventually upgrading
to HCA plus Elite Conq. if you plan on continuing with this type of force
into Imp. Age.

Darkman:
I would almost always try to include LC or Knights as a part of the raid if
possible to be able to counter Skirms and Archers, Knights could also handle
M@A as needed too. Of course, an initial raid with only CAs in early Castle
may be quicker to launch, depending on what buildings you have up and what
upgrades are done.

Tonto_real:
Use this however you like. I will be upgrading it based on responses, so it
is not a finished product yet!

Also, the pop. balancing will not affect lag on the zone. Pop. balancing is
only to make the game balanced as to the units' relative strength and cost
and has nothing to do with how slow someone's computer chugs along handling
many units or how slow someones' internet connection is.


Darkman
Forum Member posted 08-09-00 11:10 AM EDT (US)    20 / 26
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The Huns are going to be very scary in early castle. I believe it would be
foolish for a Huns to not go on the attack early. The Huns will fit my style
of play very well because I always seem to mine gold a little too early (thus
having excess gold in early castle- if that's possible). With the housing
bonus, I will be able to build 2 or 3 archery ranges early. Additionally,
with he speed of the cav archer, there is no need to build "right on top" of
your enemy and risk having your forward base exposed.
I do have one question. . .when I go for the early CA rush, should I also
invest in the Lt Cav upgrade and a couple Lt. Cav to complement my CA? Or
should I try booming and econ upgrades at my home base? I see advantages to
both.


MECHANIC
Forum Member posted 08-09-00 10:44 AM EDT (US)    19 / 26
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Gandalf, I agree that this is a great summary of the Cavalry
Archer line but I think you underestimate the Spanish CA. With fast
Missionary units in castle, the Spanish will have a very good raider civ with
the ability to heal that is far better than the other civs you have
mentioned.

porox
Forum Member posted 08-09-00 09:18 AM EDT (US)    18 / 26
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A great post, RF_Gandalf, but have you considered whether
a Mongol player will spend 500 resources on Thumb Ring and
175 resources on an Archery Range to get powerful Cav
Archers, or will he spend 650 resources on a Castle to
get even more powerful Mangs?
Cav Archers have the advantage of being able to be produced
earlier than Mangs, but then again the Mongol player wishing
to build Mangs can first make a Stable and produce Knights
instead of Cav Archers. And long after the raid is under
way, the Mongol player can finally build an Archery Range
just to research Thumb Ring.



HERO
Forum Member posted 08-09-00 07:27 AM EDT (US)    17 / 26
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Yeah this is a great post RF_Gandalf.
But still even after all these updates to the cavalry acher I think inless ur
mongols or huns researching heavy cavalry acher will still be a waste. I mean
900 gold just for a unit that will still die easliy to lc(not to even methon
huskers).

Sorry for my bad spelling in the post(it's very late at night)

HERO


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Have no fear HERO is here!

tonto_real
Forum Member posted 08-09-00 05:16 AM EDT (US)    16 / 26
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RF_Gandalf
This IS without a doubt the BEST Unit Guide I have ever seen written to this
or any other forum. Wow!

A couple of thoughts:

Because the Xpac is balanced at 150 pop instead of 75 as is AoK... the game
may run with a little less lag on-the-zone than it currently does.

How about putting your CAs under Ctrl+# and sticking an Lcav into the group
in order to increase LOS while on a "raid"

I request your permission to put this article, your Cavalry Archer Primer, up
in Tonto's Hallowed Halls... as it is! While I have spoken with many about
the need for "speculation" prior to actually having the Xpac in our hands...
somehow I seriously doubt that much if anything is going to change with
regard to this.

Thanks for sharing a superb piece of work with all of us.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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tonto_real, Emperor by acclamation, TONTO EMPIRE
(What's "tonto" mean?);)

for yor "Knightly spurs" JOIN US! TONTO EMPIRE @
http://www.geocities.com/tonto_clan/enter.htm


Knight_Templar
Forum Member posted 08-09-00 00:40 AM EDT (US)    15 / 26
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Wow! Terrifc and informative article RF_Gandalf. Strategy has finally
returned to this forum!
Do you recommend CA's for a Saracen player? What I mean is couldnt you use
Mamelukes as raiders, they're only a little more gold each, and have a
stronger albeit shorter ranged attack? OTH Saracen CA's sure do look
impressive, since in addition to all the new techs, they already get all the
blacksmith techs, as you've mentioned.

Hmm, might be time to start practicing fitting CA's into my army composition
...


SwiftAero
Forum Member posted 08-08-00 09:47 PM EDT (US)    14 / 26
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RF_Gandalf,
This is an extraordinary post. Very well done. You're so detailed and
thorough. Where can I buy the book!

Any thoughts on missionaries and healing the CA's as they run about raiding
the enemy?

(Somewhere in your post 'atack' can be found ... should be attack.)

SwiftAero


Aphroqueen
Forum Member posted 08-08-00 08:58 PM EDT (US)    13 / 26
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I think any cav army that is fully backed by CAs will not be as easily
countered by pikes as mentioned. CAs waste pikes just as easy as pikes waste
LtCavs.
Evil combos for castle attacking are:

CAs + Pikes + couple mangonels.

CAs + LtCAv (because their resource costs compliment each other)

CAs + skirms


Although CAs are quite expensive compared to what you get by building a
knight, they are very strong once you get them in numbers and place them
behind screening troops. Their speed also allows them to surge forward and
hit the enemy causing some casualties, then retreat behind screening troops
to take up the battle order.

They'll come around in the Xpac, just as Gandalf says.

Mongol, CAs + LtCavs = pimp


the_basilisk
Forum Member posted 08-08-00 08:43 PM EDT (US)    12 / 26
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Excellent post Gandalf. Very informative.
I think that Mongols will have the best castle rush in the game - CAs, LCs
and foot archers for pikes. their imp army of Mangudai and Champs and a heavy
siege suppliment will help them finish off the best of players....


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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ICQ: 6037262
Winner of no awards whatsoever.
Zone: The_Basilisk_ APC_Basilisk GPA_Basilisk
~Elite Sponge Knight~
~GPA Leader~

Eumaies
Forum Member posted 08-08-00 05:13 PM EDT (US)    11 / 26
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Consider also that combining camels (which now suffer only 1/2 damage from
spears) with cav. archers makes a great super-fast raiding force, because
together they can really kill spears once you get that 100% accuracy, even
without hitting and running.

Eumaies
Forum Member posted 08-08-00 05:11 PM EDT (US)    10 / 26
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Great Great Great analysis, said just about everything that needs to be said,
i think. I would say mongols get another hidden bonus from cav. archers, in
that their UU benefits from all the upgrades you need to get to use them, and
can also take out siege, thus they have the best cavalry archer "force."
Economically early on, cav archers are great because they cost no food, but
you need at the very least the 100% accuracy tech to use them that early. I
wonder if that will be be worthwhile due to reduced range TC's, and fewer
TC's to worry about. I'm betting it will be, especially in team games where
you can go from town to town. .

RF_Gandalf
Forum Member posted 08-08-00 01:19 PM EDT (US)    9 / 26
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Since some people seem genuinely interested in strategy now....to the Top.

RF_Gandalf
Forum Member posted 07-28-00 10:34 AM EDT (US)    8 / 26
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The Cavalry Archer Primer has been updated, expanded, and made
"easier-to-read". Thanks for your replies.

BlakNite_JNK
Forum Member posted 07-24-00 01:45 PM EDT (US)    7 / 26
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I love raiding with cav archers. even with the lag, I get a efficient raid.
send ur scout into the base during feudal(if it's dead, make a another one,
even if it means slower advance to castle. I usually have two scouts
partolling on the map during caslte to find those pesky fowarders.grrrrr)
when you know where ur opponents is gathering ressources (gold,wood, gold,
stones, did I mention gold?). Either target the gold, or the wood cause
there's usually a lot of vils there. If there's a castle, stay aways form it,
if there's a towers, stay away from it. If you see farms, RUN RUN RUN LIKE
WILD!!! farms are usually outside towncenters. usually, if my opponent don't
have a counter yet, I park just outside of the farms/tc's range, if he ever
comes back, I shoot him. if he sends knights, run home, with swordsmen and
pikes waiting for him. He'll run away. Have ur monk heal ur calv archers, and
repeat.
Another advantage of raids, other than economy bashing, is that u can scout
around to find out what kind f army the other guy is building. If u see three
stables and no archery range, pikes my friend, pikes!

Oh yeah, be sure to upgrade archery attacks. I don't find defense that
important. killing those villies r ur first priority.

------------------
"Battle doesn't need a purpose; the battle is it's own purpose.
You don't ask why a plague spreads or a field burns.
Don't ask why I fight."

-Black Knight-


Sarmis_Zeke
Forum Member posted 07-24-00 01:26 PM EDT (US)    6 / 26
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"When played in a Zone game, or any game with lag, the manuverability of this
unit is limited, and the ability to hit-and-run quickly or the ability to
escape from advancing danger is greatly hampered. Lag is the main reason many
players have not used Cavalry Archers to any degree."
BINGO!!

I've been trying to work more CA's into my play on the Zone thinking they
will be cool when TC comes out. What a nightmare. First, they are so slow to
make.... wait they will change that... o.k. So, I fianlly get some up and
running and my "raids" go like this:
WoooHooo saddle up boys
Pillage the village, pillage the village!!
Swoop in shoot 'em up.. woohoo
ok now they're headed for the TC
run away....run away......RUN AWAY!!... Ahhhhhhhh!
6 dead CA for for 2 villagers

Not very effective.

It will be great if somehow, something in TC makes it run a little smoother
or less "laggy" on the Zone, but I doubt it. Perhaps with the "TC fix" there
will be fewer TC's on the map giving you a little more "raiding room".
"Raiding" can work and be effective at times, but you're better off at this
point in time making long range sit and shoot stuff and/or cheap "mass" units
to just throw at the enemy and "flood them".

Anyway, good post and here's to hoping CA and "raiding" will become more
effective.




RF_Gandalf
Forum Member posted 07-24-00 12:16 PM EDT (US)    5 / 26
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Saracens have a 1+ team bonus of foot archers vs. buildings.
They have a 3+ civ bonus of cav archers vs. buildings.


col2eY the BolD
Forum Member posted 07-24-00 11:56 AM EDT (US)    4 / 26
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i thought the sarecens bonus was +1 not +3??...i could be wrong

Christopher The Great
Forum Member posted 07-24-00 11:14 AM EDT (US)    3 / 26
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Thanks for sharing Gandalf that is one hell of a post

Black_Hordes
Forum Member posted 07-24-00 09:04 AM EDT (US)    2 / 26
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Thanks RF_Gandalf, this such a good post!
Btw, Cav.Archers (esp. Mangs.)has always been my most favourite unit in the
AOK even since the game first came out.

------------------
"In the face of a strong opponent, they would more often than not withdraw.
This maneuver was often interpreted as implying cowardice and lack of
strength. In reality, the Mongols wanted the opponent forces to pursue them,
and thus expose their weaknesses."


Cobra2000
Forum Member posted 07-24-00 08:49 AM EDT (US)    1 / 26
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Wow, this deserves an award! Congrats!
I hereby present you, RF_Gandalf, with my Super Duper Great Post Award!

KEEP POSTING!

------------------
These members have won my Super-DUper Great Post award:
Sting62, icewall, WoollyMammoth, yin26
What are my qualifacations, you ask? Well, I'm a recipetent of ...
ROR_Sir_William's Nuclear Flame Post Award

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Traped!

jono7
Forum Member posted 08-13-00 03:29 AM EDT (US)
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Yesterday I was playing turks on a highland map. My stratergy was the
handcannoner, pikeman, treb trick (I was versing a rook). I suceeded in
demolishing his walls and towers, then on the advance I found nothing in the
town, bar buildings. Then from all the town gates poured in pals and cavalry,
my cannoners were scattered in no time and I was loosing them as I tried to
reform the lines, the pike men didn't last long and I found that on retreat a
villager had re-built the section of wall that I had busterd. Cornered I
fought back, but with little head way. A little later in the game I formed a
counter army of pikes and cav archers and treb's. This time I crushed him. I
was aondering if anyone has hade the same experience, and if so, how to
counter it, and possibly inform me on how to keep my proven stratergy of
cannoners, pikemen and trebs.
Thanks.
Author Replies:

Kel
Forum Member posted 08-13-00 11:05 PM EDT (US)    3 / 3
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Turks don't get pikes.
Were you using spearmen?

BlakNite_JNK
Forum Member posted 08-13-00 10:38 PM EDT (US)    2 / 3
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Neat strategie, I've never encountered it tho. all I can say is this: if u
attacked earlier, u wouldv know this, and he probably wouldn't have he's
walls+pals ready. You let him build up, dangerous thing to do.
But I doubt that this strategy would be effective often tho. to much
management and ressources to set up the trap and all. Tho it IS interesting.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
"Diplomats are just as essential to starting a war as Soldiers are for
finishing it. You take Diplomacy out of a war and the thing would fall flat
in a week"
Zone Name: _Steel_Dagger_, BlakNite_JNK



oreothecookie
Forum Member posted 08-13-00 03:41 AM EDT (US)    1 / 3
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ive never exerienced it and im too tires to think of a way of combating it
but it sounds like a sweet move
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TTFN
G'NIGHT
SLEEP TIGHT
DON"T LET YELLOW BEAR BITE

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Statistics on food gathering

Riley Man
Forum Member posted 08-09-00 11:40 PM EDT (US)
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I recently posted in the "Little known strategies of the greats #6" thread,
regarding some stats I found out about hunting deer. I'm following up on that
to give some info about sheep now. I'll probably reply to this thread in the
next couple of days regarding boars as well.
This thread illustrates how profound the natural process of food-rotting can
affect the amount of food you gather.

I thought it would be interesting to find out the differences in putting
different numbers of villagers per sheep to work. Here are the results:

Each sheep provides 100 food maximum (ie. no rotting). Villagers, in the dark
age, gather 10 food from a sheep before taking it back to a mill or town
center.

I used the Britons for this test. While the Britons do have a bonus on sheep,
this test can still be applied to other civilizations. The numbers will be
different, but the ratios should be the same.

In all cases, the villagers start standing right next to the sheep. The sheep
itself is just under one of the "hoods" of the town center, so that the
villagers only need to "stand up and sit down again" to deposit their food.
Times include the time it takes to kill the sheep.

1 Villager: Gathers 62 food in 2m45s. Loses 38 food to rotting.

2 Villagers: Gather 77 food in 1m36s. Lose 23 food to rotting.

3 Villagers: Gather 83 food in 1m10s. Lose 17 food to rotting.

4 Villagers: Gather 87 food in 0m53s. Lose 13 food to rotting.

5 Villagers: Gather 89 food in 0m46s. Lose 11 food to rotting.

6 Villagers: Gather 90 food in 0m40s. Lose 10 food to rotting.

7 Villagers: Gather 92 food in 0m37s. Lose 8 food to rotting.


Many opening strategies tell you to put your first six villagers on sheep.
This is definitely good advice. However, I would even take it a step farther.
Put your first 7 villagers on sheep. By the time they are working on the
second sheep, and the eighth villager comes out, separate them into two
groups of four.

Why? The stats above show that, given the usual 8 sheep you will find within
the first few minutes of the game, you will be able to finish all the sheep
and move on to deer and/or boars in well under 4 minutes. You will have
gathered nearly 700 food by this time (from sheep alone). That's enough for
13 to 14 villagers to be created, so you'll have a good stream of them coming
out by now.

If you leave only six villagers on sheep, working on them one at a time,
you'll have gathered slightly more food (about 710 to 720), but it will have
taken you almost 5 and a half minutes.

If you take it one step higher and put seven villagers on sheep, you'll
gather even a little more food (725 to 735), but it will still have taken
nearly 5 minutes.

And what about 6 villagers on sheep, in two groups of 3? This is a common
variation I've heard some people say they use. Well, it turns out this is
pretty bad. It takes almost as long as 7 villies working one sheep at a time.
And it only gathers about 650-665 food.

So there you have it. The optimal opening is villies 1 through 8 working on
sheep, in two groups of four! And remember to position those sheep right
underneath the town center as soon as they're needed. You'll have about 45-50
seconds (game time) before you need to bring the next two sheep in.

I might try this out with a different civilization to see whether the
Briton's sheep bonus affects this outcome.


Author Replies:

Riley Man
Forum Member posted 08-14-00 00:26 AM EDT (US)    19 / 19
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Ah I see. Yeah it can be tough the first 8 minutes or so with all that stuff
going on. I thought maybe you were doing what I used to do -- just sending
*all* the sheep to the town center and letting the villagers do whatever. Heh
heh man what a mess that caused.
When I first saw that trick of moving the sheep in one at a time, I couldn't
believe I hadn't thought of it before!


BlakNite_JNK
Forum Member posted 08-13-00 09:58 PM EDT (US)    18 / 19
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Riley Man
Just wanted to say thx for the email u sent me with the attachment, it helped
me a lil with the "shepherd-scatter" problem. I already know about the trick
where you move your sheep towards the vils. My problem wasn't micromanaging
my vils (I should have stated that way),it's just that my vils sometimes go
after the pile of sheep that are away from my tc when im busy doing something
else (scouting, building stuff etc.)  dang, have to work on my micro-managing
skills

But thanks for spending the time to send me the file tho. Highly appreciated


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
"Diplomats are just as essential to starting a war as Soldiers are for
finishing it. You take Diplomacy out of a war and the thing would fall flat
in a week"
Zone Name: _Steel_Dagger_, BlakNite_JNK


[This message has been edited by BlakNite_JNK (edited 08-13-2000).]


BlakNite_JNK
Forum Member posted 08-13-00 02:08 PM EDT (US)    17 / 19
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About the luring boar w/o loom, it's possible with the boars close enough to
the tc or a mill (preferable with the tc, so you can garrisson the poor
villie to safety ). I think it takes four hits from the boar to kill a villie
without loom, so those other vils better start firing those arrows. But
you're right about the 9-10 villies shooting the boar tho, a little less and
you end up losing a vil .
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
"Diplomats are just as essential to starting a war as Soldiers are for
finishing it. You take Diplomacy out of a war and the thing would fall flat
in a week"
Zone Name: _Steel_Dagger_, BlakNite_JNK



Riley Man
Forum Member posted 08-13-00 12:20 PM EDT (US)    16 / 19
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Hmmm something doesn't look right with some of those numbers... I may have
screwed up the results for 11 villagers -- it just seems like too big of a
jump from 10. I'm going to try it again to see if I screwed up.
EDIT: Nope, the numbers are right. There's a huge jump when using 11
villagers, and then only a small one using 12. Also note that one time while
using 12 villagers (which I did not include as a posted time), the villies
did not all fit around the boar! You run the risk, with more than 11
villagers, of your villies not sitting down in a perfect formation. I thus
recommend never using 12 villies -- you could end up screwing yourself.


[This message has been edited by Riley Man (edited 08-13-2000).]


Riley Man
Forum Member posted 08-13-00 12:17 PM EDT (US)    15 / 19
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Here are the boar stats. This is for a non-Mongol civilization. I'm just
about to do the Mongol stats on boar. After that I'll repost the deer stats
from the other thread, and re-do it for Mongols again.
It looks like I jumped the gun disagreeing with christbearer777. Sorry about
that!! Boars seem to be another natural food source where pairing it off
gives you more food in a shorter amount of time.

Boars provide a maximum of 340 food. That means 10 or more villagers will
only need to make one trip back to the town center.

In cases where I had fewer than 10 villagers, I tried to get the boar within
one tile of being under the town center. This gives them the ability to
stand-up and sit-down when depositing their food before the boar is finished.
For cases with 10 or more I wasn't quite as picky. In fact, it's better to
have the boar a tile or two away. Otherwise you run the risk of not being
able to have all those villies surround the boar.

In all cases, I counted the time starting from the point the boar was killed,
to the point all its food was used up. I did this because boars are often
different distances from the town centre. It wouldn't be fair to include the
time it takes to lure the boar.

5 Villagers : Gathered 283 food in 141 seconds (2.007 food per second),
losing 57 food to rotting.

6 Villagers : Gathered 291 food in 123 seconds (2.366 food per second),
losing 49 food to rotting.

7 Villagers : Gathered 297 food in 109 seconds (2.725 food per second),
losing 43 food to rotting.

8 Villagers : Gathered 300 food in 99 seconds (3.030 food per second), losing
40 food to rotting.

9 Villagers : Gathered 304 food in 89 seconds (3.416 food per second), losing
36 food to rotting.

10 Villagers : Gathered 307 food in 82 seconds (3.744 food per second),
losing 33 food to rotting.

11 Villagers : Gathered 311 food in 72 seconds (4.319 food per second),
losing 29 food to rotting.

12 Villagers : Gathered 312 food in 71 seconds (4.394 food per second),
losing 28 food to rotting.


From the above stats, you'll see that if you have 10 villagers total working
on boars, splitting them into two groups of 5 is optimal! You'll spend about
141 seconds of villager time, and gather about 566 food.
If you do the boars one at a time, you'd spend about 164 seconds gathering
614 food.

Now, that's almost enough food for another villager doing it one boar at a
time. But you have to consider that with the 23 extra seconds, your villagers
could be doing something else. I think it's a close call here whether you
take ~23 seconds over ~48 food or vice versa.

I'm going to go out on a limb here, though, and recommend that using 11
villagers, one boar at a time, would be even better. You gather 622 food
(definitely enough for an extra villager) in 144 seconds (only a few more
seconds).


Because these times don't include luring time, you'll have to perfect boar
luring within the rest of your activities. It would be nice to be able to use
your scout, but luring with the scout is tricky. Another possibility is to
use a villager who won't participate in the food-gathering process, to lure
the boar.

As for luring the boar w/ a villie without having researched loom... I don't
recommend it.  The only cases where this might work is if you plan to use 10
or more villagers attacking the boar. You'll kill the boar quicker, thus
lowering the chances of the boar killing you.



BlakNite_JNK
Forum Member posted 08-11-00 12:37 PM EDT (US)    14 / 19
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Excellent post riley man!
I usally put 8 vils on sheeps anyway, but after one sheep is over, I can't
seem to micromanage the vils, so they scatter and kill all of them sheep! I
lose food due to rotting this way.

I hope you post the boar stats pretty soon. I love boar(I play mongols) and
im practicing on luring boar without loom. I keep on losing 1 out of two vils
dang it!

Keep up the good work!


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"Battle doesn't need a purpose; the battle is it's own purpose.
You don't ask why a plague spreads or a field burns.
Don't ask why I fight."
-Black Knight-
Zone Name: _Steel_Dagger_, BlakNite_JNK

[This message has been edited by BlakNite_JNK (edited 08-11-2000).]


Riley Man
Forum Member posted 08-11-00 11:17 AM EDT (US)    13 / 19
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Zeth, in my opinion, put all six on the deer. You can find my post about deer
in the "Little known strategies of the greats #6", somewhere on the first
page. I'll probably repost the stats portion of it here soon.
But basically, here's why:

Deer give a max of 140 food. Villagers hold 35 food before carrying it back.
140 / 35 = 4. This way, 4 or more villagers always finish gathering the food
in *one* trip. Plus, you'll get a little more food out of it (due to less
rotting). And finally, since with 6 villagers you'll probably only gather
about 20-22 food each, they'll be finished faster, and therefore you'll have
the food in reserve faster.

christbearer777, I have to disagree. I'll be posting numbers on boars soon.
I don't have the exact numbers, but let's pretend it takes 1 villager 1
minute to gather the 35 food they hold. If you kill two boar as you suggest,
and put say 5 villagers on each, you'll get *less* food in the *same* amount
of time, plus your villagers will *still be working*. Whereas if you put all
10 villagers on one boar at a time, they'll be finished sooner and will
gather more food! I'll post the numbers on this tonite.


christbearer777
Forum Member posted 08-11-00 09:09 AM EDT (US)    12 / 19
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3 Mongol Villagers can clean out a deer in 1 trip. Due to there hunting
bonus, they do gather faster. Eat the sheep in your TC, to minimize lost
food. Instead of luring 1 boar at a time, kill one, then lure the other one.
So, you are eating both. You will get your food faster.
Use up your natural food sources, deer, boar, sheep before berry bushes. As
they are slower.

Tonto_Isbla


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Myll_Slaghter
Forum Member posted 08-11-00 07:00 AM EDT (US)    11 / 19
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Riley very good post, keep ut the good work
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quote:
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And those who boast most loudly that they know my thought, to such people I
lie even more.
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Check out The Myll Clans Homepage.
Http://www.hesbynett.no/sivlh/TM/

Zeth_Vedik
Forum Member posted 08-11-00 04:26 AM EDT (US)    10 / 19
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Riley,
Excellent post! I have a question about deer, if it has been answered b4 pls
be patient.
You have six vills in position to hunt a herd of deer (assume a mill or TC is
very close by). You have a couple of options, including:

1) have shoot 3 deer, then send 2 vills per deer to do the collecting;

2) all kill 2 deer, then send 3 per deer;

3) all six vills do one deer at a time.

Any idea which is the most economical method?
thanks!
ZV



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Education helps but it's never enough. You must also run.' -- Leto Atreides
II

Riley Man
Forum Member posted 08-10-00 10:33 PM EDT (US)    9 / 19
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I forgot to mention that it is much easier to manage 4 villies per sheep with
a non-Briton civilization. You'll probably always manage to find the next
sheep well before your shepherds finish their current tasks.
I kind of wonder if with the Britons, it might be better to use 7 villies all
on the same sheep. It'll take longer, but I think you'd still have a good
stream of villagers coming from the Town Center, plus you'll get about 40
more food out of it.


Riley Man
Forum Member posted 08-10-00 10:29 PM EDT (US)    8 / 19
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Back to post the numbers for sheep with a non-Briton civilization. This is
with the Franks this time. But it shouldn't make a difference if it's Franks,
Chinese, Mongols, etc. etc.
1 Villager: Gathers 57 food in 2m56s, loses 43 food to rotting.

2 Villagers: Gather 72 food in 1m52s, lose 28 food to rotting.

3 Villagers: Gather 80 food in 1m24s, lose 20 food to rotting.

4 Villagers: Gather 85 food in 1m06s, lose 15 food to rotting.

5 Villagers: Gather 86 food in 0m55s, lose 14 food to rotting.

6 Villagers: Gather 89 food in 0m48s, lose 11 food to rotting.

7 Villagers: Gather 90 food in 0m43s, lose 10 food to rotting.


Not being the Britons doesn't make much of a difference in terms of food loss
to rotting, once you get up to having 3 or more villagers work per sheep.

Again, I'm going to say that 4 villagers per sheep, with 8 villagers total,
is optimal. It takes a little under 4-and-a-half minutes to gather all the 8
usual sheep, and it should give you about 660-680 food total.

For the record:

3 villagers per sheep, with 6 villagers on sheep total. This takes over
five-and-a-half minutes to gather 8 sheep, giving probably 620-640 food.

7 villagers all on the same sheep at a time. This takes over five-and-a-half
minutes (a little longer than 3 villies per sheep with 6 total), giving
probably 700-720 food.



Riley Man
Forum Member posted 08-10-00 02:22 PM EDT (US)    7 / 19
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Heh I think a 13 minute castle time would only be realistic for the Chinese.
=) It takes 5 minutes during the two transitions, that leaves about 8 minutes
to make villagers and build your required buildings. It might be possible,
but it'd be tough for sure. I think without the Chinese you'd only be able to
make 14 or 15 villagers in the dark age.
I'll probably be trying out these stats on sheep without the Britons sometime
tonite.

I thought I'd give a little report though in the meantime. I tried to do this
in an actual game (vs. the computer), with 8 villagers in two groups on
sheep. I gotta say, it is tough with the Britons to manage. They go through
the sheep so fast that I had only found the first six sheep, before I had to
adapt and redirect those guys to a boar.

I think this is the reason so many people suggest six villagers on sheep.
What I don't agree with at all though, is splitting them into two groups of
three. You lose enough food for an extra villager by doing that.
All in all, I still think four per sheep is still best... as long as you can
adapt to what's going on. If you still haven't found the next two sheep, then
it's time to lure the first boar. Whether you do it with your scout or a
villager again will be determined by the situation -- if your scout is close
to the boar, go for it. Otherwise use a villager. By the time you've finished
the boar, chances are you'll have the next two sheep ready.

To answer some of the other questions here... I'm starting to think berries
are useless at least until feudal age. You'll then have enough wood to build
a second mill near the berries.

After sheep, I'd go for boars. Try to redirect two of your lumberjacks so
that you get 10 villagers working on the boar. (I'll be posting numbers on
boars later -- but basically, know that 10 is the optimal number) After
boars, go for deer. If you have shorefish, they might be good too (haven't
checked those out yet).


[This message has been edited by Riley Man (edited 08-10-2000).]


Winston
Forum Member posted 08-10-00 09:48 AM EDT (US)    6 / 19
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Elite Knights opening urges 3 per sheep. I like it. very well thought out.
keep this up, and we will have an easy 13 min castle time from rileyman


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I know I can write on this computer screen somehow. Now to sign this
signature.

agrajag
Forum Member posted 08-10-00 09:36 AM EDT (US)    5 / 19
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Thanks for all the info!
But what about all the other types of food. Recently i have been trying to
figure out which is the best strategy for dark\feudal food sources, but to be
frank, i cant figure it out.

My first 8 vils to go on sheep exactly the same as in your strategy. But once
the sheep run out, what then? Forage bushes are so slow its annoying, but if
i want farms i need to put vils on chopping.

Is it better to get a couple of vils on wood early and get some dark age
farming or stick alot on forage bushes, start going feudal and then go onto
farms? Right now my first 8 go onto bushes after the sheep have run out. Then
next six or so vils go on wood. Then i can start dark age farming, with all
new vils created on farms. The foragers then turn into boar\deer hunters.

What do all of you do? I get around 17-18 castle times with this and it
seeems good, but i cant get any faster. Plz give me some advice. Thanks.

Eumaies
Forum Member posted 08-10-00 02:14 AM EDT (US)    4 / 19
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Good post, and i've heard some good analysis on sheep-eating numbers before
but i just can't do it!  The way i see it, if i think i'm up against
opponents i can beat, why worry about the sheep food loss, and if i'm up
against tough opponents, i definitely don't want to be distracted when a
little thing like that gets messed up!(as it often will) So i try to do as
many villies as i can on a sheep, but they have a mind of their own, and i
don't fret over it.
But anyhow, good advice!



tonto_real
Forum Member posted 08-10-00 00:43 AM EDT (US)    3 / 19
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I would certainly like to see your result for a civ that had no bonus for
sheep. This is a very interesting and informative article which really piques
my interest. Please keep up the good work.
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tonto_real, Emperor by acclamation, TONTO EMPIRE
(What's "tonto" mean?);)

for yor "Knightly spurs" JOIN US! TONTO EMPIRE @
http://www.geocities.com/tonto_clan/enter.htm


Idle_villager
Forum Member posted 08-10-00 00:22 AM EDT (US)    2 / 19
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**** all them experts out there!!
I originally had a start where my first 8 hit sheep but they told me to
optomize my starts only 6 was needed. I now laugh at them

BTD_DEathTraP
Forum Member posted 08-10-00 00:05 AM EDT (US)    1 / 19
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Good post....nice work!

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The Mongols are now my Fav civ.

Sir Isaiah
Forum Member posted 08-10-00 02:29 AM EDT (US)
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Well,I played a few comp games with Mongols and for the first time I did a
Mid Castle rush with about 20 Mangudai.I was too late to stop him from going
Imp but I must've killed like 50 Vills and alot of Archers.(He was going for
an archer masse,most of that 50 vills I killed were Woodies,all grouped
together outside there base.I also killed quite a few farmers when a stupid
pikeman opened the gate for them.THey rushed in,killed the pike to say thanks
and proceded to wipe out farmers as they ran to there TC.It was SOO fun,I
love the Mongols now.His military never recovered from the blow and I won the
game once I had enough trebs to take down his base.I get my fastest Castle
with them,19 min.I just have to learn to put villies on Stone,I ALWAYS forget
stone.I can't wait to challenge some BF loveing rooks since I'm a rook and
cut through there forest walls with a bunch of Seige Onagers and then rush in
the Mangudai and Light Cav.Very cost effevtive really,seeing as though the
Mangudai cost twice as much as archers,but Light Cav cost no gold at all and
you get a huge speed bonus.
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I am what you'd call a Rennaisance man...
Author Replies:

BlakNite_JNK
Forum Member posted 08-12-00 10:26 PM EDT (US)    8 / 8
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Great guide Tonto_Andy (I probably should be posting in the other thread, but
I was in this one so..)
I read it back a while ago, and it's thanks to that that im a better mongol
player. Great cav line, great infantry, nice boats too(cannon galleon with
mongols??? oh, what the hey, im not complainning ) and I love that hunting
bonus. Mandugais are good too. Too bad I don't see much strategies with the
Mongols on the net

Plz Make more!





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"Diplomats are just as essential to starting a war as Soldiers are for
finishing it. You take Diplomacy out of a war and the thing would fall flat
in a week"
Zone Name: _Steel_Dagger_, BlakNite_JNK


[This message has been edited by BlakNite_JNK (edited 08-12-2000).]


Tonto_Andy
Forum Member posted 08-12-00 03:38 PM EDT (US)    7 / 8
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Since you like the Mongols so much, you might wanna read my guide:
http://aok.heavengames.com/cgi-bin/aokcgi/display.cgi?action=st&fn=1&tn=19227&
f=,,1,0
Enjoy!


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Freshly Reincarnated!

BTD_DEathTraP
Forum Member posted 08-11-00 08:46 AM EDT (US)    6 / 8
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Mongols are civ that was made for the single purpose of RAIDING. They are on
of the best raiding civs in the game. Because of their hunting bonus, a flush
and a fast castle are easy to pull off. I used to castle at around 17:30, but
yesterday I played mongols for the first time, and I Castled at about 15:45.
The hunting bonus is GREAT!

Zero
Forum Member posted 08-11-00 01:39 AM EDT (US)    5 / 8
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Those kind of attaks are all I ever do with mongols(although I rarely use
them). If you face a turtler then just let him sit there in his walls while
you patroll round him and kill anything that trys to get out. I know, you
turtles will say " that woun't work" But hey would you like haveing 20 em's
and 20 lcav running around your walls just out of reach? Now to kill him you
will need to make a huge attack.I suggest lost of rams and trebs, with
magundias along the wall firing inside. You are going to lose lot of guys but
you might break through. some things to be careful of.
1. take down b towers and trebs asap
2. be ready o rush in in full force if you break through.
3. out have to out boom him big time!


Sir Isaiah
Forum Member posted 08-11-00 00:14 AM EDT (US)    4 / 8
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Geez,SO much negative thought...I Know when and when not to use a mangudai
rush.The whole idea of it is to set back his econ,I aim for food ecspecialy
Cause those Mangudai didn't cost any food and I can make them cost the enemy
alot of food due to dead vills and dead farmers.I hit lightly defended areas
like outer farms and econ outposts wih Mangudai rushes and send them on a
mission to kill as many vills and military as possible.Once he starts turning
out SKirms or any kind of real defense I leave and heal up my Mangudai.I'v
been perfecting the strat and can pull it off at about the 30 min mark.I
castle at the 19 min mark.THere easy to use,and fun cause of the great seige
and lightning army.Course,Camels ARE a problem,I ran into them before.If I
see a Camel army I always retreat and get some pikes out there to intercept
pursuers.I do other attacks with the Mongols,I just find this one to be most
the fun when it works.
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I am what you'd call a Rennaisance man...

tex
Forum Member posted 08-10-00 02:35 PM EDT (US)    3 / 8
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tip:if you can get into there town circle around there farms and pick off
villagers
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Weisi the Great of Stavka
Forum Member posted 08-10-00 02:18 PM EDT (US)    2 / 8
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How would you deal with a Saracen Mameluke defence? Towers every where will
soon stop your Mangudai rush, hate to disappoint you but your rush is
dangerous and will not do well against a turtle player who has walls dotted
with towers and defensive trebs.
Although Mongols are a good civ to play for different reasons.
PS why not vote on my new message posted on this fine forum.
[This message has been edited by Weisi the Great of Stavka (edited
08-10-2000).]


Weisi the Great of Stavka
Forum Member posted 08-10-00 02:17 PM EDT (US)    1 / 8
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How would you deal with a Saracen Mameluke defence? Towers every where will
soon stop your Mangudai rush, hate to disappoint you but your rush is
dangerous and will not do well against a turtle player who has walls dotted
with towers and defensive trebs.

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I just got a great castle time, but..........

Sylvarus
Forum Member posted 08-12-00 08:47 PM EDT (US)
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I just pulled off a 15:32 castle time, but I had no military yet. I've been
concentrating on getting a better castle time, and now I've done it. Now I
need to know just when to start implementing military into the populous of my
kingdom. Any help is greatly appreciated. Feel free to e-mail me. Just check
my profile for the address.
Thanks again,
Rus


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Author Replies:

Zero
Forum Member posted 08-13-00 02:18 PM EDT (US)    5 / 5
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How about doing a medium sized boom and pump out some pikes and ls to counter
those attacks?

Captain_N
Forum Member posted 08-13-00 01:06 PM EDT (US)    4 / 5
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Now then, what happens if the enemy attacks with knights/rams at TWO TCs? The
knights will kill some villies before they get inside the TC, and the rams
will attack the TC. Before you even have a chance to garrison your villies,
the TC is wounded and you have lost a few villies - now you have a
half-garrisoned TC that is already wounded. And that's just the first one
that you get to. The second TC will be in worse shape!  If you ring the bell
at the nearest TC, your entire econ shuts down, so you can't do that. If the
enemy does this numerous times, then he can push you back until your sill
little boom is destroyed.

Sylvarus
Forum Member posted 08-13-00 01:33 AM EDT (US)    3 / 5
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Thanks for the help guys.
Rus


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Winner of Cherub Cheerful Chum's Official Coolest Newbie to the Forum Award
Winner of Fozbys Multi-Linguist Award
Winner of Firebird's Best Poet of the Forum Award
"I want to fly away."-Lenny Kravitz

BlakNite_JNK
Forum Member posted 08-12-00 10:04 PM EDT (US)    2 / 5
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Yes they can Micr0boy, usually with knights and rams . Of course, you can
counter that, but usually, the tc falls after being ramed too many times
IMHO, attacking during the early castle can disrupt the opponent enough to
win, and most people build knights (or at least SOMETHING) during the castle
age, so it's better if you have something prepared. And don't just let your
army sit there and do nothing; if the ennemy is not attacking, then scout him
and whack him him before he can do anything.

Hope this helps


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
"Diplomats are just as essential to starting a war as Soldiers are for
finishing it. You take Diplomacy out of a war and the thing would fall flat
in a week"
Zone Name: _Steel_Dagger_, BlakNite_JNK



Micr0boy
Forum Member posted 08-12-00 08:51 PM EDT (US)    1 / 5
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Its a shame really. If you took that castle time and boomed hard, you
wouldn't need ANY military until:
A) Your enemy reaches imperial

B) You reach imperial

All those TCs simply cant be cracked with castle age units.


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Zone name: micr0boy
The typing in this post is true. The words have been changed to protect the
innocent pronunciations.
Winner of ~duk's Hero of the Month Award~

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Idea: Mounted units in formation should get bonus trample damage

the man called Horse
Forum Member posted 08-11-00 03:48 PM EDT (US)
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I had to post this to protect my beloved horses from the Nutty_Monks proposed
Horse traps!  I'm not sure what other units get it already, but apart for
EWE's, I don't think any other units get trample damage. (Maybe Paladins?) I
think that all mounted units should get trample damage that increases
incrementally with an attack and trample bonus the more you group one kind of
unit together into formation. (like cavs, pals etc...)They should be allowed
to charge in formation, and attack in formation without breaking rank.
Perhaps this feature could be exclusive to only heavy cavalry like Paladins
or Cavs or a unique unit like those cool lance wielding guys (Master of the
Templar etc...) only available in the scenario editor. It would not only look
awesome, but imagine what two groups of 20 could do in split formation to a
horde of infantry who see them in formation pounding the turf together, one
group wheels to outflank and then they sandwich and collide from two ends. I
would imagine that an Effective counter would still be pikes massed in
formation, but Nutty_Monks idea of horse traps would then possibly, ever so
vaguely be warranted as an effective counter. This formation attack should
also be available only in Imperial, cost sh*tloads of gold and very slow to
reserch, train and form. IHMO This would allow for more strategic and
historically accurate use of heavy cavalry like the modern day tanks to blitz
right over the tops of infantry troops, defensive positions etc... This is
purely a hypothetical idea as I felt moved to counter the Nutty Monk's idea
of how to flay alive horses with horse traps, what do you guys think?
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"my kingdom for a horse..."
Author Replies:

Nutty_Monk
Forum Member posted 08-11-00 10:39 PM EDT (US)    4 / 4
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hmmmm...i repect your idea, Horse. But Heavy Cavalry like Paladins without
trample damage is already powerful enough dont u think Paladin will be too
powerful for the game with the trample damage?
Ok, maybe my horse-trap might able to balance the game.

Anyway, i really enjoy listening to other great fresh new ideas like new
units even the units thought are not going to be used in the real game itself.


Aphroqueen
Forum Member posted 08-11-00 07:59 PM EDT (US)    3 / 4
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In Real life, dispite having the Trample ability, even Heavy cavalry got
stopped cold by rows and rows of Pikes and Halberdiers.
So if you horses got trample damage in formation, Pikes and Halberdiers
should get bonuses against Cavalry when they are information.


Raz Dawson
Forum Member posted 08-11-00 04:58 PM EDT (US)    2 / 4
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ou can't have paladins and cavaliers in the same formation unless you
convert.

Sir Marf of Ans
Forum Member posted 08-11-00 03:51 PM EDT (US)    1 / 4
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The catraphact in the xpac with the UT will get trample damage so your little
horsey friends are saved! Plus if the paladin had trample damage, they would
be next to impossable to stop

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Japanese Newbie

Shogun Of The Dark
Forum Member posted 08-12-00 10:48 PM EDT (US)
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I am a new player to AoE. I recently got addicted, thanks to some friends who
enjoy kicking my @$$. My civ of Choice are the Japanese. I was hoping someone
might be able to give me some good tips for playing this civ. I was also
hoping for some good strategies against the Mongols.
Author Replies:

Rolling_Papyrus
Forum Member posted 08-13-00 02:54 AM EDT (US)    4 / 4
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The Japanese actually rock WHEN they can fish. You can solve most problems in
the AoK world with champions and the Japs have the best or second best. They
get fully upgraded Arablasts, Hand Cannoneers and Monks to help the infantry
and have a good navy.
They are missing most of the late game economic techs which will hurt if you
only play post-imperial. You need to talk your friends into playing the
entire game they paid for and start in the dark age. Most default setting
games are decided in under 1:30 and wrapping up in an hour is pretty common
(no black forest games ever).


Tonto_Samurai
Forum Member posted 08-13-00 02:22 AM EDT (US)    3 / 4
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I started playing Japanese too, when I was a newbie. The (unfortunate) truth
is that the Japanese are really a pretty bad civ, though I await their
improvement in the xpack.  Probably the best advice I could give you if you
are going to play Japanese is focus on infantry a lot, and their archers are
also a force to be reckoned with.
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[finally conforming to the whisper sig
[inventor of the whisper thread
[credendo vides-- by believing, one sees
[never look a frankish paladin in the mouth
[ green green green green green


Shogun Of The Dark
Forum Member posted 08-12-00 11:04 PM EDT (US)    2 / 4
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The people I play with always start in post imperial. Reason being they
rather spend more time fighting and less time building. They all have jobs
and are very conscientious of time. I think 2-4 hrs is the longest game we've
played.

warlord747
Forum Member posted 08-12-00 10:51 PM EDT (US)    1 / 4
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i think japanese do a pretty good fishing boat boom so build alot of them in
dark

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The elements of being good at aok.

bencelot
Forum Member posted 08-11-00 10:24 AM EDT (US)
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No, this is not me telling you how to get good, because unfortunately i'm not
very good myself  instead, i'm asking you what are the main factors of being
good, and how to improve them.
Here are the factors that i can currently think of:
Knowledge of strats/tricks.... knowing the build order of certain strats, and
just knowing other helpful things, eg. hotkeys.

Quick Reaction.... Knowing instantly what to do if something bad happens, eg.
you get flushed. And knowing when is the right time to attack.

Micro Management... Moving the mouse quickly, good at micro managing, and
being able to do many things at once.

Creativity... Instead of just making an army, and sending it off, thinking of
the best, more suprising way to do things, eg. make an ambush, or a diversion.


This is all i can think of at the moment. But can you think of anymore, and
tell me which of these factors is the most important, and how i can improve
my game by practising on the areas of the game?!
THX

~bencelot

Author Replies:

bencelot
Forum Member posted 08-12-00 00:36 AM EDT (US)    4 / 4
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THX for your replies!

Trouble_4_U
Forum Member posted 08-11-00 01:35 PM EDT (US)    3 / 4
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I would consider myself an expert and I have listed some important things
though not necessarily in that order:
1. Record all games and review them. Its ok to lose as long as u know why.

2. Forward build. Fighting in enemy territory is always prefered.

3. Boom your butt off. A good formula to follow. Half of your pop should be
villagers/fishing boats.

4. Never let up the pressure and remember that the enemies home base is your
ultimate goal. No one ever won a single game of AOK by defending.

5. Know your enemy. Scout constantly and patrol units between you and the
enemy. Knowing what units hes making helps you counter his attack. Also if
you know a certain player is prone to feudal rushing, u can better prepare
for it.

Trouble_4_U


AFK_Tick
Forum Member posted 08-11-00 12:38 PM EDT (US)    2 / 4
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Just to expand on your Quick Reaction point, it doesn't just mean a quick
reaction to a strategy, but also a quick reaction to an opponent's army.
Specifically, understanding how to counter single unit and multiple unit
armies properly.
And the point which I think is most important is to take the fight to your
enemy's home base, rather than fighting in your own town.


GPA_Chooch709
Forum Member posted 08-11-00 10:41 AM EDT (US)    1 / 4
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i have a recorded game where i pretend like i am going to TC push (he had
massed onagers and elbows...), i built one TC with 16-20 vils, garrisoned
then and while he was freaking out over that i came in from the back, used LC
for his onagers and skirms and then once they were dead using cheap units, i
sent in BCs and jans from the other side and he never knew what hit him...
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--
AIM: Chooch709, ZONE: GPA_Chooch709
~Elite Sponge~ & ~GPA Leader~
My Awards Page
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Sponges Recorded Games!

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Macro-like Dark age precision - is it worth it?

DK_3k
Forum Member posted 08-12-00 08:27 PM EDT (US)
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This is how i start -
1) H,C,C,C,C (make 4 villagers)
2) (Select 3 villagers) B,E,B,E,B,E,B,E (build 4 houses)
3) I task all new villes on sheep and every time i get 50 food i order
another one.
4)When the 4 houses are built task those villies on wood.
5) click "LOOM" when you have 25 villies
6) click "Advance to Feudal" when loom is resarched

Is this strat healthy? I usually Feudal in about 12.5 minutes with this
strat...

What is yours?

>>>bok186


[This message has been edited by DK_3k (edited 08-12-2000).]

Author Replies:

Great Benze
Forum Member posted 08-13-00 00:27 AM EDT (US)    3 / 3
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Just do hcc, then task your vils on houses, then finsh the "c"s. This will
cut two to three seconds off your time! Try it!
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|Rookies are our future! Be nice to them.
|ZN : Great_Benze
|I Play Shimo and RM.
|Visit my awards page!
|Intermediate at skill, rookie at heart.

BlakNite_JNK
Forum Member posted 08-12-00 09:41 PM EDT (US)    2 / 3
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Hmm... I don't know if you should build 4 houses immediatly, I'd rather put
them on food to pump out those villies. Anyways, here's my usually build
order if I don't plan on flushing
(with mongols)
1)hcccc
2).be.be
3), [ctrl]+3 (any number would do)
4)scout goes one side of the tonw, 3rd vil goes to the other direction
5)everybody on sheep
6)9th vil, on trees, alternate between food and wood, whatever I need at the
time
7)feudal at 29-30
8)build barracks during feudal transition, send 4 woodies on gold (stones if
im saracens)
9)2 vils build market, other 2 on something else, research loom
10)castle, build stables, and run into the other guy with knights and rams
while booming like a madman.

I usually go 12-13 feudal, and 15-16 castle if I don't get rushed. This is
only if I feel like castle booming tho. I usually rush


Wrathstar29

At one point I tried the b [shift]-c at the beginnning, but for some reason,
sometimes I only get one vil in the queue and I end up with an idle tc
without realising . hcccc seems to work better for me. Oh well.



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"Diplomats are just as essential to starting a war as Soldiers are for
finishing it. You take Diplomacy out of a war and the thing would fall flat
in a week"
Zone Name: _Steel_Dagger_, BlakNite_JNK



Wrathstar29
Forum Member posted 08-12-00 09:20 PM EDT (US)    1 / 3
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Go to mrfixitonline.com they know what to do. Here's how I sometimes start
(I'm more of a feel starter than a build order guy)
1. H, shift + C and make scout #1
2. Have closest 2 villies build house while other explores for sheep opposite
direction of scout
3. get loom whenever you don't have enough food for next villie (make sure
before you go boaring)
4. first 15 villies on food (only)
5. 16-21 go to wood
6. 22-26 go to mineral of choice (gold or stone)
7. if not have enough food to feud now then get to around 30 pop but don't go
over!!
8. during trangs get the 800 food and required wood/gold so that if needed
you can hit castle asap (personally I spend a few secs in feud to either grap
a few more villies or perhaps get the cart thingy.

Get to castle, boom and get a military (you should already have some pikes
and skirms from your feud time ( I tend to get them incase of a flush or a
crush)

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How many units do u....

ageek
Forum Member posted 08-11-00 08:20 PM EDT (US)
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Just asking, how many units do u usually loose in a RM game? DM?
Author Replies:

mr self destruct
Forum Member posted 08-12-00 11:27 PM EDT (US)    3 / 3
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quote:
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The best game I ever played I had 1044 kills, 15 losses, 35 buildings
destroyed, and 1 building lost.
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Dam Newbie Killas


Brad4321
Forum Member posted 08-12-00 10:48 PM EDT (US)    2 / 3
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The best game I ever played I had 1044 kills, 15 losses, 35 buildings
destroyed, and 1 building lost.

SwiftAero
Forum Member posted 08-12-00 03:46 PM EDT (US)    1 / 3
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Too hard to say. Really depends on each game. I will say that I really like
it when I lose less than 1/2 of the number I kill. However, that is very
rare. Lately my battles are ending up even. I think the competition is
getting better. Or they've figured out what I'm doing.

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how to start in the dark age

gawheezer9
Forum Member posted 08-11-00 04:33 PM EDT (US)
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Ive read so many strategies about how to start in the dark ages. I have come
up with the "thingie" that if your not chinese, you should build three
houses, use all your sheep, build all the vills you can, scout, and build a
barracks during fuedaling. oh and use the boars and deers to fuedal (375food
from boars and 200 from deer.
I also use about 4 vills for one deer so that theres no need to build a mill
near the herd.
is there anything wrong with "my" ideas? are there any add-ons that could
help?
and how do you peeple do that smilee face thingie?
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--
Winners never quit, Quitters never win, but people who never win and never
quit are losers.
:) Let's turn this team around 360 degrees :)
Author Replies:

BlakNite_JNK
Forum Member posted 08-12-00 09:58 PM EDT (US)    3 / 3
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Your basic idea of a dark age start is good, but I can't help you if you
don't really give me your usual build order.
I've posted one of my biuld orders here:
http://aok.heavengames.com/cgi-bin/aokcgi/display.cgi?action=st&fn=1&tn=19766&
f=,,1,10
hope that helps

Oh yeah, about those smiley thingy: : and ) creates  experiment!



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--
"Diplomats are just as essential to starting a war as Soldiers are for
finishing it. You take Diplomacy out of a war and the thing would fall flat
in a week"
Zone Name: _Steel_Dagger_, BlakNite_JNK



Tonto_Andy
Forum Member posted 08-12-00 04:01 PM EDT (US)    2 / 3
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Yes, but you usually have 2 boars and 3-4 (x2 sometimes) deer.
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Freshly Reincarnated!

Raz Dawson
Forum Member posted 08-11-00 04:56 PM EDT (US)    1 / 3
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Boars have 340 food and deers have 140.

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How to use towers?

Tarentola
Forum Member posted 08-11-00 04:22 PM EDT (US)
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My usual strategy is to do a knight rush and tear down an opponents town
quickly. I wonder why ANYONE would want to play defensively and build walls
and towers. There are two reasons I think defensive, mind you, towers aren't
very useful:
1) IMO, once you start being defensive, you start to lose. The goal of the
game (I play Conquest only) is to defeat your enemies, and that's not gonna
happen if you stay defensive. Quick action is needed!
2) Towers aren't great "units": they cost a lot (scarce resource, better used
on castles), don't have good attack unless you garrison them and die very
easily to trebs and melee units.

The only two cases in which towers were used effectively against me were
these:
- Someone was Byz, on the losing end, and built several Btowers in the
passage to his town. He mixed them with pikes, arbs, onagers and BCs. It took
LOTS of trebs and inf to take them down, but still he lost.
- Another guy build Btowers faster than my trebs could take em down. My trebs
got shot to pieces. This might qualify as offensive tower use though.

So, under what circumstances do you recommend the use of defensive towers?
How do you place them effectively? Are towers ss. actually useful, or only
Btowers? And how do you protect them from their obvious counter, the
trebuchet?



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I know... the past will catch you up as you run faster...
I know... the last in line is always called a bastard... - Placebo

Author Replies:

tonto_real
Forum Member posted 08-12-00 05:52 PM EDT (US)    9 / 9
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SwiftAero
Well put! I like to leave at least a Mangonel in the frontyard of my 'home
TC' and perhaps a ScoutCav on patrol about the periphery of my homeland... as
well as at least 1 of each of the basic armories... back there, too. You
don't and you are liable to get back-doored.*eek*


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tonto_real, Emperor by acclamation, TONTO EMPIRE
(What's "tonto" mean?);)

for yor "Knightly spurs" JOIN US! TONTO EMPIRE @
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SwiftAero
Forum Member posted 08-12-00 03:29 PM EDT (US)    8 / 9
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Some simple thoughts ... towers are defensive if the enemy is attacking and
offensive if they are preventing enemy expansion or shutting down the
opponent's economy. Early rushes have towers attacking wood, stone, and gold
gatherers. Later in the game when the enemy expands, towers shut down the
expansion. If you piece together the responses so far:
"First, towers provide great cover for archers" by Zero. Again, offensive or
defensive ... depends on the enemy.

"Towers can be a great substitute for Castles in the Castle age" by
Aphroqueen (you gotta like that name!). No units come out, of course, but it
does substitute for a fortification to fend off attacks and to prevent
expansion.

When you're playing defense you're not necessarily on the losing end. You
could be attacking across the map and defending on the other side. Defending
is always necessary. Otherwise a smart opponent will run behind the scenes
and shut down your economy. (By the way, this often works for the new player
turned intermediate. They try to flush and forget about home. I find that new
players tend to sit back and build up a monumental home base while never
expanding.) In the right spots, towers may effective substitute for defensive
troops. Add some walls too.


Tarentola
Forum Member posted 08-12-00 02:00 PM EDT (US)    7 / 9
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Thanks for your suggestions, some seems to be rather solid ideas (Aphroqueens
idea, to mention one). But noone has answered the question: why would you
WANT to build towers? Like I said, are DEFENSIVE towers only useful when you
are on the losing end?

Zero
Forum Member posted 08-11-00 08:12 PM EDT (US)    6 / 9
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a couple of things. First, towers provide great cover for archers. If being
attacked by enemy meelee or ranged units in your rage, You put some archers
in the ower and they fire at the enemy and are protected from damage until
the tower is taken down. Als, your units garrisoned in towers heal. They
provide a good line of sight to.

Aphroqueen
Forum Member posted 08-11-00 07:44 PM EDT (US)    5 / 9
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Towers can be a great substitute for Castles in the Castle age. The only
thing is you need to place them in pairs and put some walls around them. If
you are low on stone and desperately need to get up some defenses, towers are
the way to go. Maks some archers and garrison them up.
The one advantage that towers have that people dont realise, towers cant have
any more than 8 melee troops attacking it at once. Once you get a couple of
the upgrades for them, they can do quit well.

Take a gate and make a small square of walls with the gate an entire side of
the square. Place two towers inside. This is much cheaper than a castle and
practially as strong. Put a mangonel insid this square on defensive and the
gate locked and its quite a force, especially for tuets.

Of course, once imperial comes along trebs own everything, castles, TC and
towers alike. So saying that towers suck in Imperial isnt sailing in
uncharted waters.

Most people fail to use towers correctly as they are meant to coupled with
walls and a few support troops.


Sir Marf of Ans
Forum Member posted 08-11-00 04:58 PM EDT (US)    4 / 9
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I play with defensively with the defencive civ and I never build towers other
than Bombard towers. Instead I hoard stone and build castles for defence,
there a lot better and you don't need to stuff archers in them. I figure that
it takes 5 towers to equal 1 castle. so for 5 towers with archers it takes
250 wood, 225 gold, and 625 stone and keeps only have 2250 HP while a castle
costs 650 stone, has 4800 HP plus add 1000 with hoardings, and if you add the
masonry and architecture that's a ton of HP. Plus you can create your UU in
it. So castles are better at defence than 5 towers, cost wise and usefulness
wise. Plus a foward castle is a lot better than fowarding 5 towers. Now for
teuton towers that's a different matter, and for the franks building a castle
is a ton cheaper than towers. But that's just how I play.
[This message has been edited by Sir Marf of Ans (edited 08-11-2000).]


Tonto_Christopher
Forum Member posted 08-11-00 04:49 PM EDT (US)    3 / 9
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Towers are one of the most effective feudal rushing tools, if you can hit
feudal quick and tower up his woodies and goldies, with some supportive
archers, an economy is shot...
The only counter for that is good scouting, skirmishers, and maybe a very
quick castle, but if you are going up against a good feudal rusher... You get
stomped early..

Bam!


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Come visit us at the Tonto clan and claim your knightly spurs!
www.geocities.com/tonto_clan


gawheezer9
Forum Member posted 08-11-00 04:36 PM EDT (US)    2 / 9
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I personally use Btowers all the time. ibuild lie a line of them (spread out)
about three levels deep. and horse posts to destory trebs and hand cannons in
between towers for support. ( i like Byz)
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--
Winners never quit, Quitters never win, but people who never win and never
quit are losers.
:) Let's turn this team around 360 degrees :)

GPA_Chooch709
Forum Member posted 08-11-00 04:31 PM EDT (US)    1 / 9
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turks with offensive BTs and their UTw hich adds +2 range to the bombard
tower rule...they almost have the lenght of treb, but if u back tehm up with
cavaliers, jans and BCs they are great offensively...
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AIM: Chooch709, ZONE: GPA_Chooch709
~Elite Sponge~ & ~GPA Leader~
My Awards Page
Spongers Anonymous
Sponges Recorded Games!

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Teutonic Strategy

Lancelott
Forum Member posted 08-07-00 12:51 PM EDT (US)
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I was playing AOK and beat the Byzantines, Persians, and Teutons(Teutons were
by them selves), I was Viking, allys were goths. The goths didn't get killed
but they didn't help......at all. All they did was occationlly take hit from
a raid. Meaning the Pers would raid them and not me once in a while, it
didn't matter though because My berserks and Champs could easily take out
their LSmen. Get this, the Byzan's Pers had LSmen in late imperial. I took
them out easily. It was a team islands map, i sent my berserks and Transport
ships filled with Champs and Berserks, the stupid Pers built half their city
on the coast, and had no elephants,so I could take out the towers and TC's
with Longboats and Galleons, major naval assistance. The byzantines were
nothing to take out. I slaughtered them. But i lost major units by Teutonic
Knights I took out some with Longboats but Champs and berskerks couldn't get
into town. I lost 47 units to the teutons, 47! I couldn't pennatrate the wall
of Teutonic Knights then I sent 1 villager on their island build a castle
created berserks built a barracks a TC and other milatary stuff. Then my full
mass of Berserks took out their serverly wounded wall of Teutonic Knights. I
invaded, then killed them all. I thought that that was it. No, they had a
huge 2nd mass of Teutonic Knights I lost most of my units i retredted, then I
sent the berserks back in they were fully healed and then I drew the Teutonic
Knights attention with them and sent in a second mass of champs and berserks
from the side they didn't have enough army to stop me and then invaded. Does
anyone have a better stratigey to beat the Teutons because this one cost way
too much for all that army. thanks
Author Replies:

Weisi the Great of Stavka
Forum Member posted 08-10-00 02:24 PM EDT (US)    9 / 9
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Yep, all the replies above are very good, personal choice of weapon are monks
and onagers. WHY DID YOU BUILD BERSERKS?

Phantom2612
Forum Member posted 08-09-00 11:53 AM EDT (US)    8 / 9
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Archers and onegers work good but if they have Paladins you have to have
pikemen to defend your group

Confused Saboteur
Forum Member posted 08-09-00 00:09 AM EDT (US)    7 / 9
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Wait a minute, you played a Teuton and worried about their TKs?!...

Grand_Commander13
Forum Member posted 08-08-00 08:01 PM EDT (US)    6 / 9
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I'd just like to inform you it is "raze", not "raise". Do you think the TKs
are Roman Legionarys or something? Sure, Both are cool, but you'd never see
ETKs building ROADS...
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"You have less to fear from my Town Centers than from my 100 Teutonic
Knights."

BlakNite_JNK
Forum Member posted 08-07-00 03:55 PM EDT (US)    5 / 9
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First of, I would never, ever send other infantry vs teutknights. It's
suicide, It's like going up on a war elephant, execept it costs a hell lot
less for the teut player. Once my ally went up to a bunch of tk with pike.
Omgn it was a massacre. I guess he ran outta gold  He shoulda let me handle
it...
Like everybody mentioned, archers are the common counter vs teutknights. I
prefer to mix two to three onagers into the mix. A hell lot bettre that way.
Also, on the late castle, early imp, when there's fewer tks, I tend to use
Mangugais, for the heck of it. on 1 vs 1, Mandugais can beat a tk without a
scratch, even with the lag. By that time, the opponnent should have a lil
more than 5 tk, while my annoying CavArchers & mandugai take hit and runs.
mwehehehe. Just wish that cursed Monk wasn't there healing their wounds.
*sign*, some things just ruins my fun.


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"Battle doesn't need a purpose; the battle is it's own purpose.
You don't ask why a plague spreads or a field burns.
Don't ask why I fight."
-Black Knight-
Zone Name: _Steel_Dagger_, BlakNite_JNK


Winston
Forum Member posted 08-07-00 03:44 PM EDT (US)    4 / 9
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I never really see ETKS or TKs being used much anymore. heck, champs are
being less and less used because of the combinations that slaughter them.
First of all, dont use 1 type of army. Ezerks are awesome but cannot be mass
produced fast AND they are not the best infantry, that belongs to the TK.
Arbs, Onagers, Scorps, and EVEN.. TREBS will eat TK's like little round
donuts.

Last time I ever hit massed ETKS it was 80 of them comming down an
archepelogoes (After I took out his 2 allies). Scared the bejezuz outta
me.... and remember FEAR is important.. However, I asked my ally: "What the
hell do I do?" since I was panicing.. He told me "Onagers". Well, I did build
up onagers and champs...

I lost major ground.. my ally forgot to tell me "Archers, and ALL the archers
you can" That would have made a huge diff. However, I had too much econ and
too much going for me. ETK massing is for late imp, and I was so resource
heavy I could not lose. heh.


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I know I can write on this computer screen somehow. Now to sign this
signature.

GriffinKnight
Forum Member posted 08-07-00 03:05 PM EDT (US)    3 / 9
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The best way to take down tk's is to use onogers. Five onogers can take out
about 25 tk or weaken them enough where you can easily kill them

swp
Forum Member posted 08-07-00 02:09 PM EDT (US)    2 / 9
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u sent only ONE villager to build a forward base?!?!?! ok, ur not gonna get a
base up very quickly. in the early game, i take 2 or 3. in late castle, or
imp, i always take at least 6.
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| .:: swp ::. |
| or u can just call me Steve =) |
| ICQ# 73209773 |
| Zone: GPA_Swp or _swp_xln_ |
| Webmaster of the GPA Clan |

Tonto_Christopher
Forum Member posted 08-07-00 02:00 PM EDT (US)    1 / 9
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Well Lancelot, the Elite Teutonic Knight is the strongest infantry unit in
the game, fully upgraded they can raise towns and buildings in a very short
time, but they are also the slowest infantry unit in the game...
So try using mass ballistic units, like arbalests, crossbows, or coerce them
towards the coast and mow the knights down with longboats...

Try using thier weakness to your advantage

Bam!


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Come visit us at the Tonto clan and claim your knightly spurs!
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Little Known Strategies of the Greats. #6

Winston
Forum Member posted 08-08-00 09:21 AM EDT (US)
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Disclaimer: Standard one already mentioned in previous part of series.
Previously on LKSG:
Flanking
Cloning
Macros
Fear
Building(TC) defence.

and now
#6: Deer Herding.

Many times you will see plenty of threads here and elsewhere on the use of
deer: Is it worth it? Well, there is a small contingent of Experts
(Captn_Kidd for one) who uses "Deer herding".

Basically, Deer herding is moving the deer towards a gather point with your
scout in early buildup. Deer are better than berries and farms. We LURE boars
and we walk sheep in and kill them for food. Well what about the 4-8 deer
laying around.

move your scout(or 1 vill) behind the deer and move them closer to the deer.
The Deer will bound away from your scout/vill. If you have your vills at your
mill then you should "herd" the deers to your TC, and if your vills are at
your TC, herd them towards your mill. 3 vills on deer hunting will get you a
ton of quick food. It is one of the rarely seen strat since it is HARD as
heck to do.

I suggest practicing deer herding til you get it down like how EASY boar
hunting is now.

The advantages of deer is known as speed of collection, larger amounts of
food faster..
The advantage of herding is NO extra wood is used.



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I know I can write on this computer screen somehow. Now to sign this
signature.
Author Replies:

Everyman
Forum Member posted 08-10-00 05:38 PM EDT (US)    22 / 22
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Holnist, I'm impressed, both with your having played smurf Koven and with
Koven's tactics.
Herding deer as Mongols while stone mining heavily is **** ingenious.


Holnist
Forum Member posted 08-10-00 04:52 PM EDT (US)    21 / 22
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Actually Everyman, last night I played a 1on1 arabia vs arch_koven under one
of his smurf names. He was mongols and did an all out tower flush after
feudeling in the low 9's. Anyways he had 6 or 7 stone miners and a really low
vil count so he was still relying on natural sources of food and my scout ran
across him herding deer torwads one of his mills.
Im sure he'll post the demo on fixit so you guys could check that out.


Winston
Forum Member posted 08-10-00 04:40 PM EDT (US)    20 / 22
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As stated: Captn_Kidd used this in his 11:54 castle time to win.
As for credence. Well, I always suggest you take and leave what you can use.
If you use all this, you would be better than the best I bet. Its all in how
you use it. Still, I dont blow me own horn, so "Winston does this" aint in
here, even if I do use it


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I know I can write on this computer screen somehow. Now to sign this
signature.

Everyman
Forum Member posted 08-10-00 04:14 PM EDT (US)    19 / 22
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I agree with Winston.
In Dark Age, your buildings are a mill for berries, a lumber camp and, just
before transition, a mining camp for gold. Sheep, berries, and boar will
provide you with more than enough food to go to feudal. There's no need for
deer hunting during the dark age.

In feudal on a non-fishing map, you have the option of hunting deer and
farming sparingly or farming heavily. If you build 10 farms, that's 600 wood.
If you build 4 farms and hunt deer, that's 240 + 100 (mill for deer)= 340
wood. The 260 wood you save can go towards a TC in the Castle age.

Personally, I'm not terribly concerned with the rate of deer rot, as 120 food
times 4 deer should be more than enough to bring me into the castle age. As
far as deer is concerned, the issue is not deer rot, as much as it is saving
wood. Since having a lot of surplus wood going into castle age is extremely
beneficial, deer hunting or herding is of interest to me.

Winston, it might help in your series "Little Known Strategies of the Greats"
if you could document which experts use a particular strat. Knowing that a
player like Arch Koven or Out4Blood, for example, uses a certain strat gives
that "little known strategy" a bit more creedence.

[This message has been edited by Everyman (edited 08-10-2000).]


Winston
Forum Member posted 08-10-00 09:32 AM EDT (US)    18 / 22
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riley, I always build a mill and houses and lumber mill and eventually a
mining center in Dark Age. Building a Mill away from the berries means losing
100 wood, now if the deer were close to the berries. YES!!
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I know I can write on this computer screen somehow. Now to sign this
signature.

Riley Man
Forum Member posted 08-09-00 11:43 PM EDT (US)    17 / 22
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Given that a mill costs 100 wood. But if you use it as one of the two
required buildings to reach feudal age, it's not such a bad thing, now is it?

Everyman
Forum Member posted 08-09-00 11:30 PM EDT (US)    16 / 22
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Riley, I appreciate the math, but the way I see it, deer is free food minus
100 wood (mill). So even if you lose say 20 food on a deer due to rotting,
that's still 120 food "free."
It seems to me that the value of hunting deer is that you can put off
spending wood on farms. The wood can be used to make buildings in Castle.

I've never tried deer herding but it seems worth a try. Interesting thread,
Winston.


Riley Man
Forum Member posted 08-09-00 11:07 PM EDT (US)    15 / 22
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Yes, farming does give more food. But yes, it takes *forever*, when compared
to hunting. That's why people use hunting during the dark age -- because
gathering as much food in as short amount of time as possible is necessary.
I agree that herding helps out. It's just that herding deer to the town
center (rather than a nearby mill) takes so much skill and effort. I tried
doing it, and man is it tough.

I guess the main point of my post was to show just how profound rotting can
affect the amount of food you gather. I was totally surprised to find that
just by having a few more villagers, you can get so much more food out of it.

[This message has been edited by Riley Man (edited 08-09-2000).]


Winston
Forum Member posted 08-09-00 04:51 PM EDT (US)    14 / 22
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RileyMan: Great!! very well put post. Excellent.
A few things though, my brain is about dead (at work) and just wondering,
resource wise: 100 wood = 513 food and 8 vills using thier seconds. 1 farm =
60 wood = 340 food = 1 villager time.

Let me think here.
8vills * 60 = 8 farms = 480 wood = 340*8 = 2720 food.
time to collect?? slower right?

If TIME aint the issue, I would say that FARMING is a much better way to get
food. Maybe... then again it takes 8*farmloss in vill seconds to get 2720
food.

Herding the deer to a place near a mill or Tc provides the following:
Gains back vill seconds it takes to walk to gather point.
Gains back the 100 wood you use on extra mill.
Can use 1 scout for herding (not affect vill seconds).
Can use your sheep vills off your TC to jump to deer/boar and extend the time
you get into farming.

IF you can do this like a champ, use it.. may shave a good 20 secs or more
OFF your castle time.

In general, I only hunt deer myself, when it is already close to another
gather point.

BTW, shore fish are nice and fattening.



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I know I can write on this computer screen somehow. Now to sign this
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Riley Man
Forum Member posted 08-09-00 03:58 PM EDT (US)    13 / 22
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Just wanted to chime in with a report of a little test I did. I set up a
scenario with a town centre, twelve villagers, a scout, a small forest about
15-20 tiles from the town centre, and four deer near the forest.
I tried using different numbers of villagers per deer to find out which was
optimal. Here's my findings.

Each deer provides 140 food maximum (ie. no rotting). Four deer therefore
provide 560 food maximum.

Each villager holds 35 food before having to go back to drop off the food.

140 / 35 = 4 (Hmmm I wonder if that's just a coincidence...)

In the following cases, I built a mill near the deer, and tried to kill the
deer within 3 tiles of the mill.

Case 1:
I first tried using three villagers per deer. I managed to gather 456 food.
That's a loss of 84 food in total to rotting!

Case 2:
I then realized that by having all three villagers start the collection
process at the same time, there is a period of time the deer is left
unattended. I used three villagers per deer again. But this time, I walked
them back to the mill at staggering times, so that they A) didn't get in each
others way and B) the deer was always attended to. Here I managed to gather
459 food. Not much of a difference, but a little extra micromanagement does
help.

Case 3:
Six villagers per deer. This time, I gathered 505 food. Much, much better.
That's about enough food for an extra villager, and a loss of only 35 food to
rotting.

Case 4:
Four villagers per deer. Having at least four per villager ensures they only
walk back to the mill (or town center) once. This time, I gathered 482 food.
Better than 3 villies per deer, but not as good as six! This is a loss of 58
food to rotting.

Case 5:
Since more villagers seems better, eight villagers per deer. (For this test,
the remaining four villagers I just walked out of the way and were doing
nothing) Here you have to be careful -- only eight villagers can fit around a
deer. So make sure it's not too close to the mill or to a tree when you kill
it, otherwise your eighth villager won't be able to get to it. This time, I
gathered 513 food. Best yet! Definitely enough for an extra villager compared
to 3 villies per deer. This is a loss of only 27 food to rotting.


Conclusion:
The more villagers you can get on a deer (or a sheep or board for that
matter), the better. You'll get more food out of the deal.

Note that in these cases, herding the deer all the way back to the town
center would gain you no extra food. It may gain you extra time, but in a
regular game scenario (as opposed to tournaments where the sole purpose is to
see how fast you can obtain some goal) it's probably not worth it.

As long as you have at least four villagers on a deer, your villagers only
have to walk back to the mill / town center once. This in of itself is a
time-saver.

These tests didn't include results in terms of the time it took to gather the
food. Time can be a factor as well, obviously. But I think if you use this
information wisely, it can help your gameplay.

If you end up short of food to hit the feudal button, it could be because you
had too few villagers on those deer!

Deer are not the only natural source of food. My recommendation on using this
information is to incorporate it with all your other activities. Since deer
usually appear near some trees, use that to your advantage. Build your first
lumber camp relatively close to where the deer are (but not close enough that
your lumberjacks will be getting in the way). Once you have a steady stream
of villagers coming out of the town center, have one of them build a mill
near the deer. Send the next seven villagers to *replace* your existing
lumberjacks. Have your current lumberjacks become hunters (after dropping off
their wood). If available, use your scout to herd the deer closer to the
mill. And make sure you set those six to eight villagers on one of your
hotkeys! This strategy could help you get the food you need to reach feudal
and/or castle age. Let's face it -- food is the most important resource in
the early stages of the game.

[This message has been edited by Riley Man (edited 08-09-2000).]


PangoAtWork
Forum Member posted 08-09-00 12:33 PM EDT (US)    12 / 22
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Remember that deer and boar 'rot' when they are not being cut up for food (I
don't think sheep rot). If you kill all of your deer and only have 2 villies
per, then the deer will rot when both villies are walking to/from the deer
and drop-off point.
I find it works best to have at least six villies to hunt deer. Have them all
work the same deer, then go to the next one.

I have not run the numbers, but I would think that a deer also rots even when
you are gathering food from it, so the faster you cut it up the better.


Transcora
Forum Member posted 08-09-00 00:55 AM EDT (US)    11 / 22
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I once figured if you set waypoints you can "trap" the deer where you want,
if you got the time or the boredom, although it's halfway useable if you are
going to play ai.
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Knight_Templar
Forum Member posted 08-09-00 00:46 AM EDT (US)    10 / 22
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I love finding a deer herd next to some shore fish, now that's real value!
Man I wish Arabia had as much deer as Team Islands! Here's a building dilema
on Team Islands, which one first, second mill next to 8+ deer or first dock?


SiLent_SniPer
Forum Member posted 08-08-00 09:49 PM EDT (US)    9 / 22
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I only hunt deer if I need more food, but I never herd them. I build a mill
near the 3-4 deer and hunt them. Then I make the hunters farm. This is not
very good, since I wastse some wood. Remember, ALWAYS hunt deer on TEAM
ISLANDS. There will tons on deer on team islands in greoups of 10-15 (sheesh)
Don't waste it, those deer aren't doing any good except eating up the grass,
eat them!
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quote:
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Know yourself, know your enemy. A hundred battles you fight, a hundred you
shall win
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Sun Zi

Tonto_Christopher
Forum Member posted 08-08-00 09:31 PM EDT (US)    8 / 22
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Thanks for all these great posts winston!
For anyone who is interested in strategies sakes, keep them coming please!

Bam!


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Come visit us at the Tonto clan and claim your knightly spurs!
www.geocities.com/tonto_clan

KiNG_MiNoS
Forum Member posted 08-08-00 06:09 PM EDT (US)    7 / 22
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I saw matty try that once in a recorded game and ended up screwing himself a
bit.
If I use deer in my opening, I usually do the following:

Send 4 villagers out to the deer herd.
Shoot all the deer (2 shots will kill a deer, so put 2 vills on each deer)
Drop a mill in the middle of the carcasses and harvest them.

Yes, you lose a bit of meat to deterioration, but vill seconds are saved as
the dropoff point is closer and you don't end up with the stupid vills
standing around while the 3rd and 4th deer have run a screen away.


Winston
Forum Member posted 08-08-00 04:30 PM EDT (US)    6 / 22
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well, Yes DEER HERDING is a hard strat. I believe I mention that in there. It
is "Little known strats of the GREATS". It takes a lot of micro management
and some practice to get this right. Dropping a MILL in between boar and deer
is good too. The thing is, Deer herding is USED and can be used to gain
resources if used right.
On another subject: LURE the BOAR with your SCOUT. Dont lose vill secs
luring. I seen this done correctly before. It is a serious pain to not lose
your scout AND keep the boar following you.

I tend not to even bother with Deer mostly, because it is so hard. ON SLOW
game though, it is not as hard, and can pay off handsomely.


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I know I can write on this computer screen somehow. Now to sign this
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Paralyticus
Forum Member posted 08-08-00 03:48 PM EDT (US)    5 / 22
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For people who have great micromanagement abilities, deer herding might be
easy and even pay off.
For the rest of us, this is a HUGE waste of time.
For the likes of me here is one tip, half way between the tip at the topic
and the "build mill when 4+ deer found".

Yes, build that mill if you have 4+ deer there. As said before, certain maps,
like Team Islands are RICH in HUGE packs of deer - WAIT till you find them
before you lay down that mill - it's worth it! Archipelago is another of
those maps.

Group the Villagers so that they are packed together.
No, don't just kill the deer. First move the Villagers to make the deer be
between the Villagers and the mill. THEN use ALL the villies at the same
time, killing the deer one by one.
Finally send one villie to each deer.

Of course it pays off to have 2 Villagers per deer. But consider the time
lost for the extra 4 Villagers (go to place, build mill, manoeuvre around the
deer, etc. and you see that having 4 more Villagers doing these gymnastics is
not a good policy. Havinf the deer get as close as possible to the mill might
just be enough to justify the move of 1 Vill per carcass.

My 2 cents (hopefuly worth that much).



Rainbow_Toast
Forum Member posted 08-08-00 03:37 PM EDT (US)    4 / 22
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The excessive micromanagement will probably result in lost resources. If
there are more than four deer in one spot, I will build a new mill next to
them and hunt from there. There are a few maps (team islands?) where deer
hunting pays off big.

Darkman
Forum Member posted 08-08-00 03:24 PM EDT (US)    3 / 22
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I find deer herding to be excessive micromanagement. Generally, I hunt deer
if: 1) I am the Mongols or 2) if they are within about 10 tiles of a gather
point while I transition to Feudal.
Also I like to kill my enemies deer!


BlakNite_JNK
Forum Member posted 08-08-00 11:43 AM EDT (US)    2 / 22
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I tried deer herding a couple of times vs the pc. It's hard as hell to do,
The deer always seems to come back to it's original position . Dang.
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"Battle doesn't need a purpose; the battle is it's own purpose.
You don't ask why a plague spreads or a field burns.
Don't ask why I fight."
-Black Knight-
Zone Name: _Steel_Dagger_, BlakNite_JNK


Winston
Forum Member posted 08-08-00 11:28 AM EDT (US)    1 / 22
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Do me a Favor guys, If you liked it or not, Comment on it? Or say TOP if you
REALLY like it. Last 2 in series garneed no comments.. does this mean it
sucks or still is cool? heh.
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I know I can write on this computer screen somehow. Now to sign this
signature.

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Transporting Villagers

Trouble_4_U
Forum Member posted 08-10-00 04:44 PM EDT (US)
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Ok, you are playing a water map and you've got to feudal and are ready to go
for that early landing on enemy turf. Hopefully in dark age u used a fishing
boat as a "water scout" and know where your enemy(s) are. You also want to
try and land on multiple places. Load up 4 villagers and a scout and away u
go. Nearing the first island, you skirt the edge. Click on the transport then
click on the scout and one villager. They hop off and the trans keeps going
with two more villagers still onboard. Take the remaing two on to your next
landing spot. Once there, unload the villagers and move the trans away from
the shore. Leave it floating nearby, cause if you are detected by enemy
scouting you can get back on the trans and relocate again. Get to the enemy
early and in different places. As has been stated a million times b4, the
best defense is a good offense.
Trouble_4_U

Author Replies:

SiLent_SniPer
Forum Member posted 08-10-00 08:56 PM EDT (US)    5 / 5
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I just love transport boats. Usually in water maps (islands, medi...) I make
a tran boat once I am feudal, then put in a villie and a scout, then I make
the tran boat move outward in a straight line until it reaches land. Then I
just build a barracks there and make some men@arms. In castle, I make a seige
work shop, a stable and a TC. By now I have scouted to know where to enemy
is(usually quite close) then I attack. I send in a vill to build a tower near
his wood/gold then I make a castle. Then he is dead. I usually use vikings
for this strat because of the tough infantry bonus and also the cool free
wheelbarrow bonus.
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quote:
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Know yourself, know your enemy. A hundred battles you fight, a hundred you
shall win
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Sun Zi

Soviet Hero
 posted 08-10-00 08:09 PM EDT (US)    4 / 5
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Whats fun to do is to gush. Then while still in feudal send some vils over by
transport to the enemy's base. Start putting up towers by his docks and
anywhere else. Anyways it works for me.
HERO


cnardone
Forum Member posted 08-10-00 06:41 PM EDT (US)    3 / 5
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Very cool Idea. I know I have never really used the Fishing boats to scout
for me. I always focused them on food.
hopefully it will work for me.

thanks

cmn


Eumaies
Forum Member posted 08-10-00 06:21 PM EDT (US)    2 / 5
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I prefer covert saracen drop of 8 rams, 12 knights on one secretly prepared
transport in mid castle age. Next load fill up on villagers and replacement
knights, and you own the land.

Trouble_4_U
Forum Member posted 08-10-00 05:31 PM EDT (US)    1 / 5
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Repost to move to top.

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Turkish Might.

Tsar_IvanIV
Forum Member posted 08-09-00 06:38 PM EDT (US)
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...I RELLY THINK TURKS ARE WEAK.THE ONLY GOOD STRATEGY FOR THEM IS THIS:
IS VERY SIMPLE, FIRST HIDE BEHIND UR ALLIES FOR THE FIRST 3 AGES AND THAN
GEAT 20 "TURKISH JANISSARIES" AND 40 HANDCONNONER+10 CONNONS THIS FORSE IS
UNSTOPABLE U CAN "ERASE" ENEMY BASES IN MINUTES JANISSARIES ARE VERY GOOD
UNITS A BUNCH OF THOSE ARE THE MATCH FOR FRANCH HORSES(PALS) ,EVEN WITHOUT
PIKE'S SCREEEN JANISS. CAN TOTTALY DESTROY PALS,+THEIR GREAT RANGE! THE ONLY
WEAKNESS OF THIS STRAT IS THAT IS MUST BE IMP AGE!

Author Replies:

Mechashef
Forum Member posted 08-11-00 00:35 AM EDT (US)    12 / 12
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The massive Turk gunpowder attack is very good if your enemy lets you build
up, but is still not unstopable.
I am a big Turk fan, and as I play mostly against the computer, (which is
very weak against my type of Strat), I find it is easy to be over confident
about the strength of the Massive Janny attack.

A few weeks ago I played four games against a friend. I played Turks, and he
played Teutons (without abusing the TTC).

By nature, we are both turtlers. In the first three games I walled, and got
to Imperial first. Because I was much faster than him I built an army of
Jannies backed by Cav, Spearmen, priests Trebs. I had a large number of
Jannies (the most that you can group together).

The first three games I walked over him. I was not ever threatened. The
fourth game he defended really well. He used heaps of skirmishers and
cavalry, onagers surrounded by pikes, bombard cannons, cannon galleys (It was
Black Forest and there was a large lake that I had to go past), and bombard
towers (though this combo may sound stupid, he used it really well - he is a
good tactical player, just too slow at economy). Though I killed about twice
as many troops than I lost, eventually I ran out of gold, and he won.

After game stats showed that I had mined more gold, but my Jannies really
used huge amounts of gold.

You can argue that I could have played better, but I will still argue that
while a huge Jannie army is powerful, a good player can still find ways of
beating it.



Captain_N
Forum Member posted 08-10-00 06:59 PM EDT (US)    11 / 12
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Don't you understand. This person is joking. He's sitting at his (or her)
computer right now, lauhghing his head off because you people don't realize
he's joking. And if he isn't joking, I dunno what to say. Please, I KNOW it's
hard, but DO NOT bring this back up to the top.

Trouble_4_U
Forum Member posted 08-10-00 05:21 PM EDT (US)    10 / 12
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TSAR,
I WOULD BLENDER YOUR NARCOLEPTIC SOAP ON A ROPE. I WOULD THEN USE MY HELMET
AND LOINCLOTH MADE OF CHEESE TO TOAST YOUR FLAKY TOADSTOOL MOTORCYCLE. AND IF
THAT DOESN'T BAKE YOUR BEANS AND TURTLES, THEN I WILL GLUE YOUR DICKEY TO
YOUR PURPLE AND ORANGE ZIPPER.

TROUBLE_4_U


icewall
Forum Member posted 08-10-00 05:16 PM EDT (US)    9 / 12
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MY STARTAGIES ALWAYS BEING GOODER THAN YOURS. I AM BUILDING THE ROCK THOWERS
THAT KILLS THE SHOOTINGS MEN U HAVE. MY STICKMAN WALKS AND YOUS HOURSES FALL
OFF BECAUSE THEY NOT RUN SO FAR. I AM ADVANCEING MUCH THRU THE AGES MORE
FASTER. THEN MY SMELLY HOSRE MAKE YOUR SOFT PEOPLE RUN AWAY. CAN YOU BEAT ME
OR AM I ALWAYS BEING THE BEST OVER YOU?

HERO
Forum Member posted 08-10-00 04:52 PM EDT (US)    8 / 12
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Tsar_IvanIV, like I said before you are a newbie or at best a rookie. And
don't(try)to flame someone for trying to help you. I just say the truth.
BTW I have way more experince with AOK than most forumers here(about 5-10hrs
a day since game came out, everytime doing new stuff). So I would *think* I
know what I'm saying. I have lost to a Turk player only 3 times on Zone in
the last 9months or so. 1st time I lost cuz it was 3vs3, all my allies were
rookie(go figure). 2nd time I lost to a Turk was a ffa. I was winning the
whole game intel this 2200 some ranker pulled out a killer strat which
involved placing BT everywhere(very very long game). 3rd time I lost was
because of a shimo game. 2 guys attacked at once(a Turk using jans and a Goth
with champs) After 15mins of fighting on my front I gave in. So as you can
see Turks are not that good. And I am no 'wannabe'.

HERO


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Have no fear HERO is here!

IClan_Emporer
Forum Member posted 08-10-00 04:50 PM EDT (US)    7 / 12
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Why do you first say that Turks suck, and then claim that they're unbeatable?
And what do you mean by calling Hero, a 'Hero wannabe'? That just makes no
sense. Really, you gotta stop using the Capslock, and get a life.



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Justin Cass, IClan_Emporer, IClan_Emporer@Hotmail.com
For downloads and original content, visit the Age of Empires Archive.
Get Paid For Writing Opinions on Games like AOK & More at Epinions.

Marty
Forum Member posted 08-10-00 03:48 PM EDT (US)    6 / 12
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Skirmies murder Jannies because:
Skirms have extensive pierce armour

Skirms get a large bonus vs jannies (even more for Elite skirms, which are
only about 150,100 to upgrade)

Yes some will die because of the jannies superior range but it is far easier
to get 50/60 skirms, it is much harder to mass a large force of jannies


ClickSurfEarn
Forum Member posted 08-10-00 02:16 PM EDT (US)    5 / 12
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Well, i'm sure everyone's laughing at your post... Skirmishers will slaughter
jans! Why? they're ranged, so they don't have to get too close to them...
They're cheap, which means while you run out of gold after training 30 jans,
we have enough res to train 50 skirm... They're effective vs Jans, due to the
jan's obvious inaccuracy thing. Oh well, i have no time to argue with a
newbie...
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"I tributed my wife 500 gold for her anniversary" -www.ClickSurfEarn.com

Tsar_IvanIV
Forum Member posted 08-09-00 10:57 PM EDT (US)    4 / 12
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...OK HERO THE PRO..(OR SHOULD I CALL U HERO WANNA BE???)
HERE IS THREE THINGS U FORGOTWELL I MIGHT FORGIVE U)
1. THE RANGE OF THE JANISSARIES!!!!!!SKIMS WILL BE DEAD AS SOON AS THEY START
FIGHTING
2. U WONT BE ABLE TO PRODUSE MANY UNITS COZ CONNONS WILL CRASH EVERY STINKING
BARRAK AND CASTLE
3. PALS R A DEAD MEAT FOR JANNISARRES
4. ONAGERS R EXPENSIVE ESPECIALLY UPGREAD AND THE R SLOW JUST PUT JANISS IN
SPREAD POSITION AND FIRE!!!!!!+CONNONS
ANYWAY I DONT THINK U PLAYED MUCH AND DONT KNOW NOTHING SO READ AND LEARN....

Shaddam Corrino
Forum Member posted 08-09-00 09:45 PM EDT (US)    3 / 12
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Tsar, those caps are really REALLY annoying........look to the left of your
keyboard and tap the "caps lock" key once to turn them on and *heres the
tough part!* AGAIN to turn them off!! Amazing isnt it?!
Your strat is ineffective against anyone over newbie skill level
unfortunately, no one is gonna let you sit in your base behind walls for an
hour while you make Janissaries.




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Sardaukar- the soldier- fanatics of the Padishah Emperor. They were men from
a background of such environmental ferocity that it killed 6 out of 13
persons before the age of 11.

GPA_Chooch709
Forum Member posted 08-09-00 07:35 PM EDT (US)    2 / 12
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i will play u and beat u with turks if u want me to...ZN in my sig...
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AIM: Chooch709, ZONE: GPA_Chooch709
~Elite Sponge~ & ~GPA Leader~
My Awards Page
Spongers Anonymous
Sponges Recorded Games!


HERO
Forum Member posted 08-09-00 07:10 PM EDT (US)    1 / 12
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Umm can you ever stop using the caps lock? Do you think people will pay more
attention when you us it? Well they don't, and it makes everybody have a
headace so stop!
And I have something to say to your topic. Don't say that is unstoppable
inless you play experts and have been playing this game since it came out
everybody. I can see you just got this game a few weeks ago and going through
the 'Turks are unstopable" stage. I belive this is the second stage for most
aokers. First being Byzantines rule then Turks then Franks and thatsI where
Greer is at I belive...

Well here I will tell you how I can stop that easliy. I make eskirmishers
with ongers(better yet seige ongers)in the back with some lc to kill your
seige. This force will crash you. Or if I'm brits I would just make ebows
with some lc(take out the bombrand cannons)and crash you again. Or I can do
what Greer does(make 75pals)and crash you also.

Now I hope you understand that everything has a counter. So stop posting this
now, and stop trying to be a Greer wannabe.

HERO


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Have no fear HERO is here!
[This message has been edited by HERO (edited 08-09-2000).]

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Is Castle Time important anymore??

Winston
Forum Member posted 08-09-00 04:56 PM EDT (US)
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I ask this question for it intrigues me to see how many people (including
myself) get 18-22 times with a fun flush and dont kill to get the 16ish
castle time anymore.
What is better? a 16ish castle time or a Fuedal battle and slower castle
time?

It depends.

Advantage to fast castle time:
Boom earlier
Always have better troop possibilities
Can get siege and knock out buildings faster

Advantage of slower castle time:
Can get more econ FOR a good boom, may not help.
Great battles in fuedal time now.
Can overwhelm opponent and not even need castle time.

What do you think?


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Author Replies:

Temulin
Forum Member posted 08-12-00 00:43 AM EDT (US)    14 / 14
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I doubt that feudal battles will be any more prevelant in the X-pak. For one
thing, the Archer and M@A take longer to make. Tower rushes, maybe, but not
full on flushes. I think that defending, and booming with a slow castle will
be more popular than the 16xx castle and dropping TCs everywhere.
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Zero
Forum Member posted 08-11-00 08:24 PM EDT (US)    13 / 14
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Were going to see another wave of brit players. Those elbows an moderate
sized groops will wreak havock on petards. So if you forward build have like
20 archers guarding it. That should be enough for those pesky retatds.

Aphroqueen
Forum Member posted 08-11-00 07:56 PM EDT (US)    12 / 14
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I did a little bit of numbers work in my thread about "Fuedal Booming."
I addressed the issue of defending against a castle attack with a stronger
Fuedal economy.

From what found, castle times arent as important as production ability and
getting your villager ratios on resources correct to maximize your VS of what
you intend to produce.

GPA_Chooch brought up an interesting thing about Petards and forward
building. I think that we will see alot more forward builds protected by
walls and towers (cheaper and not such a catastrophy if lost) as opposed to
naked TCs and Castles pushing the attack. We might see TCs, but it is cheaper
to kill it with petards than to build it. Another thing he failed to mention,
buildings ungarrison after they receive so much damage, so even few petards
will be needed to counter forwards bases that arent set back aways with
proper defenses.

Indeed, AoK:TC is gonna be a totally different game, akin to Starcraft vs
Broodwar.


GPA_Chooch709
Forum Member posted 08-11-00 08:58 AM EDT (US)    11 / 14
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problem is that when u are in castle, all u gotta do is run in 5 petards to
get rid of a TC, thats 300f and 100g for a TC...thats remarkable, if someone
builds a castle near you, its 9 petards to take it out, if u have 5 on hand
in case of ppl building in your town, and run them into a castle and then a
ram with 6 pikes garrisoned attacking a castle, its much easier to take out,
and it definately makes tihngs difficult for the foward castle
builder...maybe this mens you keep you castle back a little, or attack b4
they get to castle, so a flush will be the harder to counter no with the
xpack...you can destroy an unguarded castle town easily with petards and
tarkans...
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Myll_Slaghter
Forum Member posted 08-11-00 06:43 AM EDT (US)    10 / 14
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There is really no answer to you question, but as I have seen while playing
x-pac. Flushes are gonna be one of the most/best way to attack Or you can
pull off a 15min castle and overwhelm you opponent early. Both ways got theyr
weaknesses. So as I said there are no real answer, it all depends on the
player and the map.
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yin26
Forum Member posted 08-10-00 09:57 PM EDT (US)    9 / 14
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I would encourage you to watch the expert tourney being played out at
mrfixitonline. Many of the games aren't worth watching, but the two with
paranoia just posted are outstanding. Some things you'll see:
** Castle and Imperial times are NOT the best judge of skill. You'll see
paranoia waaaay behind in terms of age times but constantly booming and
forcing the enemy to make bad decisions.

** Superb methods for "surviving" that transition time during which your
opponent has superior troops (though not necessarily superior numbers, etc.).

That being said, most players lack these advanced skills and, therefore, NEED
access to better troops faster. But to answer the question posted here: If
you're good enough, Castle and Imperial times take second place to expanding
your own empire while containing the enemy's.

Finally, as regards the Flush, most examples of it these days are horribly
incompetent. A really good flusher can do tremendous damage even if he
encounters problems with boar etc. Most people simply do a hollow version of
the flush, though, so people have this impression that it's risky to do. It's
not risky...just takes lots of micromanagement and the ability to react very
well to a dynamic field.


SwiftAero
Forum Member posted 08-10-00 09:25 PM EDT (US)    8 / 14
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Certainly castle time is important. If you don't make castle I bet you have
lost. How fast you need to get there depends on what you opponent(s) are
doing. (Leave it to me to post the obvious.)

EC_Conqueror
Forum Member posted 08-10-00 07:46 PM EDT (US)    7 / 14
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Good question...
I usually worry more about Feudal timing than Castle. I usually do that cause
I like to pull off Fuedal rushes. I do however try to get to the Castle Age
as soon as I can.


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BTD_DEathTraP
Forum Member posted 08-10-00 07:29 PM EDT (US)    6 / 14
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Uh, Transocora...FLUSHES WORK 2% OF THE TIME AGAINST A GOOD
PLAYER?????????????????????????????? Give me your zone name, I want a
game....

Transcora
Forum Member posted 08-10-00 07:16 PM EDT (US)    5 / 14
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See, flushes work like 2% of the time when you fight anyone who's good, even
with offensive buildings. What's best to do is make like 10-15 archers, and
get 1 offensive villie, then try to wedge your archers between your opponents
woodies and the tc, so you can get most of em. Then hit anythin possible,
barracks, lumber camp, mining camp, houses, anythin to keep your opponent
losing materials. Meanwhile your offensive villie makes barracks, archery
range, stable, and as soon as you get to castle a castle, which basically
sets you militarilly, at least until he can fend off your attack, but if you
do it well enough he won't have enough wood to make trebs, and without trebs
he'll never take your castle down, so he's in a pretty bad condition.
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BTD_DEathTraP
Forum Member posted 08-09-00 11:24 PM EDT (US)    4 / 14
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Winston-
I do not think that either is better, that's why it is so debated. Both types
can cripple an opponent. There are two downsides to a Flush though. First of
all, there are so many things that can go wrong it, and if one of these
things goes wrong, you are done for. Such as can't find a boar, or your
opponent is expecting it. The second reason is that when you flush, you are
running on a very meager economy. Although you may take one opponent out of
the game, you are not helping your allies till later in the game because you
generally cannot castle till VERY late. On the other hand, when you go for a
fast castle, you can kill an opponent, plus you are aleady in the castle age,
so it is easier to assist your other allies. The downfall to a castle attack
is that it takes MUCH longer to complete than a flush. With a flush you can
pretty much destroy your opponent in about 5 minutes. (Because if you do a
good job, he will not reach the castle age) However, with a castle attack, It
may take longer, because his economy is usually flowing smoothly, as are his
allies, so he is better equipped to deal with you. The attack for your castle
attack will not come until around the 18 minute mark. By this time, he has
already castled, and may be putting up defenses and building an army.
That's just my thoughts.


Winston
Forum Member posted 08-09-00 04:44 PM EDT (US)    3 / 14
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Still, would you rather have knights or archers? is there ANY work done on
this directly? ie: resources lost, times.. etc.
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Trouble_4_U
Forum Member posted 08-09-00 05:09 PM EDT (US)    2 / 14
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Well Winston, that is the Age ol question. Pardon the pun. Do I feudal rush
or fast castle..... I think that a mildly fast castle 18-20 min with good
forward building is a tough one. That way u have economy going in case your
enemy feudal rushes u. A 16 min castle is great, but it leaves u a weak
economy and susceptable to feudal rush. With a 18-20 min castle you can then
get your econ booming and have your forward builds cranking out military.
Hopefully if you get flushed u have already hit the age button to go to
castle and can face the flusher with castle age units and seige.

Trouble_4_U



Trouble_4_U
Forum Member posted 08-09-00 05:07 PM EDT (US)    1 / 14
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Well Winston, that is the Age ol question. Pardon the pun. Do I feudal rush
or fast castle..... I think that a mildly fast castle 18-20 min with good
forward building is a tough one. That way u have economy going in case your
enemy feudal rushes u. A 16 min castle is great, but it leaves u a weak
economy and susceptable to feudal rush. With a 18-20 min castle you can then
get your econ booming and have your forward builds cranking out military.
Hopefully if you get flushed u have already hit the age button to go to
castle and can face the flusher with castle age units and seige.

Trouble_4_U

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A collection of the best strats ever part 1

Zero
Forum Member posted 08-07-00 11:53 PM EDT (US)
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Yes my friends the best strats ever! I the proud tradition of Greer, Lamer1,
and some of Tasar's posts. I present to you the best way to counter ongers!

1. Play byzantine
2. mass skirms and spears(never upgrage,they cost to much anyway)
3. attack only ongers that are deffened by heavy scorps.


Now, after that you will need to finish off your opponent. Here are some
helpful hints to do that.

1. send lone monks to face groups of archers
2. never send skirms against archers
3.make 75 palidins and send them against mass pikemen that are near tc's and
castles.
4. Never attack wonders that have a timer on them.
5. If you send your enemy supplies it will make him resign.
6. never kill his villagers or attack undeffended supply camps.
7. Always rush him in the dark age with your villies, go strait for the town
center.



And coming soon to a message board near you.

- the persian champ flood
- effectivly using viking palidins
- turtling with the goths
- massing war elephants
- massing malitia


Hope you enjoyed!


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Author Replies:

Sir Marf of Ans
Forum Member posted 08-11-00 01:21 AM EDT (US)    19 / 19
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Remember, the aztecs calvery in the xpac is going to be very wicked. And
don't bother building calvery archers with the huns, instead send a feudal
age rush of champs in. IT IS AN UNBEATABLE STRAT AND CAN NEVER LOSE!!!

EternalRest
Forum Member posted 08-11-00 01:06 AM EDT (US)    18 / 19
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I could have sworn the blade pointed inward. Have I been doing it wrong all
these years? Think of the embarrasment!! I wet myself just thinking about it.

christbearer777
Forum Member posted 08-11-00 01:03 AM EDT (US)    17 / 19
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Build Onagers to counter Elite Mangudai.
Always use archers to attack seige weapons.

tis a dandy and funny thread. :-)

Tonto_Isbla


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Zone- Tonto_Isbla
Heat.net- Isbla

Captain_N
Forum Member posted 08-11-00 00:15 AM EDT (US)    16 / 19
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How could you guys forget to back up your Frankish Paladins with Arbalests???
Duh.
Anyway, here's a good strat - If you are playing Britons, pick Saracens and
build nothing other than Mamelukes and Villagers. Then keep your mamelukes
back to guard your houses, and send your sappers out to destroy the enemy
buildings so your mamelukes can rush in unhindered. Mamelukes must be the
best unit, because they are the most expensive.


Zero
Forum Member posted 08-11-00 00:03 AM EDT (US)    15 / 19
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A few more tips...
1. If you paln to tc rush never use brits.
2. Remember, send tuetonic knights to fight ongers.
3. If you get attacked by cavalry hit this combo of keys,H-C-C-C-C-C-C-C,
this will be your best deffence
4. Never mine gold.
5. When playing undead make 60% mines
6. Remember, counter spell cost to blue mana
7. Skirmishers work great against massed scorpions and trebs.
8. Put your napkin in your lap when eating.
9. The knife goes on the left side of your plate blade facing out.
10. "Millitary intelligence" is an oxymonon
11. "Intelligent athlete" is an oxymoron
12. If you are pulled over be a police officer make sudden moves with your
hands.
13. Post off topic posts in fourms.


Hope you enjoyed these helpful hints! And remember guys, the purpose of these
post's is to help people learn the basic things in a humorous way. I figure
most newbies take your advice and do just what you tell them not to, so tell
them to do the wrong thing and it will work out


Soviet Hero
 posted 08-10-00 11:53 PM EDT (US)    14 / 19
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!LOL!
And don't forget this unstoppable strat also!! Pick Saracens make 75
paladins(Greers faverite) and make sure you do that within 3hours or it won't
beconcidered a rush!! Then send them all to his army of pikes(better yet
herbs). Those foot soldiers are weak compared to my STRONG SARACEN PALADINS!!!

HERO


Lohengrin
Forum Member posted 08-10-00 11:29 PM EDT (US)    13 / 19
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With Franks and Celts, never build Cavalry or Infantry, send huge hordes of
archers instead! They're almost unstoppable.

Sir Marf of Ans
Forum Member posted 08-10-00 03:11 AM EDT (US)    12 / 19
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And the Britions navy is just the best I've ever seen next to the aztecs!
They also have the best seige too.

Stabbon
Forum Member posted 08-10-00 02:54 AM EDT (US)    11 / 19
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ive been looking over that vike palidin strat and found it to be more
effective w/ the Saracens.

Sir Marf of Ans
Forum Member posted 08-10-00 02:25 AM EDT (US)    10 / 19
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And remember to build lots of HCs in the castle age, and never use the turks
guns cuz there slow and expensive, instead make there effective pikemen and
elite skirmishers along with there powerful onagers and there paladins for a
good feudal rush. IT IS THE MOST UNBEATABLE STRAT EVER!!! Don't bother
researching Gold Shaft Mining when your the turks cuz there bonus gives them
that for free. And remember to research wheel barrow with the vikings cuz
they get it for free. This is fun!
------------------
~Not only am I a Elite Sponge Paladin of the Teutonic Sponges, but I'm also
the Minister of Drunkenness of the House of Insanity. I love being psycho!~
I am the marf with many sigs.


Tsar_IvanIV
Forum Member posted 08-10-00 02:11 AM EDT (US)    9 / 19
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...I like this post ,man these ARE THE STRATEGIES!!AND LAMER1 IF U OUT THERE
CAN I CONTACT U SOMEHOW MY ZONE NAME IS Tsar_IvanIV_ AND FOR U PEOPLE MORE
POSTS COMMING...!!!!!!

icewall
Forum Member posted 08-09-00 07:45 PM EDT (US)    8 / 19
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hehe LMAO!
My 3 1/2 cents....
Don't forget, loom is only for wussies. That 50 gold you saved can buy you
1.1 extra archers or 3/4 of a knight. Who needs tough villies, you can just
make more anyway.

Killing game animals with your scout is a good idea, that way the villagers
don't have to carry the meat back.

Team games, why bother gathering resources? That is why you have a teammmate.
If you whine enough he will give you stuff.



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Zero
Forum Member posted 08-09-00 01:59 AM EDT (US)    7 / 19
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And now for the greatest strat ever!*drum roll*
!!!!TURTLING WITH THE GOTHS!!!!*croud cheers*

Here are a few important things to remember about the goths
1. never use less than 99999999999 villies to kill a boar
7. never use your uu against a chienies palyer or brit who are massing thier
uu's
5. never make infantry, it's to slow and expensive
9. make lots of bombard towers
3.2. if you play me set your diplomacy to allie even if i attack you.
2. always send your enemy's rescorces to give you that little star after the
game.
1. never aid your allie
4. never talk to your allie
5. alwyas surround your self with fortifyed walls
0. swearing at your oponent and using taunt #08 id a good way to make them
respect you
6. at the start of the game waste your towncenter, delete your cout and
attack with your 3 villagers.


mr_mikey_p
Forum Member posted 08-08-00 11:41 PM EDT (US)    6 / 19
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well, over the last 27 years, ive done some extensive research on this
game...heres my results
1. Trebuchets are best countered by town centers and sirmishers...knights and
light cav would be disastrous, as the averge 8 villie economy would not be
able to support such a unit, nevermind build a stable. 99% of all players
wont be able to support this gigantic force.

2.As in starcraft, most buildings are mobile, and should be moved
periodically, if you cannot do this instantly get rid of your game.

3.Elephants and horses eat viallgers, ues thats right, your own
villies...dont build any calvary your villies will be eaten.


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winner of "GPA_Chooch_709's most polite newbie of the week award"

Zero
Forum Member posted 08-08-00 11:25 PM EDT (US)    5 / 19
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Glad you guys enjoy it! I'll have to add on to it soon.

SiLent_SniPer
Forum Member posted 08-08-00 09:36 PM EDT (US)    4 / 19
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LOL
8. Don't EVER build castles, they waste your stone, build LOTS of bombard
cannons.




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quote:
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Know yourself, know your enemy. A hundred battles you fight, a hundred you
shall win
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Sun Zi
[This message has been edited by SiLent_SniPer (edited 08-08-2000).]


IClan_Emporer
Forum Member posted 08-08-00 08:07 PM EDT (US)    3 / 19
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I think that deserves an lol.



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Winston
Forum Member posted 08-08-00 04:38 PM EDT (US)    2 / 19
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lol <- tie Fighter.
LMAO <- Much better.



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I know I can write on this computer screen somehow. Now to sign this
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IClan_Emporer
Forum Member posted 08-08-00 04:33 PM EDT (US)    1 / 19
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LOL.



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I though being new but (good at aok) i might post here some x pert tips...

Slasher_Mantis
Forum Member posted 08-10-00 02:26 PM EDT (US)
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Having played a lot on the zone and i mean a lot over 400-500 games of aoe
/then aok i thought i might post a thread about what strategy will be able to
contniue after the x pac is being played and everyone goes to play that
Tip 1: Walling each others resources well it's not widely used at the moment
but i and other good/experts players use it.So you force him to use a certain
patch of gold/stone so that u can know exactly where to attack him.
Tip 2: Never castle early and don't attack early theres JUST 0 POINT IN
CASTLING 16 MINS TO NOT ATTACK UNTIL 23 MINS may as well castle in 23 mins
with more villagers.I can not stress that enough ok.
Tip 3: Never give allow you're enemy/enemys to build up a small raider force
of 3 light cavlry make great untis to kill a few villagers here and there and
cause havoc then run into the darkness only later to return and kill more  U
gotta love that one.:/ Hard to defend against.They just out run pikes/spears
Tip 4: Boom like a madman.All good players boom for all they're worth .I boom
to around 140-150 villagers then research anything that want.
Tip 5: Never waste you're resources in early, middle or late game on
pointless unneccessary upgrades like Heated Shot or Sappers or Shipwright
unless in very specific sercumstances.
Tip 6: Defend you're resources well enough to prevent a quick enemy castle
going up by them or a quick Town Center.
Tip 7: Rushing is unpredicable but if you're determined to do it.Research the
neccessary upgrades for it.
Tip 8: Be expecting some kind of attack in the early castle late castle or
whenever and plan the right counter untis if you are positive he'll send that
exact unit against you.
Tip 9: It is best to gather resources in preparaton for you're attack on the
enemy it's no good gettin to the castle age and having a stable/stables wih
no food or gold to create knights to attack with.That one really is annoying
:/
Tip 10: In Imperial age use trebs they annihilate anything from a range which
doesn't move just adequately defend them ok i hate to create 5/6 and lose
them because you didn't defend them at all!Thats like throwing 1000 wood /
1000 gold or 1200wood/1200 gold away!!!!
Hope this helps someone(well hopefully more than one person  ) Please feel
free to write comments about this it tooks me ages to write  and it would be
a shame if nobody responded to this.
One last thing though My moneys on walling peoples resources will get bigger
in The Conquerors  well it better do :/
No "Flaming here plz"
Author Replies:

Slasher_Mantis
Forum Member posted 08-11-00 05:43 AM EDT (US)    7 / 7
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Some people replied Thanks all  , Having tried flushing before I use 4
forward builders all on on tower building to the next and having won many a
time with the flush.I think people who don't understand the flush are the
easiest to pul it off against and if i see a oppurtunnity to kill the enemys
scout you can be sure that i will do that.
Also i always have my scout scouting ahead of my villagers for wolves or for
new enemy buildings.
Another Tip when you see the wolf run towards the villagers/(s) get the scout
cav to attack it loosing some hp before he injures you're villagers is good.
Fast Castling: Well i prefer to either go for a quick ,quick castle time i'm
talking 14 mins here with either chinese ,saracens or a feudal rush although
in team play games i go for a 17 min castle with 28 villagers +wheelbarrow
researched. And do a late castle attack on 23 mins with 5/6 rams Knights
Monks.
Also Eric Lui the point of my rams knights +Monks attack wasn't to kill the
enemy no ,no just to give me a chance to 1 steal his resources 2/ Stop him
from booming 3/Give me a chance to boom like a madman 4/ Get to imperial as
he will be no where near that i just use trebs to take everything he got
followed up with Champs or light cavalry they great for hunting villagers



BTD_DEathTraP
Forum Member posted 08-10-00 11:46 PM EDT (US)    6 / 7
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Soviet Hero-
You are correct in saying that expert flushers like to attack early. However,
you are incorrect in what you say after that. First of all, when a flusher
puts up a tower, it is always out of your line of sight. The only way you
would be able to find it is by scouting. Also, a good flusher sends at least
3 forward villigers. In most cases, and "expert" will send 4. When this tower
goes up, it will almost always be backed up by 1-2 spearmen, plus 3 or more
archers. No expert would ever send in 2 villigers without an escort. If this
situation has happened for you, I doubt the people you were playing were
experts. Go to MFO, and download some of the Clash of the Titans games. Look
at a couple of the flushes, and see.

Soviet Hero
 posted 08-10-00 11:21 PM EDT (US)    5 / 7
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Ben_number99, you need to read better. He said if you castle in 16mins and
not attack like intel 23mins thats a waste castling that early.
I have another tip. Lots of expert flushers like to attack you as early as
they possibly can. So if you ever see a tower by you always go explore that
area with ur scout. Chances are he will only have 2 vils with him and nothing
much else(good flushers mostly make achering ranges after the tower by the
wood). So send some vils over and kill the treat before it can grow. Thats my
advance. I have seen many guys lose cuz they didn't stop that first tower.
From there it just keeps growing.

HERO


Knight_Templar
Forum Member posted 08-10-00 10:26 PM EDT (US)    4 / 7
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Good points.
I'd like to add on point that I've been forcing myself to do. That's when I'm
in Castle Age and booming, start buildings multiples of all military
builidings, when wood allows between farming and new TC's. Not just two or
three , but at least four of each. Why? So when you do hit Imperial and have
stacks of resouces coming in, you can build that army asap. Set a common
waypoint for them. This also heaps if you get attacked first, you can pump
out heaps of counters really quickly.

I agree to some extent with point 2. I dont think its worth sacrificing your
economy just to get a very fast Castle time. What's the point, when you get
there you have limited resources. But, I disagree about not attacking early
in Castle Age. On land maps I like sending out some raiders, a mix of
pike/archers/skirmishers, just to annoy my opponent while I boom away. I
Castle on average around 17:30, and can usually hit my opponents base before
the 20min mark. Against rookies if the raid goes well I then go all out
Castle Age atack and finish the game there. If my raiders get wiped out, I
havent lost much and just continue happily booming away. And I've seen a
little of what units my opponent is making, so can start making counters.


Eric Liu
Forum Member posted 08-10-00 04:35 PM EDT (US)    3 / 7
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What if someone sets up trebs just one space outside of your trebs' range?
Being that your trebs have to sit behind a wall. From there, they can smash
the wall, and send in cav/infantry, and THEIR trebs and flatten ya.
Or what about galleons? The can move, fire, move again, fire, etc. to avoid
your trebs.

Last, what about ard s? These little buggers trebs with ease.

-Eric


Weisi the Great of Stavka
Forum Member posted 08-10-00 02:45 PM EDT (US)    2 / 7
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I love turtling myself. I usually wall in all the resources, 1/3 to 1/4 of
the map. I usally leave a small coast to stop transporter sneaks. I defend
until late late Imperial. I dominate the seas and use cannon galleons to
weaken the enemy. Then WHAMMM when I am super confident I delete all my
villagers and build up to pop limit and crush the enemy from three sides.
What is your view on this?
I get to Feudal at 10min with 25 villagers.
I build 12 towers and plenty of walls by castle.
Use defensive trebs to stop all Imperial attacks.
Loves getting relics and monk armies combined with onagers and Paladins. I am
a Teuton and Saracen player.

Ben_number99
Forum Member posted 08-10-00 02:40 PM EDT (US)    1 / 7
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quote:
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Tip 2: Never castle early and don't attack early theres JUST 0 POINT IN
CASTLING 16 MINS TO NOT ATTACK UNTIL 23 MINS may as well castle in 23 mins
with more villagers.I can not stress that enough ok.
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Sounds like you've never tried a REAL fast castle attack. IF you castle at 23
min, the actual attack will come in at maybe 24-25 min. That's a late
castleattack. A real fast castle attack comes at 17 min. It strikes your
enemy early, giving him no chance to defend. The weak part about it is that
you have bad economy. I see you like the late castle attack, but it doesn't
mean the fast one is useless.

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Horse Traps!

Nutty_Monk
Forum Member posted 08-10-00 12:53 PM EDT (US)
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I've just thought of a new unit, he's is specialised in setting up traps like
horse traps. He got a great attack bonus to Cavalry. He will lay the traps on
the ground so when the horse step on them, the cavalry units will be
destroyed.
What do u all think?

Author Replies:

the man called Horse
Forum Member posted 08-11-00 03:10 PM EDT (US)    4 / 4
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You sick b@stards, leave the horses alone!
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"my kingdom for a horse..."

Eric Liu
Forum Member posted 08-11-00 10:01 AM EDT (US)    3 / 4
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After the horse was KOed, the rider could be thrown off and lose like 1/2 his
HP, and then become an infantry man or something, instead of dying with his
horse.
[This message has been edited by Eric Liu (edited 08-11-2000).]


Captain_N
Forum Member posted 08-10-00 11:46 PM EDT (US)    2 / 4
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Say he put thin, pointy sticks in the ground. When the horses ran over them,
they would get thair stomachs all ripped to shreds. (The sticks could be
about as visible as bamboo stumps).
But it's too late for more ideas. THe x-pack is pretty much set in concrete
now.

Raz Dawson
Forum Member posted 08-10-00 11:22 PM EDT (US)    1 / 4
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How could the cavalry not see it?
Why would it die, couldn't hurt much.

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Little Known Strategies of the Greats. #7

Winston
Forum Member posted 08-09-00 11:52 AM EDT (US)
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Disclaimer: Standard one already mentioned in previous part of series.
Previously on LKSG:
Flanking
Cloning
Macros
Fear
Building(TC) defence.
Deer Herding.
and Now:
#7: Offensive Walling.

I have been pondering to mention this, since it may seem obvious but it
really is not. If you watch the Tourneyments that MrFixitOnline puts out or
any really greats going against each other, you see "Offensive Walling" being
used.

This is a really neat technique that is used in many forms. Basically, the
Offensive walling is preventing enemy units from appearing OR taking out
critical resources from your enemy.

A good rush always has a good forward base with maybe an archery, Barracks,
tower or two in it for initial smackdown ability. A good defense is to wall
up the entire forward base piece by piece with Pallisade. Lets say you have
an archery. Well, send 5-10 vills over and you can take out that archery
without taking the actual building down. Wall it up, all around the outside
put up pallisade walls. It is now taken out of action..

But you say, the archers will kill my vills. A Loomed vill can kill an archer
with a little help. 5 vills can kill 3 archers. Try it out! It makes defense
a bit easier.

So you have walled up his forward base, costing him the base and wood to go
with it. He still has an econ going, but wait.. this technique can help you
with this as well. Wall up his Econ points. A stone mine, a Gold mine, or
even berries walled up prevents enemies access to them. Wait, there is more!!
wall up the lumber camp, and watch his econ SLOW down a lot.

There is one final wall up that I have seen maybe twice. Lets say you get the
upperhand in DARK AGE. you have forced him to garrison his TC, but you cannot
get to his TC because of the power of its defences. Well...
Wall up around the TC just outside his range, and he will have to resign. He
is at your mercy then, totally econless and just sitting there.

I seen many wallups happen in landings, they land, build a stable, it gets
WALLed up, it is useless. Plenty of greats games have 4-5 buildings walled up
throughout.

If you like this series, please say so, if you dont, say so too.


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I know I can write on this computer screen somehow. Now to sign this
signature.
Author Replies:

Icefyre709
Forum Member posted 08-11-00 04:19 PM EDT (US)    13 / 13
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I really enjoyed reading all your strats so far - I'm not a very good player,
and although I doubt I'll be able to pull any of this off any time soon, it's
great to feel like I know a LITTLE bit about the game  Thanks for sharing
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ZONE: KGirl709
Winner of Chooch709's "Sexiest Forumer Ever Award"

Winston
Forum Member posted 08-11-00 09:38 AM EDT (US)    12 / 13
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Cheer Cheerful.
Thanks. sometimes some basic math helps. I gotta remember that more myself.


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I know I can write on this computer screen somehow. Now to sign this
signature.

Cheerful Chum
HGS Cherub posted 08-11-00 09:23 AM EDT (US)    11 / 13
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Do some math folks...
Consider this...the opponent sends 3 villagers who:
*+* Walk for 80 seconds towards your base
*+* Set up half an Archery range for 15 seconds. Till...

Then your 10 villies and smash these 3 villies to death in 15 seconds.

What you lost...
10 X 15 = 150 villie seconds

What your opponent loses...
100 X 3 = 300 Villie seconds
50 X 3 = 150 food. = more villie seconds
90 wood = more villie seconds

Who is losing out?

Cheers!


In this game, the defender holds the edge UNTIL the attack really starts ON
the defenders base. If the attack is foiled, the attacker will have a hard
time coming back into the game.



Paralyticus
Forum Member posted 08-10-00 04:24 AM EDT (US)    10 / 13
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ZheShiWo made a very good point: to counter a forward base with a lot of
villies is perhaps suicide (but I don't see much better alternative either).
You are not only risking the loss of a few villies, but also "delivering" the
Villger seconds hands down.
Hmmmm....

OTOH, if you don't do that, he may send in 7-8 Archers, which are enough to
kill an entire Villager population. LOL!... Great dilemma - and the rushed
guy is always in the losing side.

Gee, every time I sent in 6+ archers and maybe a few spearmen I won those
bloody games - and I was sometimes feudal against the opponent who had
Castled meanwhile. Only thing is that I had the Gold, the wood and the
territory, LOL!

I have to agree: it is better to wall in offensively (at the cost of some
Villager's lives + a lot of Villager seconds, plus the micro-managing. The
alternative is to die to a flush.



Sir Marf of Ans
Forum Member posted 08-10-00 04:06 AM EDT (US)    9 / 13
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We need more intelligent threads here. Keep the good stuff comming!

playa_playa
Forum Member posted 08-10-00 03:37 AM EDT (US)    8 / 13
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Very very useful and interesting posts. Keep them coming!!!
Oh, and you shoud do an anti-tc push strat soon or something if you didn't
already mention it =D


BigBoy
Forum Member posted 08-09-00 11:11 PM EDT (US)    7 / 13
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like the series too.
I check everyday to see if there's a new one!
gj
maybe you can but them all into one long post when you're done.
It's a ***** to have to search for the previous ones


CreamingSoda
Forum Member posted 08-09-00 08:51 PM EDT (US)    6 / 13
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Yeah Winston. I think i saw those games too. Great Flush defence then counter
attack, awesome!. After watching those it really shows how effective walling
up forwards is. Those vills can pack a punch too hehe I like your series.

Winston
Forum Member posted 08-09-00 02:04 PM EDT (US)    5 / 13
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Its either that, or die to a forward base. 10 vills is an example, since you
can of course, use troops to hold him off til you wall off.
I used vills because last night I watched a game from the Clash of the Titans
over at mrfixit and what, a great feudal battle in one game (32 min castle
was earliest) and a LOT of palisade offensive walling. WAS extremely
important to the battle.


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I know I can write on this computer screen somehow. Now to sign this
signature.

ZheShiWo
Forum Member posted 08-09-00 12:53 PM EDT (US)    4 / 13
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er..10 Villies to wall it of ? that means your villies will stop working for
a long time...so there by YOU lose wood...so in the end he only losses 1
range ..you lose the work of 10 villies at the critical stage in the game....
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On and on the Great River rolls, racing east.
Of proud and gallant heroes its white-tops leave no trace,
As right and wrong, pride and fall turn all at once unreal.


Winston
Forum Member posted 08-09-00 12:22 PM EDT (US)    3 / 13
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There is a lot of field to cover. I am trying to put the things "not yet
said" down first. "Little Known" is a key at least at first, then it may
expand.
Iclan, you can post these as they go on your site. It may be a NEVER-Ending
series... as the new Xpac may add even more. The "Turkey Shoot" is one I
figure will be neat.


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I know I can write on this computer screen somehow. Now to sign this
signature.

IClan_Emporer
Forum Member posted 08-09-00 12:17 PM EDT (US)    2 / 13
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Agreed, this is very intersting, and there is a LOT of ground for you to
cover in the field of tips and tricks, and I'd really like to see the end
result.



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Justin Cass, IClan_Emporer, IClan_Emporer@Hotmail.com
For downloads and original content, visit the Age of Empires Archive.
Get Paid For Writing Opinions on Games like AOK & More at Epinions.

The Noble Savage
Forum Member posted 08-09-00 12:04 PM EDT (US)    1 / 13
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I like the series. I hope there's plenty more to come.

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Little Known Strategies of the Greats. #8

Winston
Forum Member posted 08-10-00 11:25 AM EDT (US)
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Disclaimer: Standard one already mentioned in previous part of series.
Previously on LKSG:
Flanking
Cloning
Macros
Fear
Building(TC) defence.
Deer Herding.
Offensive Walling.
and now:
#8. The Mobile Base

Okay, this is really obvious in general, but you need to focus on what to do
to make this a reality. Basically, As you storm through your enemies you take
your bases with you.

Many times people think, hitting your home will stop your attack. NO NO NO,
dont stop for a little thing like losing your hometown. Why? Because you
should be able to rebuild at a moments notice.

We talk about having vills with your army to claim land, well consider that
your main base also can come with you eating econ as it goes. Instead of ,
say 5 vills, you take 15 vills with you. After you take over an area, build a
TC, military buildings, and pump out more troops to replace the ones you lost
and continue the battle.

You will be dropping bases as you go. Farming and Wood are the 2 most
immobile things you think you do, well consider that not only are you hurting
them militarily when you "Roll over them" you are also hurting them
economically.

Be ready at a moments notice to pack up your vills, or drop vills anywhere
for more farms and wood chopping.

I see way too many intermediarys and most all rookies sit and fight but have
a long way to go to reload thier army, and if thier home base is hit, they
have to withdraw and defend it.

The key to winning in this game, is offense. Defence is losing, so having a
mobile base concept in your overall strat will enable you to be on the
offense MORE than you are on defence.


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I know I can write on this computer screen somehow. Now to sign this
signature.
Author Replies:

Wrathstar29
Forum Member posted 08-11-00 07:14 PM EDT (US)    6 / 6
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I like this series you're doing here, keep it up!!
All I have to add is that even if you're up to the pop cap with villies and
military you should still go around building TCs with at least 10 villies.
That way if some 20 palidans manage to get into your base and rape your
villies you can pump more out near resources. I've seen too many battles
(using old war hero voice) where a person has an army that is rolling through
the map but a castle at home goes unnoticed and eventually kills the economy.
This is a very good point of Winston's, make sure you have the ability to
relocate!!

Keep up the good work Winston.


icewall
Forum Member posted 08-11-00 05:09 PM EDT (US)    5 / 6
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Good one Winston, I play the Goths a lot and I find that this strat is
crucial for them. My name for it is "Offense on the run."
Some additions that I use with the Goths.
1. When you are massing units in the field for an attack and your opponent
attacks your base, forget it. Unless you can easily and quickly defeat his
invasion force, don't even bother with it. Defend and delay as best you can
at home but don't send your invasion force into the fray. Attack his base
instead. It will take him time to destroy all your stuff, use it as an
opportunity to attack him and rebuild somewhere else. If you are playing
teams, try and mine out the stone and gold in you base as much as possible
but rebuild your vulnerable farms in your allies' base.

2. Treadmill crane is very important. Goths have no decent defences, your
only one is to build like crazy. Rax, TCs, siege workshops and whatever else
you can slap down wherever you go. This actually won me a game once. I was
getting hit hard by three opponents at once but I build like a mad man. The
time they spent destroying me gave my ally enough time to boom and lauch a
massive counterattack that took out two players and won us the game.

3. Bombard cannons - a lot of players don't like them but I consider them
essential for the Goth strategy. When a suicide attack takes out your trebs,
slap down a siege workshop and crank out the bombard cannons for long range
support. It reduces the wait for your castle to send a new treb. Just don't
use them against Brits or an archer happy opponent.



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"There is no fortress that can resist a determined attacker."
{ICQ 68763059}
Zone name: icewall3


playa_playa
Forum Member posted 08-11-00 04:39 PM EDT (US)    4 / 6
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I'm a rookie and I use this all the time..........
It is also important that remaining troops have some place to garrison in for
healing and protection. Thus, I would build a couple TC's for that sake (or a
castle if I have a surplus of stones, but that's unlikely). Also, if I was
playing anything but cav, I would be forced into doing this. Generally in a
team game, the map's to large to move your foot troops from your base to the
opponent's.

Anyhoo, great post indeed. Keep 'em coming, Winston!!


Scorpion
Forum Member posted 08-10-00 07:23 PM EDT (US)    3 / 6
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Another truly great strat, thanks for the post, Winston. One tip: maybe you
could post a link to your other LKSG's at the beggining of the post (where
you have the list). It would help finding these other great posts....

Tonto_Christopher
Forum Member posted 08-10-00 02:03 PM EDT (US)    2 / 6
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As usual another great post from our friend and fellow strategist Winston....
Bam!


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Come visit us at the Tonto clan and claim your knightly spurs!
www.geocities.com/tonto_clan


Beast52
Forum Member posted 08-10-00 11:34 AM EDT (US)    1 / 6
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Hmmm, I actually think that is a very good thing to do. Good post.
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Zone name Football_Beast

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?!? scorpions ?!?

Tsar_IvanIV
Forum Member posted 08-11-00 06:35 PM EDT (US)
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...I HAVE BEEN DOING A LOT OF TASTING LATLY HERE IS WHAT I FOUND OUT ABOUT
SCORPIONS:
EL=ELIVATION
I TOOK 1 HEAVY SCORP WITHOUT ANY UPGRADES:

FLAT LAND(EL2); +5 RANGE 100% DAMAGE
ON THE HILL(EL3,); +5 RANGE 125% DAMAGE
IN THE RAVINE(EL1,); +10RANGE!!!!!! 75% DAMAGE

MAKE CONCLUSIONS...
( IF U DONT BELIEVE ME JUST TRY IT AND U LL SEE)
Author Replies:

Tsar_IvanIV
Forum Member posted 08-11-00 07:45 PM EDT (US)    2 / 2
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..i am serious man ...i think that is a bag or something but i tried that and
the bolts contineu to go further than 5 sq sometimes even 11!!!!but scorps
suposed to be tight next to 1 el hill!

Zero
Forum Member posted 08-11-00 07:07 PM EDT (US)    1 / 2
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Ah the damage everyone knows, but what the f  ** is the range stuff?

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need advice on water maps

Eric Liu
Forum Member posted 08-11-00 01:28 PM EDT (US)
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Hi!
I was playing a water map (team islands) with some other guys today. My 2
teamates pretty much won the game- I never quite left the island, being that
I didn't know what really to do.

So, can y'all give me some advice on how to procceed on water maps? Like
should one castle late and get more stuff?

Is an early-mid castle attack viable still? Should I build a transport in the
fuedal age and put 2 vills on it and use them to forward build on someone
else's island?

Or, can you direct me to some good articles concerning this topic (been
unable to find anything about water in general- all specifics).

thanks,

-Eric

Author Replies:

Zero
Forum Member posted 08-11-00 08:18 PM EDT (US)    3 / 3
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On team islands this is my plan. we'll say a good 3v3 game. First have 2
people gush, and contain them. The 3 rd goes for a fast castle and then from
there you hve the other 2 advance whil the other person pumps out castlle age
ships. Continue to contain them and spread to any other islands. Once you
have them contained you get to imp and pound thier shore with cannon
galleons. I would recomond haveing al of your navy's gater and defend one
spot and you all land troops there. Also, the person not gushing should help
by sending rescorces to the gushers.
How's this look guys? I'm not really experienced in multiplayer games.


Wrathstar29
Forum Member posted 08-11-00 08:04 PM EDT (US)    2 / 3
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This applies for team islands mainly.
Have 3 docks on the shoar between you and other island and 2 on other side.
The 2 on other side are for fishing and thw other 3 are to buid galleys and
demo ships (mostly galleys). The only time I recoment fire ships are if you
don't wanna do too much sea stuff or if you're geing swamped by galleys. Get
on their island first with a baracks/stable/range and then tc followed by
castle. Having 1 maybe 2 of the players gush is a great idea because it keeps
them off your island and out of the sea. When you do gush, however, set the
ships to patrol their shors (4 groups for the 4 sides) so that a new dock can
be detected quickly.

As for imp battle get on their island and have bombard ships to pound them
and hit their defencive trebs. Have fun!!

If you need help gushing check out Cheerful Chum's scenario on it, it's a
great help!


Trouble_4_U
Forum Member posted 08-11-00 01:58 PM EDT (US)    1 / 3
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My advice depends on what kinda of water map. If you are playing islands,
then having a navy is almost a necessity since your town is exposed to the
sea. But in a game like Team Islands where your town is not exposed to the
sea, make a small distraction navy, then go for the landing on enemy turf.
Hopefully your enemy will take the bait and overproduce on ships, while u
make military and seige on his doorstep. Let your partners cover the sea or
forget about the sea all together. Remember that the enemies land is the
objective, not the sea. Lot's of players get caught up in Gushes and the
like, but I think they are way overrated espescially against someone like me
who is determined to get to your land and get their early. Don't let the sea
distract u from the ultimate mission....destroying the enemy's town.

Trouble_4_U

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Strategy Reality-Check

OneWingedAngel
Forum Member posted 08-08-00 00:15 AM EDT (US)
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Hey all.
I've been playing AoK for awhile... not too long, as my strategy may or may
not reveal. Basically, I'm looking for constructive criticism, because I want
my game to improve.

My strategy basically consists of an equalized Dark Age economy. I start by
researching Loom immediately. While it's researching, my scout cavalry
gathers sheep, I have one villager start building houses, another start on a
mill, and another on a lumber camp (I usually do High Resources... I know,
don't say it, I'm a wussy). After Loom, I pump out villagers in sets of five.
Five on my sheep, and another five on wood. With my original three, I have
one look for a choke point to hold, the other two take care of building
mining camps near stone and gold. Next five villagers out go for gold, and
the next five on stone. By now, sheep are usually gone, so shepards change to
foragers, and I go Feudal.

In the Feudal age, I grab five more villagers for food, and another five more
for wood. By now, I've started building farms around my mill and town center.
I still have two villagers in my town building, as well as one choking off my
area with walls and towers, which I occassionally reinforce with an extra
builder or two. When I have enough resources to cover advancing, plus some
surplus to use as "Panic Resources", I go Castle.

In the Castle age, I pump out another 5 villagers, and they aid in building
my castle. They are then used to finish building anything I need, and are
then put on whatever I need most (usually food). I start researching big time
here, getting everything I need. By now, stone is gone, and I send anyone one
stone to gold.

Finally, with heavy surpluses, I go Imperial, putting more villagers wherever
I need them. I finish off my research at this stage, with any choke points
well defended with keeps, bombard towers (if the civ I'm playing then has
them), and trebuchets. Finally, I start building up a large army. I aim for
around 30 of my elite unique unit, 30 paladins/cavaliers, 20 champions, 20
hand cannonneers, 15 trebuchets, a couple of pikemen, and occassionally
skirmirshers, depending on what the enemy has been using. After I am ready
and have researched *absolutely* everything I need, I group them by unit
type, and attack. Most of the time, I can wipe out an enemy, but I tend to
play people who are easily defeated by this sort of thing... as well as
computers, and it always works against them.

As you probably guessed, I play High Resources and 200 Pop Limit. Again, I
know I'm a wussy, it is not necessary to remind me.

Thanks in advance for any help,

~ OneWingedAngel



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"The beatings will continue until morale improves."
Author Replies:

OneWingedAngel
Forum Member posted 08-10-00 00:55 AM EDT (US)    3 / 3
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No, I haven't even touched the zone, but that's mainly because I use a free
internet provider, and it has... rather interesting features... I might jump
on sometime.
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"The beatings will continue until morale improves."

Knight_Templar
Forum Member posted 08-08-00 02:58 AM EDT (US)    2 / 3
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I'm no expert, but think I'm intermediate. Anyway, here's my humble opinions.
First, dont do loom first. Research that just before you boar lure, so
sometime after villager no 15. If you're not boar luring I recommend you
start. It is a bit tricky at first, but after many goes (and the occasional
dead villager), it becomes second nature, and will bring you stacks of food
If the map is a decent water one, go berserk on fishing boats, 10-15 of them.
Make some galleys to protect them (and then to attack your opponent's fishing
boats).

I think waiting till Imperial to build troops and attack is a mistake, and
probably will hurt you a lot. Attacking first is very important. Even if it's
just a few units, right after you hit Castle Age. At least you throw your
opponent off a bit, and maybe hinder his economy by killing some villagers.
If your attack goes well, send in a second wave, and as well some villagers.
Forward build a TC or castle, and some military buildings. Keep the pressure
on your opponent. Back home you boom hard. It is hard to micromanage, but
again just need practice.

Waiting that long to attack leaves you vulnerable to an attack. Walling of
shallows in rivers or highland, wont keep you safe for long. Villagers will
be transported over. Nearly everyone (on the Zone anyway) forward builds. You
need some troops to take out forward builders. Have your original scout,
and/or some new ones, continually scout your land for forward builders
(infinite patrol loops, and make sure they're on Agressive). They will come,
be prepared!

Its good your army composition is based on what your opponent has got. I
wouldnt research too many blacksmith techs, apart from the shooting ones,
until you're got a fair number of troops that need those techs. Even do them
while on the way to battle.

Oh and I just added up your army size. If you're playing pop 200, you need
way more vills, definitely at least 100.

If you're interested in a practice game, feel free to message me
Zone: _Knight_Templar or _Hospitaller
ICQ:47079623


Ace_Of_Empires
Forum Member posted 08-08-00 02:20 AM EDT (US)    1 / 3
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do you play in zone?
[This message has been edited by Ace_Of_Empires (edited 08-08-2000).]

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any tips to improve castle time welcome

mr_mikey_p
Forum Member posted 08-11-00 05:20 PM EDT (US)
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well my castle time now is down to 20-22 minutes, very slow of course, ive
asked this question before, and it actually helped alot, ive learned most
hotkeys, and build around 30 vils in dark age with extraboats if possible,
but here abiout these 16 minute castles and it blows me away, how is it
possible?i do just what everything says and people are still 4 minutes ahead
of me!.... whats wrong with me
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zonename war_maverick27, member of war advocates,
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Author Replies:

TOV_Maximus
Forum Member posted 08-11-00 10:37 PM EDT (US)    5 / 5
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First for me to get a 16 minute castle play chinese. you know why. Don't boom
until castle so feudle at around 25 vills.
Send your first 10 vills on food, next 10 on wood and the next 5 vills put on
food and gold.
Feudle straight away when you have 500 food. when you get to castle
immediately build a market and a blacksmith. sell your all wood for gold
until you have none left. buy some food back so you have 800 food and 200
gold adn then castle. dont build any vills in feudle. on the way to castle
build a barracks then a archery range and a stable. when you get to castle
build lots of vills and a small army of around 10 desent things. and send
them to there base and kill as many vills as you can. build a seige workshop
and a town centre and make vills and rams. Send the rams to there town centre
and protect it. keep building and army and set the gathering point at there
town. if you get them before they get there town center before they get to
castle you have won.
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Zone name: SpT_DeadMeat,
TOV_Maximus
I Play Death Match and occasionally play Random
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ICQ# 51630978

Captain_N
Forum Member posted 08-11-00 10:35 PM EDT (US)    4 / 5
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Well, now, it's not MEANINGLESS. Because, let's say that you Castle at 22
with 32 vills, thinking to do a strong early castle attack. Now, your enemy
Castles at 18, with 26 vills (numbers purely estimates). Now, if you are
trying to keep him in his TC with archers and rams, he will have 8 minutes to
get a force of knights.  A flush beats a boom beats a flush defense. You see,
it's all relative.
I normally tell people to download my tutorial, but it's for newbies, and it
gives you the means to get 22 minute Castle Times. You seem to know what you
are doing, just need to practice (like me).


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Member of the tonto clan.
The only thing funnier than a clown choking someone is a clown being choked.


mr_mikey_p
Forum Member posted 08-11-00 10:14 PM EDT (US)    3 / 5
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well today after a game i tihnk i learned something pretty important...castle
time is meaningless, as long as you have an edge over your opponent...i
castled at 27 minutes today WoWWWW...but sitll won...why cuz i had my enemy
held up in his tc with archers, and even though i spent my gold, i still beat
him by eventually have 20+crossbow and 6 rams in his town...he was done
for...thats what i LEARNED TODAY
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zonename war_maverick27, member of war advocates,
winner of "GPA_Chooch_709's most polite newbie of the week award"

Tonto_BobDoleKnows
Forum Member posted 08-11-00 06:56 PM EDT (US)    2 / 5
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I d/l a game with some DevilZ and improved my castle time by 3 min.
I cant figure out where it is now.....


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DDT_DriverX
Forum Member posted 08-11-00 06:53 PM EDT (US)    1 / 5
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the only tip i could give you is practice  that's what helped me after trying
what everybody told me

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Two useful tricks

Eumaies
Forum Member posted 08-09-00 01:41 AM EDT (US)
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Well, these are two totally different tricks, which i don't know how many
people do. I find them useful though.
1) In any game, use sheep to scout! it sounds stupid, but sheep are really
very useful at finding boars and checking black spots you missed.. If you can
handle the micro, keep a spare at home and scout with the rest. Use waypoints
to make them come home!

2) (in conjunction with 1 if you want) -- when expecting to get flushed by a
chinese player, if you can get to their boar with your scout and lure it far
from their home, or just hang around it till you see them coming andlure it
far away, you'll have won a major victory. Each second they can't dig into
that boar is another second you have to prepare for their feudal rush. (cuz
they need the food to feudal fast)


Author Replies:

Micr0boy
Forum Member posted 08-10-00 12:04 PM EDT (US)    8 / 8
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Oh i also like to pull this one on my enimies. In the begining of a game,
after I have scouted my area, got my sheep, I find the enemy. I then take my
scout and begin to kill his sheep and deer. Ohh it is hillarious if they are
busy and they find that they have no deer and they lost 4 sheep!
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Zone name: micr0boy
The typing in this post is true. The words have been changed to protect the
innocent pronunciations.
Winner of ~duk's Hero of the Month Award~

Beast52
Forum Member posted 08-10-00 11:12 AM EDT (US)    7 / 8
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Woah, there are some pretty EVIL tricks in here! I think im going to try some
of them now.... Especially when your enemy is planning to boat boom.
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Zone name Football_Beast

tonto_real
Forum Member posted 08-10-00 02:20 AM EDT (US)    6 / 8
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Hhehe....Winston... you alluded to the evil tactic which is the only really
good use for the Fish Trap. Your "scout" fishboat finds the big fish near the
enemy and builds a Fish Trap on the tile... then goes off to find another...
while you delete the trap you just built. Whoops! No fish!
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tonto_real, Emperor by acclamation, TONTO EMPIRE
(What's "tonto" mean?);)

for yor "Knightly spurs" JOIN US! TONTO EMPIRE @
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Winston
Forum Member posted 08-09-00 12:09 PM EDT (US)    5 / 8
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Nice. Can go along with Out4Bloods Evil Tips and Tricks.
that Celt Militia rush is a "Wolf Rush" and I have used vills to do it as
well. One time I had 5 wolves on my loomed vill. I just sent him straight to
thier woodies. I lost 1 vill, they may have lost 3.

Deer Killing, Boar luring away, sheep scouting, fish killing are all very
evil.


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I know I can write on this computer screen somehow. Now to sign this
signature.

Micr0boy
Forum Member posted 08-09-00 09:03 AM EDT (US)    4 / 8
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The most evil of all strategies!!! The celtic militia rush!
Look this may sound total newbie like but it isn't. What you do is be celts
on a gold rush map. After you scout your base, find the gold and the enemy
woodies. Build a rax and pump out 1 militia. Waypoint him though all the
wolves near the gold then into the enemy woodies. I did this vs
Tonto_czarempire once and he was messed up for the rest of the game.
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Zone name: micr0boy
The typing in this post is true. The words have been changed to protect the
innocent pronunciations.
Winner of ~duk's Hero of the Month Award~

HERO
Forum Member posted 08-09-00 03:25 AM EDT (US)    3 / 8
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Eumaies, I like ur idea about loaring the boar furhter away from the enemy. I
have personaly never treid it yet. But I have stool there boar by loaring to
me(it's very high on mircomange, so I do it only when I have the time too).
Thats are pretty evil.
I also have a little evil trick. I like to hit some wolves with the scout and
let them follow him, I bring the scout to some lone enemy villagers and start
killin.

HERO


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Have no fear HERO is here!

SiLent_SniPer
Forum Member posted 08-09-00 03:23 AM EDT (US)    2 / 8
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LOL, I have another evil one, steal sheep!! Whenever the host makes it an
explored game, I steal their sheep. Just get the 4 nearest sheep and send out
your scout to steall thge enemy's sheep. I did that on a rookie, and he
totally screwed up, his feudal time shot to he## (MWUHAHAHAHAHA)
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quote:
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Know yourself, know your enemy. A hundred battles you fight, a hundred you
shall win
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Sun Zi

tonto_real
Forum Member posted 08-09-00 02:59 AM EDT (US)    1 / 8
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Totally evil...hehe.
Interesting things to try. I've sorta scouted with my sheep by waypointing
while bringing them in but hadn't thought to use them this way after that...
and I particularly like your thought about luring (at least) the boar farther
away from your enemy's homestead.


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tonto_real, Emperor by acclamation, TONTO EMPIRE
(What's "tonto" mean?);)

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How bad am i??

mr_mikey_p
Forum Member posted 08-09-00 08:24 PM EDT (US)
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Iv had this game since christmas, i got it for my thirteenth birthday, but im
still a newbie!! why is it taking me so long, i try to play against better
players, but i still supersuck! what the heck is wwrong with me this is
getting embarressing!
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zonename war_maverick27, member of war advocates,
winner of "GPA_Chooch_709's most polite newbie of the week award"
Author Replies:

blue_knight
Forum Member posted 08-10-00 11:05 AM EDT (US)    12 / 12
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This game is so easy, just dont stop building or expnding until you rech your
population limit. In the dark age just mke like 30 viligers, send 10 on food
at first, then wood, and two on gold. Use ALL your recourses like hunting and
shore fish, and build town centers next to resources like a forest. Also,
when you feudal, dont research ANYTHING, just build a market and blacksmith,
and get 800 food ( you have a ton of villagers so you should spend like 4 min
in feudal)dont make any villigers in fudal, you should castle in like 18-20
min then build knights and go attack.

oreothecookie
Forum Member posted 08-10-00 01:09 AM EDT (US)    11 / 12
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mikey just follow wat everyone else has been sayin play against good players
or watch games they have played and read threw n e beginner guides u kan find.

now zero this ones for u

if u know hot to comfigure ur firewall u have to permit outbound & inbound
communications on both tcp & udp protocols
and u the ports u leave open are 2300-2400

i dk wat firewall u have xactly but see if u can make rules and make one
allowing empires2.exe to communicate wit the setup above and it should work
if it dont just post here i see wat i kan do


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TTFN
G'NIGHT
SLEEP TIGHT
DON"T LET YELLOW BEAR BITE

Ben_number99
Forum Member posted 08-09-00 11:05 PM EDT (US)    10 / 12
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personnaly i think most problem with newbies is that they don't know how to
start a game properly. First of all, DON'T MAKE MILITIAS!!!!! As a newbie you
think they're cool but they are completely useless. Secondly, constantly pump
out villagers. Your town centre should NEVER be idle in the dark age. NEVER.
Thirdly, attack with combined units. Don't just attack with one kind of unit,
combine your army so you won't get slaughtered. 10 knights and 10 crossbows
is harder to counter then 20 knights. The former you have to carefully send
pikemen and skirmishers in and try not to get your pikemen killed. The later
however, you just flood with pikemen.
The most important unit in the game is the villager, but it's also the most
vulnerable. When you're attacking always try picking off enemy villagers. On
the other hand, protect your own villagers by building town centres by your
resource sites. By building multiple town centres, it'll make you pretty much
immuned to attacks until the imperial age.

Well i hope that's going to help you. If you have more problems come to my
post
http://aok.heavengames.com/cgi-bin/aokcgi/display.cgi?action=st&fn=1&tn=19681&
f=,,1,20


Eric Liu
Forum Member posted 08-09-00 10:12 PM EDT (US)    9 / 12
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Well, I'd say that the order in which you ign your villies to tasks is also
VERY important.
For example, a person who puts their first 12 villies on food will obviously
gather more food than a person who puts only his first 6.

Now, just because the strategy guides said "x", doesn't mean you follow "x"
to the letter. Experiment some. Just because strategy x works for person y
doesn't mean it'll work for you.

Let's say strategy x tells you to put your first 9 vils on food, then the
next 6 on wood, and then 3 more on food. Well, you try this out, and you find
that upon reaching the fuedal age, you're short wood! So, you go back and
put, say 7 instead of 6 on wood.

I got this game about mid-July, and I've brought my castle down from a horrid
30+ min to a fair 17:00-17:30 (on avg). I read many ppl's strat posts,
starting with Captain Kidd's newbie guide. I made my own alterations (which
aren't perfect, yet) and voila!

One last thing, like everyone else said, watch expert games, and see their
build orders. House first? Mill early or later? When to put up a lumber camp?
When/if to put up a dock? The little things that save a 5 secs here, 3 secs
there, etc, are the ones that eventually make the biggest difference.

I'm no expert though, but this is my $.02 worth

Hope this helps,

-Eric

P.S. I'd be willing to play a game with you sometime.



mr_mikey_p
Forum Member posted 08-09-00 10:11 PM EDT (US)    8 / 12
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and transcora, id be glad to play you, i dont when i can, it usually when
noones home, but i put you on my zone friends list, totalk to you on the zone
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zonename war_maverick27, member of war advocates,
winner of "GPA_Chooch_709's most polite newbie of the week award"

mr_mikey_p
Forum Member posted 08-09-00 10:08 PM EDT (US)    7 / 12
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well zero, i try to play different civs as much as possible, but i often find
myself playing franks or britons, vikings, or chinese. I usually play in
rookie ro0oms, but often against =1600 rateds, when im 1460
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zonename war_maverick27, member of war advocates,
winner of "GPA_Chooch_709's most polite newbie of the week award"

Zero
Forum Member posted 08-09-00 09:59 PM EDT (US)    6 / 12
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It would help if you tols us what civ you paly and who your lose to. If you
lose to persian elephants theres something to counter that If you get gushed,
theres a way to fight back. We just need to know how you get your a** kicked.
Hey quick question, does anybody know a way I can bypass my firewall? I'd
stick with playing people on my LAN but there is nobody else that plays aok
on it :-(


Transcora
Forum Member posted 08-09-00 09:52 PM EDT (US)    5 / 12
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Name's TD_Transcora on the zone, play with me sometime, or drop me a line at
transcora@joymail.com and we can set up a date. I'm a good player, i'm not an
expert, but I can at least show you the way to the path of glory, and not
death.
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mr_mikey_p
Forum Member posted 08-09-00 09:43 PM EDT (US)    4 / 12
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thanks for the tips guys, but A, i dont know how ato download games, and i
usually have 30 vils no idle time in dark, but still get my ass kicked, even
with a twenty minute castle time
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zonename war_maverick27, member of war advocates,
winner of "GPA_Chooch_709's most polite newbie of the week award"

Transcora
Forum Member posted 08-09-00 09:01 PM EDT (US)    3 / 12
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Well, here's what you can do. Start a post asking expert/intermediate types
to play you and train you. You can actually learn alot that way, it's how i
taught my friend. Other than that, just hit H and C when your not sure
viliies are comin out, and keep economy good.
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Idle_villager
Forum Member posted 08-09-00 08:57 PM EDT (US)    2 / 12
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make a fire and use the book and box as starter!!
Okay, here's what I say

Go to the web page Minos mentioned and once you download the recorded games
try and see what they do for a start because, personally, the start is the
most important part. The longer the game goes the more room for mistakes,
which means the start is when you can't afford many.

Try to be able to have 27 villies + loom without any idle tc time and by then
have the 500 food to get to feud. I can't tell you exactly what to do because
it's basically based on a personal learning curve. Just watch as much expert
stuff as you can and practice against the computer to get your times better.

Side note, the hotkeys will really help you improve your game, learn them!!


KiNG_MiNoS
Forum Member posted 08-09-00 08:47 PM EDT (US)    1 / 12
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Go to www.mrfixitonline.com
Download and watch some expert games... try to analyze and learn from them.

DaRq_DarkJihad's "On the Road to Expert" series is also available there under
the "strategy" heading... This is a good series of articles which will give
you the basic concepts of good play.

Good luck to you

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Early Armies: Fuedal or Castle?

Alaric I
Forum Member posted 08-02-00 02:47 PM EDT (US)
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Is it better to create your army during the feudal age and then send them off
to battle just as you enter the castle age, upgrading your m@a to longswords
on their way to the enemy. Or does it make more sense to have a faster castle
time and create your army once in castle and then upgrade at the same time.
At the moment I usually castle around 20-21 minutes with an army of about 20
m@a, fully upgraded. I play the goths, so my plan is to usually rush with
those m@a and a few arches.
Alaric I


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Be careful of reading health books, you might die of a misprint.
Mark Twain
Author Replies:

Dead_Mythos
Forum Member posted 08-10-00 07:22 AM EDT (US)    9 / 9
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Some notes:
a) an idle military unit is as bad as an idle villager

Simply using the resources spent on the military unit on your economy, will
boost your economy even more, allowing you later more military units.

b) in castle age you can make Town Centers

Therefore you can expand your economy, safely,while you are making your army

So considering the speed factor from note "a" and the safety factor from note
"b" it would be better to make your army in Castle age.

However even better than that would be to make the feudal army AND USE IT
while you are expanding your economy to reach eventually castle age, and get
the upgrades while you already have a sizeable army





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Former iNsAnE_Centurio

Knight_Templar
Forum Member posted 08-10-00 03:56 AM EDT (US)    8 / 9
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I'm just an intermediate, and still like having a good Castle time, but like
to mix in an early Castle Age raid. Assuming no water separates me and my
opponent. Wonder what people think of this:
Dark Age 27 vills. When i hit Feudal, 2 more vills, build a market, then an
archery range next to my barracks. Cash in my stone and hit the Castle Age
button. Then asap pump out a combinattion archers, skirmishers and pikemen. I
try and get 8-10 all up. If i can afford and usually do, upgrade the farms,
and double bitaxe. I have most of the troops ready when I hit Castle Age
(usually 17:30), maybe wait another 1 min tops, and send them off on a raid.

Back home, boom like mad. When my raiders get to the enemy base I target
woodies and miners, and see what response my opponent deals. If he destroys
my raiders, well that's it for Castle Age attacks, keep booming doing mainly
economic upgrades and go for Imperial first, but making multiple stables,
archery, castle, etc, in preparation. When I've hit the Imperial Age button,
then I pump out knights, etc. But if my raid goes well, ah, rub my hands with
glee, build blacksmith, start military upgrades and go all out Castle Age
attack. Also send forward builders over with second wave.

I've had some incredibly easy wins against rookies with this. Against good
players, not so well. But, I've sometimes I've spotted their forward builders
and had men ready to kill them, or they've sent a couple archers over to raid
me and I've been able to kill them immediately.


Eumaies
Forum Member posted 08-10-00 02:18 AM EDT (US)    7 / 9
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Men at arms are so food-costing that i don't like to build them in
feudal/castle at all most of the time(that would kill my boom). Spears are
great because they're cheap and stop knights, and archers because they are
cheap and cost no food.
I'll build them in feudal and use them together in an early castle attack,
but the TC's in the current game are just too strong and so my archers rarely
last after a few battles.... hopefully in the expansion with weakened and
fewer TC's something besides heavy knights will be more useful to me in the
early going. Archers do make great harrassers, though, and with spear-cover
they can kill a few enemy knights too.


BTD_DEathTraP
Forum Member posted 08-09-00 11:11 PM EDT (US)    6 / 9
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I am a pretty experienced gamer on AOK, and have tried just about everything.
My take on when to build an army is:
If you are planning on hitting someone with an attack in Feudel you will not
be able to completely destroy them. So generally, attacking with 20 M@A at
the 21 minute mark is not that good of an idea. Say you are playing against
an equally skilled player, who goes for a fast castle. He SHOULD castle by 18
minutes, if he at least a rook. Then by the 21 minute mark, he should have a
total of 3 TC's, or if not that, an army of 5 or so knights. Since you lack
Rams, you will not be able to deal with his TC's.

Alternative strategies would be this: Feudel at 11 minutes or so. Once you
hit feudel, put 12 Villagers on Food, 5 on gold, 3 on stone, and 3 or so on
wood. At the 15 minute mark (generally a rook or inter will not begin
castling before this) him with a force of 8 men at arms, and tower up his
wood/gold/farming. By doing this, you simply harrass him a little, and
hopefully beat him to the castle age. When you castle, you can finish him off
with Rams.

An even better strategy would be the Gutter_Rat flush.

One of the most effective strategies, however, is a VERY fast castle (under
16:00) then knight rushing with rams. Oh well, just play around and see what
works best for you!


Brad4321
Forum Member posted 08-09-00 10:26 PM EDT (US)    5 / 9
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You could wait to castle, but if you get flushed against a good player your
doomed.

Eric Liu
Forum Member posted 08-09-00 10:22 PM EDT (US)    4 / 9
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I'm no expert, but...
Wouldn't it be more efficient to build your army in the castle age?

I mean, you could 1) build 10 M@A in the fuedal age and nothing else, or 2)
build l-swords, knights (maybe) and rams SIMUTANEOUSLY in the castle age,
saving considerable time. Also, in the castle age, your econ is doing better,
and you can build these units faster. Just make sure you get that forward
base by the time or soon after you reach castle. Too much delay will lose
your advantage.

Try to build a few skirms/spears in the fuedal age- goes a long way to
stopping a small knight or archer/x-bow rush targeted on your poor vils.

I usually build a barracks in my home town, and first a stable at my
enemy(s)' town. Then, if I'm already in castle, a Siege Workshop, otherwise
another Barracks, to be followed by the other building.

Anyway, right at castle, I click knight 4 times. Soon after, I start at my
forward barracks, and the M@A upgrade at the rear one. Also, I start a ram;
all the while increasing vil pop.

In the end (about 22-24 min, depending on a number of factors), I'll have
about 12 l-swords, 4 knights (completed earlier than everything else- used to
harrass vills), and 3 rams (used to 1st TC, then military buildings).

Upgrade wise, I usually have the infantry/cav armor and sometimes their
attack upraded to the first level.

-Eric


tex
Forum Member posted 08-09-00 10:09 PM EDT (US)    3 / 9
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build an army in fedal and upgrade them in castle
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Aphroqueen
Forum Member posted 08-02-00 07:28 PM EDT (US)    2 / 9
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I would build spears and archers instead of M@As. Use the food to speed up
your castle time. If your opponent castles before you, the spears prevent you
from being pounded by knights. The archers will do the real killing. Once you
get to castle, crank out a hand full of knights before anything else.
Infantry civ or not, knights are just the strongest early castle unit in the
game.
So build up and harrass in fuedal while planning on a sluggish castle attack.
After you get the first few knights out in castle, then make make plans for
your infantry flood. This is where your 10+ farms kick in and you can make
villies and Infantry at the same time without really sacraficing either/or.

I'd make 2 archers to 1 spear in fuedal. Spending to much food earlier than
17-18 minutes on large scales can really hurt your econ. Use the food for
castle research and villy prod.


Brad4321
Forum Member posted 08-02-00 03:14 PM EDT (US)    1 / 9
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Usually when I play goths I will take about 10 m@a into the enemy base on
feudal (not rushing since it is about 15) and then in castle make about 2
rams 20 longswords. I wouldn't worry about stone mining for a castle, unless
you are against a archer dependant civ (brits). Just keep flooding the enemy.
If you knock a whole in their wall (if you let them build 1) put about 5
crossbowman so they can't complete it without military backup. You could wait
to castle but don't.

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The best strar for british

Tsar_IvanIV
Forum Member posted 08-10-00 02:25 AM EDT (US)
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1. MAKE 100 ELBOWS
2. SHOT ACORDING TO THIS PLAN:
****
-> -> -> -> -> -> -> ****
****
3. DONT MISS
4. KILL
5. WIN
Author Replies:

Sir Marf of Ans
Forum Member posted 08-10-00 02:46 AM EDT (US)    1 / 1
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Parity of lamer, tzar, and greer combined. Remember for this strat to be more
affective take your 3 workers that you start out with (don't bother building
more cuz you need the food for the LB men) then put them all on food. Then
when you castle in 2 and a half hours, put them all on food. Then Gold, then
rock. Finally build a castle and start to pump out LBmen till you hit the pop
cap of 210. Then upgrade them to elite and research all the infantry upgrades
at the blacksmith. It's a great feudal rush tactic and it only takes you 5
and a half hours to pull off. And your enemy will ignore you cuz your so
pathetic looking and then you send in your 213 1/2 LBmen and longbowmen to
take him by surprise. Then build 75 paladins and build your offencive TCs
AFTER THE 75 PALADINS in the feudal age to shock your enemy. This is a great
strat for the Turks if you can pull it off.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Help: Counter for Massed Longbows

Winston
Forum Member posted 06-09-00 08:53 AM EDT (US)
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First, There are sometimes when you cannot prevent massing.
I play with a group of players and a lot of them turtle, so in team games,
you will get massed troops.
I am VIKINGS.

How do I knock out massed elbows? I mean 50-60 of them. ESkirms are eaten up.

Some strats that have worked for you, or you think will work would be good.

Author Replies:

JKiller
Forum Member posted 08-10-00 00:32 AM EDT (US)    72 / 72
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On the Vikings vs. Frank scenario, any smart player will that Vikings are an
INFANTY civ. The Frank has the necessary means to dispose of this threat with:
1) Cheap castles

2)hand cannoneers and throwing axemen for pikemen

3)maybe even...monks?

So viking vs. franks is not really that balanced at all and franks just kick
vikings anyday of the week if handled by experienced players.

On the other hand, Saracens are the obvious counter-civ for the Franks with
an camel oriented army to protect arbalests.



tex
Forum Member posted 08-09-00 10:14 PM EDT (US)    71 / 72
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ongars skirmishers and light calvery

Winston
Forum Member posted 08-02-00 02:51 PM EDT (US)    70 / 72
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Man, did I have a blast the other night fighting massed chucks supported by
champs. Nasty.
A teamate was britons.. and he massed elbows and hit them and with my zerks
for support. We killed the entire wave pretty easy.. however, the nasty thing
was you cannot really ATTACK well with elbows against a castle. When we hit
his buildings, our attack faltered.

It was also real nice to mass produce skirms and fight with them against the
chuks.. They did more damage than I would have expected. they killed chuks
left and right. Pikes killed the skirms though


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I know I can write on this computer screen somehow. Now to sign this
signature.

WCSiNx
Forum Member posted 07-17-00 05:25 PM EDT (US)    69 / 72
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The key to killing Elbows is getting position.
A force of purely elbows will die easily to a 3 wave attack of Lt Cav
followed by Skirms followed by Onagers. Always attack with the fastest unit
first and the slowest last. The Lt Cavs let the Skirms move into position and
the Skirms let the Onagers move into position. If you do this correctly,
you'll lose about 1/2 the res of your Brit opponent.

-WCSiNx


Raze
Forum Member posted 07-17-00 01:29 PM EDT (US)    68 / 72
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The Lbow combined with Onager, Scorpion, guarded by Pike, Flanked by Cav, and
healed by monk is a hard combined force to beat... It takes a combined force
to do a good job. I've found one thing works well, but you must face it, any
effective counter will cost money. Try killing his pikes... Hit em with
scorpions, onagers, or even arbelists... You lose many of these troops to the
lbowmen, but once the pikes are down you can hit them with your horses. I
hate to say that if you have frankish paladins and just throw them up against
the lbowmen with pike men blocking you must out number them big time. Without
anything to tie them up, the paladins or anything else can crush the onager,
scorp, cav, and elbows that where hidding behind the pikes... Also throw in
the skirms to "skirmish" with the lbowmen breaking them up, and distracting
them, saving a lot of your pike busting army... And the Treb thing sound good
against an invading Brit army, but would be hard to put onto a defending Brit
army... Brit players note that... The lbowmen are really good at busting up
invading villagers, and really slow down an enemy advance.. And if you have
lbows scattered all over, you'll pull thier army appart allowing a strong
focused counter attack to break them... Face it, the Brits kick!!!!

Winston
Forum Member posted 07-10-00 09:13 AM EDT (US)    67 / 72
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A few things then:
1 on 1 a eskirm beats a elbow?? true false?

Take your combo of 20 LC, 30 pike, champs etc..
Can they beat the 1 unit massed elbow?

I usually hit with zerks/arbs/trebs and sometimes add pike for good measure.
Elbows massed hurt this combo and I mean really.. all infantry die to
archery(cept maybe some fast celts). The trebs will take out the elbows...
but I will lose a large portion if not my entire set.

elbows suck in general against franks. A frank player should kill a briton
player any day of the week. Pal/Axemen can basically hurt brits big time. Yet
they cannot hurt vikings that much... since vikings have a zerk/pike combo
that will kill it. Then again.. vikes will die to briton player if they play
right... wait a minute.. this is BALANCe.

Why does this question keep comming up? because it is used a lot and people
see it more than people like to admit.


Knight_Templar
Forum Member posted 07-09-00 10:46 PM EDT (US)    66 / 72
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I beat a Brit recently just charging in more skirmishers than he had longbow.
I was low on gold, and built up 30+ skirmishers, set waypoints for my archery
ranges into the battle and queued more. Wiped one lot out good (about 20 i
think). He attacks with only longbows (and a couple monks) again a few more
times, the skirmishers wiped them again. He was a duffer just running
longbows, a few cavalry would have hurt me bad.
I've just had a couple games as a Brit and if all goes well, will run an
archer block, 25-40 strong which includes about 1/3 pike, another unit with
small number of champs say 10 or so, and a small cavalier block in reserve
(10 max). And of course couple trebs, monks, and vills. IMHO any one unit
army is easy to beat with just one unit itself, Frankish paladins maybe the
exception. But combined arms is the way to go, you actually have to think,
and its a lot more fun to play too.


Enriquillo
Forum Member posted 07-08-00 08:54 PM EDT (US)    65 / 72
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An E-skirm needs to hit an Elbow 7 times, while an Elbow needs to hit an
E-skirm 12 times.
Oh, and you're saving 40 gold per unit. Screw Elbows, useless pieces of....

Brit players are often so predictable!

Ofcourse, if their economy is twice as big as yours, it doesn't really matter
what they throw at you, they'll win anyway.
No strategy needed then, they'll just go for quantity.

------------------
It's never a pretty sight, some will implode, some will explode, but all will
try to take you with them.


Fully_Completely
Forum Member posted 07-07-00 08:33 PM EDT (US)    64 / 72
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Whoever brought this thread back to life must suffer.
The best way to counter massed elbows is onagers. One shot from one onagar
takes out MANY elbows all in on shot.
Imagine what 8 onagers can do.
Don't send the Onagers alone though. Have them protected by something.

------------------
Fully_Completely, as featured on The Great Q's "Forumer Play-on Words IV!"
thread :)
Winner of Alexander's "Most Desperate for an Award" award!
Winner of Cherub Dimitrios' "Most hillariouse drunk talk of the year award"!
Im so proud.


The Noble Savage
Forum Member posted 07-07-00 05:12 PM EDT (US)    63 / 72
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As strange as it sounds, the best counter for massed longbows are arbalests.
Use a wave of 10 or so LCs to buy your arbs time to get in range, then
exchange blow for blow. Bring up some onagers once they thin out some.

zer0cool
Forum Member posted 07-07-00 04:13 PM EDT (US)    62 / 72
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60 lbow is much less scary then 40 + 20 pikes. With 60 lbow, just charge in
20 Pals, and Pals will come out. With that 20 Pikes, the Pals will be
stopped. Just remember, try something that can go to longbow FAST. Stop on
front of longbow, even Pals will die. Try a lot of skirms, i mean A LOT at
the same time. It is really bad when a good Brit player brings not only
Longbow but Cavs and a huge number of Pikes. A combo like that is
unstoppable. Some time you need to just Charge in your own units and Orna
both enemy and your own down... This is war, dont fear loosing units.

Dead_Mythos
Forum Member posted 07-07-00 12:49 PM EDT (US)    61 / 72
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Some notes:
1) Elbows and trebs are the second most immobile army, after scorpions and
trebs

2) Elbows need to be in great numbers in order to be effective.

3) The military goals in AoK, as in most RTS's games is the enemy's economy,
not his military units.

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Former iNsAnE_Centurio


superduck
Forum Member posted 07-07-00 11:04 AM EDT (US)    60 / 72
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I normally play as the Franks and I've encounterd massed longbowmen once and
that once I had a mass on throwing axemen and a few horses and all I know is
that I kicked his rear end.

Idle_villager
Forum Member posted 07-05-00 11:37 PM EDT (US)    59 / 72
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I'm too lazy to read all the posts here so if I repeat one shoot me
Usually, a person will get really proud of their massed Lbows and want to
manage them instead of having the computer auto-target. Thus, they can only
kill off one unit at a time, despite how many there are. Thus, the answer is
pretty simple.

If they don't do what I said above you just gotta get them to auto target a
ram and run in with champs to do the dirty work. If they aren't
auto-targeting then you just throw about 20 champs at 'em (get the attention)
fill in gaps with pikes. That's just distracting the player, your orgs are
comming in with the actual attack..

The way you tell if they're auto targeting is by selecting all your units and
seeing if they only die off 1 at a time. If more than one dies off at a time,
they're not, and it's time for the rams.


BTD_DEathTraP
Forum Member posted 07-05-00 10:53 PM EDT (US)    58 / 72
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The best way to be a massed group of one type of unit, is with a massed group
of your own units. Assuming that he has the time to build that many Elbows,
you should have time to get a good sized army too. A good idea is to have a
mix. Try to get about 20 Cavs, 30 Skirmishers, 20 Beserks, and 5-10
mangonels.
Chances are he is not gonna auto target the Cavs and Berskers, so what u
wanna do is send in the Skirms first, then attack from the sides with the
Cavs and Berserks. This will spread his army out, which makes it much easier
to kill. The Mangonels also help, because they can kill 5 Elbows every 2
shots.
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Winston
Forum Member posted 07-05-00 02:22 PM EDT (US)    57 / 72
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Hmmm...
So, basicaly a eskirm flood? not bad Idea, I tried this, but if you skirm
flood, you die quick. You have to send them massed in at least 15 troops per
group to do effective hits one a 50 unit elbows. I would send 30-40 eskirms
and then flood to the point with 10-15 archeries. then you will get champs...
guess what, champs die quick too. heh.

The whole point of this is to GET those elbows gone to move in your other
killing troops.



uncleroggy
Forum Member posted 07-04-00 02:35 PM EDT (US)    56 / 72
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Winston,
I don't have time to reread 50+ posts, so some of this may be redundant.

This should be easy to do against a turtle and the brits really lack much
offensive power other than champions anyways.

1) Build 8-10 archery ranges close to the area where you will be fighting.
Put their set points in a group so that new skirmies will collect together.

2) Build some trebs and put them under a hot key. The number will vary based
on your pop cap, enemy force mix and the additional troops you want. I
suggest at least 4-6.

3) Build the rest of your army with a large component of elite skirmies.

4) Queue up your archery ranges full of skirmies so that new troops pour out
once you start taking casualties.

5) Move up your army and get your trebs into position as soon as possible.
Then microfire your trebs into the elbow formations in support of your
skirmies. Each hit is a kill.

6) Keep collecting groups of skirmies and rush them to the from line.

7) Watch in happiness as those elbows disappear. At 45 gold a piece, your
opponent will soon run out of gold. Also, elbow build times are very slow
compared to skirmies and can only be built in castles.

8) Move in with your troops and destroy his base. I suggest taking out his
troop generating buildings even before his casles, as your opponent will
likely switch to champions.

Have fun.


LI0N
Forum Member posted 06-29-00 10:26 PM EDT (US)    55 / 72
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Don't know if anyone said this, but you have to send in twice as many FULLY
UPGRADED skirmirshers. You can make this better by sending like 10 LC first
to distract the Lbows, then send in the skirmirshers closer and then he's
really dead.
Hope that helps

Lion


Cobra2000
Forum Member posted 06-29-00 09:40 PM EDT (US)    54 / 72
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Don't let them mass up. Otherwise, do to less-than-perfect playtesting on the
part of ES, YOU WILL LOSE TO LONGBOWS.
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These members have won my Super-DUper Great Post award:

Sting62
icewall
WoollyMammoth
yin26


AudioKing
Forum Member posted 06-29-00 09:37 PM EDT (US)    53 / 72
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If you ever get to a game where someone has the ability to build up 60 or
more elbows... the most effective way to deal with them is building keeps --
you know, the upgrade for the tower?? -- give them architecture and LOTS and
LOTS of trebs for protection against his trebs, and for killing the elbows at
a distance. I shouldn't need to mention to always have the keeps fully
garrisoned. Why keeps? because they have 11 range if you are playing with a
civ that has bracer.

monkey_manII
Forum Member posted 06-29-00 12:07 PM EDT (US)    52 / 72
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Everything which effects archers also effects skirms (I think even the atk
bonus that skirms get) unless stated otherwise (for example, brits don't get
+2 imp rng on e-lite skirmishers)
When I said atk so they could all shoot at once, I neglected to tell how...
Just tell the skirms to move near the lbows, until you think they are all (or
mostly) w/in rng, and then tell them to atk, hope this helps


soup or man
Forum Member posted 06-29-00 09:26 AM EDT (US)    51 / 72
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no.
skirms and archers always spread out in a bit circle when they attack.

archer upgrades affect skirms.


Winston
Forum Member posted 06-29-00 09:06 AM EDT (US)    50 / 72
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soup: Stop continuing your little flame bait fun.
--

As to the situation where skirms did not work,
Champs backed up by large numbers of elbows. for some reason large amounts of
eskirms want to spread out to attack, and when they do, they are picked off
by the elbows. He was entrenched and the skirms did damage but while my zerks
could not reach his elbows or stall his champs, his champs could maul my
skirms too. Only when I got the trebs did I break it.

What armor upgrade affects skirms??


soup or man
Forum Member posted 06-29-00 08:16 AM EDT (US)    49 / 72
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Psychotic_Mother,
thanks for reading the first half of every post i made in this thread. if you
would read the rest of any of them, you would see that i also suggest using
the search feature. its not just some kind of made-up hallucination, that
little button that says "Search" really does work folks! now lets try to use
it.

monkey_manII
Forum Member posted 06-28-00 10:47 PM EDT (US)    48 / 72
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Glad to hear the trebs worked, just goes to show how weak a one-unit army is
after a bit of thought, even building siege can take em out :-) [edited] (if
you play a civ w/bombard cannons, use these instead, with a bit of
distraction, the things are so hard to see...) [/edit]
By the way, as an afternote, what kind of situation were you in that e-skirms
did not work? I did some testing in the scenario editor, and vs a friend, in
every case the skirms did quite well vs the elbows. I did find one case in
which the longbows did unusually well, and that was in a choke point, where
the skirmishers couldn't form up to get their shots in all at once, and this
dilemna was quickly solved by simply moving them into the choke point, where
all the skirms could shoot at one time... Also, if the lbows are backed up by
pikes, then use arbalests at a safe distance (read: out of range of any
longbows)

Remember even if you lose all your skirms, and he the lbows, it is much
easier and cheaper for you to rebuild than him, he needs castles, more time,
and lots and lots of gold, while you need a few seconds per-archery range,
and nearly no time at all, so a second column of lbows vs your skirms does
not mean they won't stop, it means he has used up ton's of gold killing you
wood and food, and, the second (or, with some players who seem to be great
economically, but insist on one unit, the third or fourth)

Its easy to get frustrated in situations like this, I once played this guy
who made nothing but mangudai and trebs, he somehow managed to get enough
gold to make about 8 waves of 40 or more mangudai, and after the 3rd wave, I
got frustrated, the thing to do here is just set a gather point, and look
elsewhere for something to watch (bug him with your starting scout or
something :P)

I don't have time to make this post human-readable at this point, might do
that later if there is any interest


Winston
Forum Member posted 06-28-00 11:08 AM EDT (US)    47 / 72
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I had a good chance to get on against massed elbows. Last night, vikes vs
britons. It was a stalemate and my eskirms did not make progress... but my
5 trebs WIPED them all out. while they were busy hitting my ezerks vs champs
battle... my trebs hit them and blew them away. hitting all the massed
concentrations first I was able to hit them with no loss of trebs. This
allowed me to break through... and find another massed column of elbows. sigh.


He eventually resigned. So, the moral, trebs work too.


Psychotic_Mother
Forum Member posted 06-27-00 03:35 PM EDT (US)    46 / 72
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soup or man: some people aren't looking at this forum every single day and
might not have seen that many of these questions; i know i haven't.
i've seen many posts saying use heavy scorpions or seige onagers. i have a
few things to say to them.

The point of defending is to destroy the attacking army and try to minimize
the cost of your defense force. A small example is a group of 10 paladins
attacking. i make 20 pikemen. let's say i win (i'm too bored to see if I
really would win). who spent less resources? i did. i am successful.

Now using only siege against elbows will cost you a s***load and will be shot
down really fast unless in large numbers, whereas you are out of resources
and the opponent just makes more inexpensive elbows.

What you need to think of is what a good unit(s) would be against everything.
Let's say a guy has 100+ elbows, 40+ pikes, 30+ cavaliers, around ten onagers
and around 7-10 trebuchets. How to counter that?

1. you send in light cavalry and see his entire army (by sheer luck)
2. you send in pals that are killed by pikes
3. you send in pals and champs that kill pike but no more
4. you send in elite skirmishers that are killed by onagers

see what I'm getting at? send in all the counter units-
pals, pikes, champs, archers, skirms, onagers, (persian elephants if you are
persians but no champs?) at once

it'll be one helluva bob's your uncle frankfest but you should come on top,
so grab a few trebs and rams and head for his town.

------------------
People say I'm psychotic.

I say I'm special!


Radiskukll852
Forum Member posted 06-27-00 03:14 PM EDT (US)    45 / 72
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2 seige onagers comming in from opposite sides will level the group
instantly. I did this to one britians player and it saved me the game.
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Convert to Christianity!


Burger007
Forum Member posted 06-27-00 12:39 PM EDT (US)    44 / 72
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Try more massed elbows
Onagers are the way to go. Distradt them with cavaliers or something to draw
fire, then have onagers surround them in groups of 3 or 4. They cant take out
all the groups at once, and will beinclined to spread their fire. Scores of
those pesky bowmen will die with each volley fromthe onagers.
Oh yeah, and BTW, can we stop posting this? Im sure it is in the Keep and in
the Strat section, adn every time there are the same answers.

------------------
"There are two groups of people in this world: those who divide everything
into two groups and those who don't."-Kenneth Bould
**********************
"Too err is human, but it is against company policy"- Anonymous


Longbow_Brit
Forum Member posted 06-26-00 07:54 PM EDT (US)    43 / 72
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Of course, you'd want mangonel-oriented attacks, but enough of them to crush
50-60 longbowmen would be extremely expensive. If you wanted mangonels but
couldn't afford 10-15 of them, 5, surrounded by pikes, eskirms, and/or
lcavs/paladins, depending on your economy, would do the job. Hope it helps!!

Winston
Forum Member posted 06-26-00 02:42 PM EDT (US)    42 / 72
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legolas10: If someone only makes archers, it is relatively easy to beat them.
Send rams even or knights etc.
The actual scenario is one I now take huge advantage of. Simply, Forward
troops to hold off any ground/cav troops and archers to fire into the mass.
That combination is deadly as heck.

I was up against massed arbs, with cataphracts and pike. Trebs behind that. I
was weak from fighting 2 fronts and low support. I lost 1400 troops that game
(thats a LOT) playing a great tactical stand, but could never shutdown his
advance or knock his army off. Bombard cannons slowed him, and champ rushes
were good.. a great economy helped me, and if I could have broken the 3
player combined attack I would have won the game.. as it was I send army
after army, each time a new combination. Pikes are fast, they die just as
fast. archers never get close enough and are wiped out by the trebs. Eskirms
are also wiped out by the massed archers, they go down fast as well to the
trebs. The only thing slowing them down was the zerks. they did well enough
that I decimated column after column of cav and pike... NEVER did get the
archers.. that is the problem I had. I could kill most anything else, but the
archers. I also was rapidly losing resources.. 1400 troops over an entire
game is a ***** to produce and my vills were working triple hard. It is
interesting to note, I lost 1400, I killed less than 500. WAS a bad day for
me all around. heh.

I dont let massed arbs get me now, for 1 single reason. ARMOR. I learned
since then, ARMOR first always... then my troops can REACH the darn archers
and kill them much easier. My troops could not reach them before.

Soup: Please understand something, It is NOT for you to say how many of the
same questions are asked. If it was, become a cherub or something. These
questions are asked for simple reasons, this is a HARD ANSWER. Try a player
who uses the massed arbs/treb imp combo and see how you do.


soup or man
Forum Member posted 06-24-00 04:28 PM EDT (US)    41 / 72
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actually they have great accuracy. slightly less than an arbalest.
[This message has been edited by soup or man (edited 06-25-2000).]


Samtsirhc
Forum Member posted 06-24-00 11:45 AM EDT (US)    40 / 72
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Soup or man, even if people ask a thousand time of a same question, you can
just ignore it if it doesn't interest you. Don't discourage people to ask
question.
Back to the question. I think longbowmen have long range but their accuracy
is lacking. So a bunch of horsemen shall take them off. They are fast to
avoid the arrows when approaching the lbow. Skirmisher is a good counter unit
for lbow, but the attacker is not stupid. The lbow must have something to
protect them. Therefore I suggest get a bunch of horsemen and stir in thier
rank.

------------------
The wise win before they fight.
The ignorant fight to win.
-- Kong Ming @ myself :)


legolas10
Forum Member posted 06-24-00 10:52 AM EDT (US)    39 / 72
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Soup, and yet, your reply added nothing to the combined body of knowledge in
the world, and you came off looking like a jackass.

Sgt_Rambo
Forum Member posted 06-24-00 04:14 AM EDT (US)    38 / 72
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use light cavalry and onagers. would hurt to wait a second before sending
infantry/skimishers when the light cavalry hits it target.

soup or man
Forum Member posted 06-24-00 03:08 AM EDT (US)    37 / 72
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interpret it however you want, im not here to tell you how to do that. i'll
interpret it as "asked 100,000 times".

legolas10
Forum Member posted 06-23-00 09:58 PM EDT (US)    36 / 72
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soup or man:
When someone asks a question that can be interpreted as idiotic or
interesting, I choose to interpret it as the more interesting question. That
way I have fun answering it, and regardless of what the asker meant, he will
learn something when he reads my reply.
That said, massed longbowmen does not mean "massed longbowmen to the
exclusion of everything else". Massed longbowmen by themselves are incredibly
simple to counter: a couple onagers with lots of elite skirmishers. The
longbowmen will die to units a fraction of their cost.

Now, massed longbowmen combined with other things such as onagers, paladins,
pikes, etc. are VERY scary. To defeat them, you must realize that the army
coming at you was very expensive; you need to be prepared to spend a lot to
defeat it. Again, you'll want onagers for the longbowmen, but you'll also
need pikes or infantry (for protection of the onagers), light cavalry (to
kill the enemy onagers) and paladins to wreak all around havoc. Oh, and elite
skirmishers too. The main key to defeating massed longbowmen is "onagers are
weak, but fearsome".

Well Winston I hope you found your answer. If by "massed longbowmen" you
meant "massed longbowmen and nothing else", then you should have no trouble
defeating them. If you mean "massed longbowmen with miscellaneous units
protecting them" then there IS no easy fix, and there shouldn't be.


Lohengrin
Forum Member posted 06-23-00 08:54 PM EDT (US)    35 / 72
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I never, never, ever let an enemy Briton player to reach Imperial
unscathed... FLUSH'em!!! CRUSH'em!!! SMUSH'em!!! But for Heaven's sake don't
let'em alone! Even in Black Forest you can aim for an early Castle Attack
with Rams to knock down the walls and harass the villies... Not all my rushes
are successful but in a Zone Game, under lag and pressure conditions at least
keep my enemy busy defending so booming and Imperial jump is less likely to
be executed well.
------------------
Notung, Notung, trusty sword! I've wakened you to life again.
You lay dead there,in fragments, now you gleam glorious and defiant.
See, Mime, you smith, how sharp is Siegfried's sword!
- Richard Wagner
Zone Name: Alpha_Knight


Winston
Forum Member posted 06-23-00 01:48 PM EDT (US)    34 / 72
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Problem with vikes is that thier champs are so good and champ flooding is a
nice technique... so I tend to forget the cav/cav upgrades in favor of
infantry power. More armor, etc.
I slowly switching to use a more ranged base attack with both arbs and
champs/zerks. It seems to be way more effective.

Massed Archers supported by massed pals... what can ya do?


soup or man
Forum Member posted 06-23-00 03:12 AM EDT (US)    33 / 72
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Khaleb
ahh completely forgot about husbandry.

Fully_Completely
Forum Member posted 06-22-00 09:29 PM EDT (US)    32 / 72
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Mangonels
a bunch of them will wipe out all the archers in a matter of seconds, are at
least enough of them so that you can use other counters.

This will be a bit tricky if the elbows are occumponied (sp, sorry sorry) by
cavalry of some sort.

If you are the goths, massed huskarls are a good counter.
sort of.
if you have money to waste on them (most will die)


Khaleb
Forum Member posted 06-22-00 08:17 PM EDT (US)    31 / 72
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soup or man: Japs, Goths, Mongols only miss the last armour upgrade for their
cavalry, while Vikes miss the speed-upgrade as well. So not exactly tied.
Maybe you should read some old posts from time to time or just the tech-tree.

AoE2_Woadraider
Forum Member posted 06-22-00 05:40 PM EDT (US)    30 / 72
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Try to use your viking Caviliers. they have worked in the past for me against
arbs and longbows.

soup or man
Forum Member posted 06-22-00 05:33 PM EDT (US)    29 / 72
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hey winston, i've NEVER had trouble with longbows, i don't know what it is
that you do wrong but obviously its something. anybody who masses UU's is a n
e w b i e. its not that hard to find a way around it when there are SOOOOO
many options.

Winston
Forum Member posted 06-22-00 05:13 PM EDT (US)    28 / 72
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soup:
Are you regularly this much of a jerk or is it an aberation?
I find that there are WAVES of people who visit here, many who dont know, or
HAVE NEW TRICKS and will not post to old threads. New tricks are what wins
games, as the old tricks are known or DONT work.

I would rather have the same question asked 100 times and get 1 new trick
than to have it sit in some dust folder never updated.

Vikes are sweet for thier econ and thier champ flood ability. Franks are
nice, but die to Vikes (super pikemen).

Onagers cost a lot, and massed arbs/elbows are tough to get close to.

I think though the key IS:
use armor first in smith, then attack. You get much closer to the enemy
before you die.

soup or man
Forum Member posted 06-21-00 06:59 PM EDT (US)    27 / 72
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well...vikes are tied for worst Cavs.
Mongols, Japs, and Goths all share this title.

NinfoPlezr
Forum Member posted 06-21-00 03:20 PM EDT (US)    26 / 72
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Stop paying Vikes! 20 frankish or persian Paladins will take care of that
problem. If you MUST play vikes, use cavaliers I guess. Even though vikes get
the worst cavaliers in the game. You might try to send rams or something
first to absorb fire then close in.

Trouble_4_U
Forum Member posted 06-21-00 02:03 PM EDT (US)    25 / 72
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Paladins in mass, destroy elbows like no tommorow. Frank paladins and
throwing axemen to protect them is the answer to the mass Elbow threat.
Trouble_4_U


soup or man
Forum Member posted 06-21-00 01:57 PM EDT (US)    24 / 72
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bah. i know the forum is open to any question Raze. but you said it yourself,
that question has been asked many times. apparently the posters are too inept
to use the SEARCH feature right at the botton of the posts. the same answers
come for the same question, which has been asked dozens of times. thats why
this is a silly question. its like ppl posting "how do i fast castle?" over
and over and over again.

Winston
Forum Member posted 06-21-00 11:52 AM EDT (US)    23 / 72
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I noticed how trebs can smack massed archers the other night. They are a very
good offensive weapon against anything that SITS. ie: marmalukes, skirms,
archers, siege.
Get a bunch of trebs are you rock.


Massed pals should take them down too. I would hope.


EternalRest
Forum Member posted 06-13-00 03:47 PM EDT (US)    22 / 72
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I have experienced something like what you guys have said about the trebs. I
was turks, and it was team islands, I landed early and i was invading this
byzantine base, i killed his troops easy with jannies, but he had a couple
trebs behind walls, covered by castles. I thought the treb was supposed to be
inaccurate or something (30% or so ive heard) yet the trebs slaughtered soooo
many jannies before i retreated. It is pretty amazing what trebs can do
against slow archers (even when they were moving they got killed.)

monkey_manII
Forum Member posted 06-13-00 03:37 PM EDT (US)    21 / 72
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Actually, rather sickeningly, 10 or so trebs will actually kill massed
longbows, if they are in the normal formation, just have them attack ground
in the middle of the lbows (so any enemy unit hit dies), while not anywhere
near as efficient as skimishers and/or onagers, it is much funnier

Winston
Forum Member posted 06-13-00 01:52 PM EDT (US)    20 / 72
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well, Since I started this thread I will tell you. I am not a newbie.
I ask the simple question to get more ideas out of people. The problem you
face when hit with massed archers is time. Can you stop them or hold them
back in order to meet the critical mass of Eskirms? The answer against
another good player is "most unlikely"

I play a lot of 3v3 and 4v4 games (as they are the most fun in general). If I
have people on my team who are newbies I have to pick up the slack. If you go
against massed archers or massed anything it is because they are either. A. A
newbie, or B. have time and resources and good teamwork.

I was in a game where I was hit with 3 civs and I was Vikes. 1 player made
only Catapracts, 1 made only samurai, and the other made Archers. I was able
to knock back the Cats and the samurai but could NOT push them back as those
archers ate me alive.
Pikes vs the cats, and eberserks/onagers vs the samurai. I could never reach
a good mass to knock out the archers. Consider, good counter units vs archers
are out there... but Eskirms get wiped so easy.

1 on 1, anyone who masses something like that will get thier ass toasted.
combined arms rule.

Please do not ***** and flame about questions being asked, for you will miss
good gems of ideas that I will catch and toast you next time I play you.


------------------
I know I can write on this computer screen somehow. Now to sign this
signature.


Comay
Forum Member posted 06-11-00 09:17 AM EDT (US)    19 / 72
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As MCMASTER said, lots of heavy scorpions.
11/6/2000

------------------
Beware, you have no Cavalry Archers left.


Kepford
Forum Member posted 06-11-00 04:14 AM EDT (US)    18 / 72
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When I use Briton which is 99.9% of the time the only unit that bothers me is
the ONAGER. I always back up my Longbows with Cavaliers in case my opponent
gets smart and starts to build ONAGERS.
The best counter for Massed-Longbows and Cavaliers:
Lots of ONAGERS and lots of PIKEMEN. You will crush Trebs, Longbows, and
Cavaliers with ease. Try it.

------------------
Ira Kepford - top ace of VF-17, the "Jolly Rogers"


Raze
Forum Member posted 06-11-00 04:02 AM EDT (US)    17 / 72
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"Good on ya!" Maxgammon... Many of the posts I see here reflect the maturity
and skill level of their writers. Soupy Boy for example. This forum is open
to any question, from any skill level of player, and as an occasional lbow
masser, I know that very few can hold against such an army. Max showed the
effects of terrain but other things must be considered, for the e-skimisher
counter is often a bad fix. The strength of an lbowmen attack is that it is
effective against a wide range of defenses, where a skirmisher army is only
effective against archers. If in an ideal situation the skirmishers will win
but won't help you against anyone else or any other army and then must be
deleted to make room for other more effective units. While the skirmishers
are cheap, they do not cost nothing, and a good time to rush with lbowmen is
before the enemy is fully built+upgraded while those resources sacrificed
will be critical. If your are lucky enough to be fully built and upgraded you
may stand against a lbowman horde, but the secret is variety and balance in
your defenses. Skirmishers, Light Cavelry, Onager, Scorpions, Paladins,
Champions, Arbalests, they all must be used at once. And as soon as the
lbowman army is down you must crush its source, cause lbowmen aren't too
costly either. But accept that a lbowmen horde is evil and ugly cause if its
master is of any skill he will not send it alone. IF he was to send three
onagers with his lbowmen, (leaving them behind once the initial defenses are
destroyed) any skirmisher army would be crushed instantly. If he had pikes,
any light cavelry would be ineffective. My advice to Winston is this... Play
other civs... Every unit dominates and is dominated by another, just like
every civ dominates and is dominated by another. I like playing Byzantines vs
Britons, for with 20+ cataphracts, 20+camels, 20+hand cannoneers, and all the
skirmishers and light cavalry it takes, the Britons will eventually fall...
Once they are gone the few skirms and light cav that I have left, will likely
be deleted so that I can build more cats,cam, H-Cans, which is a good army
against almost anything. The balance and range of his troops is what took
Alexander as far as he went, far more than his military skills. Oh and he had
one more thing, he never failed to learn new things from new foes.

IClan_Emporer
Forum Member posted 06-10-00 10:03 PM EDT (US)    16 / 72
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Make Skirmishers, Period. They're cheap. They're effective. Pump them out.
------------------
Justin Cass, IClan_Emporer- IClan_Emporer@Hotmail.com


quote:
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Let's Just Say He's a Few Prawns Short of a Galaxy- Reference to Gary Coleman
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--

For downloads and original content, visit the Age of Empires Archive at
http://aoearchive.cjb.net.


Silent Celtic
Forum Member posted 06-09-00 09:29 PM EDT (US)    15 / 72
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Either outnumber Elbows them with Elite Skirmishers, or bring alot of Onagers
(1,2 onagers won't do, they will get shot down before they even get within
the range, but have you tried 8 onagers to counter? they work, trust me)
Plus, you should be able to out produce your counter army then your opponent
making elbows since they are produced at castle. Its easier to have a mutiple
archery range than a castle

------------------
Zone name : Sway_KingTech

the harder they come, the harder they must fall.


soup or man
Forum Member posted 06-09-00 07:01 PM EDT (US)    14 / 72
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was that the question maxgammon? no. its was extremely vague, it said "how do
i kill mass longbows?" and that question has been asked literally 20 times on
this board. it really is a dumb question. longbows fire arrows. skirmishers
have a bonus vs. them and have great pierce armor, paladins have great pierce
armor, light cav is cheap and has good pierce armor, onagers kill things that
are packed closely. its not that difficult to understand. and about the
onagers, how effective are they really? i mean when archers start firing they
tend to ring arond their object so an onager blast isn't as effective as
everybody is thinking, while it takes out a good 4 or 5 LBs, thats not each,
unless you are really great at micro. who knows maybe you are.
and that does kinda suck that vikings don't get halbs in the x-pack  Japanese
do, i think. could this be enough to put the japs over as the best infantry
civ? probably not, champs are still favored and vikings champs are more
versatile, though they lose 1 on 1 to japanese. however, in taking down
cavalry japs will be much better at this than vikings now.

[This message has been edited by soup or man (edited 06-09-2000).]


JimJam
Forum Member posted 06-09-00 02:55 PM EDT (US)    13 / 72
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I always play Vikings.
I tried pikemen against elbows and the pikes were killed before they could
get in range.
I tried elite skirms and they were wiped out.
I have seen onagers kill them, but Viking siege is weak.
I hear that light cavalry is good, but have not tried it - Viking cavalry is
weak so I usually do not create it.
I have been most successful with multiple (the more the better) trebs
"guarded" (use the "guard" icon) by many pikemen (10 pikemen per treb is the
ideal). The trebs outrange the elbows, and the elbows are usually afraid to
close-in due to the pikemen. You have to micromanage each treb volley or they
stop firing or start shooting at nearby farms or buildings.
Vikings are a fast civ, so I rush Britons first (as long as there are no
Teutons in the game) to prevent the Elbow build up.
BTW, I am bummed that Vikings do not get Halbs in the X-Pack, we are doomed!

maxgammon
Forum Member posted 06-09-00 02:17 PM EDT (US)    12 / 72
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TO SOUP AND OTHER ARROGANT SOB'S.
If u dont know the answer to a question, it is not stupid. That is what these
pages are for. If u think the thread is stupid, dont read it.

There are many situations where skirmishers ARE NOT the answer, or at least a
simple answer. One such is the narrow passages in BF. Skirms need to be able
to approach the longbows in the open to be effective. Because of the extra
range of the elbows, when massed in closed formation in a passage, they will
quickly kill the skirms before they can approach close enough to do much
damage. I have tested this many times. There just is not a way for skirms to
be effective in narrow passages. Skirms need to get inside the elbow range to
be effective. in this situation onagers are better.

another situation is where the elbows are screened by infantry or cavalry.
Skirms die quickly against almost any infantry or cavalry unit.

Also, protected trebs are an often overlooked resource against elbows. they
will pick off the elbows while sustaining no damage themselves. if the trebs
are well protected, it will force the the brits to make a suicide charge to
get the trebs, or to retreat out of treb range. Using one treb at a time is
particularly frustrating for the Brit. He has to kill the treb or move his
elbows out of range. So for example, if the elbows are massed in the passage
of BF, but reachable by trebs, use the treb to entice the ebows toward the
entrance where u can have 50 skirms or some onagers spread out at the
entrance to kill the elbows when they approach to kill the treb.



KOG_RAF
Forum Member posted 06-09-00 01:12 PM EDT (US)    11 / 72
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Mounted Knights normally travel under the arrows

USE_YOUR_ILLUSION
Forum Member posted 06-09-00 12:28 PM EDT (US)    10 / 72
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Massed Skirmishers and Castles near them.....

Cpt_Habidakus
Forum Member posted 06-09-00 11:54 AM EDT (US)    9 / 72
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I do believe this is the most often asked question on this forum, LOL! Check
out "The Keep" (link below), I'm sure there's a link to a similar thread
there.
------------------
Need AoKH Forumer Zone Names, Recorded Games and the best threads?
Visit The AoKH Forumers' Keep

On da Zone: NRK_Habidakus of "Team Anarchy"
habidakus@hotmail.com


HairyBenGary
Forum Member posted 06-09-00 11:54 AM EDT (US)    8 / 72
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This is a huge problem for me. i face it loads of time. the ONLY thing that i
have found to work against 100+ elbows is 40+ light cavalry to soak up the
arrows while 50+ skirms follow up with 10-15 seige onagers take out the whole
lot. Even your troops. (Inexpensive so it dosent matter)
The main point is that your seige onagers do not get hit and all the arrows
are aimed at the Lcav. the skirms follow up to kill some but they are mainly
a distraction as the opponent is likely to want to take them out first.
hopefully while they are both doing thier stuff the seige onagers can come in
and take out the lot. (about 15-20 elbows with one shot!)

------------------
Q:Why did the monekey fall out of the tree?

A:Because it was dead


statensuger
Forum Member posted 06-09-00 11:33 AM EDT (US)    7 / 72
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Hallo!
If you attack a castle with your units it will always attack your rams first.
I think Lbows has the same priority. If they don't you can always test wich
unit they will attack first with the mapeditor.

Do anybody know wich unit Lbows will attack first of rams and onagers?


Vindi care
Forum Member posted 06-09-00 11:24 AM EDT (US)    6 / 72
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I agree with soup, but for conversation's sake,Picard hasthe answer, onagers,
onagers, onagers with a screen of Eskirms.

MCMASTER
Forum Member posted 06-09-00 10:10 AM EDT (US)    5 / 72
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Just build a hord of scorpions ... EXTREMELY LETHAL !!!
Especially if they're flaming arrows !

IamthePIcaRDKing
Forum Member posted 06-09-00 10:05 AM EDT (US)    4 / 72
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Actually, you're both wrong. Pikemen, while a good unit to flood
with(sometimes) aren't exactly the best unit to deal with this. Cavelry
aren't either. The reason is is that you have 50 arrows each with about 12
attack raining down on your Cavelry. Remember Agincourt?(I think that's it)
Those stupid French Knights.... Anyway, I have a little strategy to deal with
this. First, make 25 ESkirms(I'm assuming they are already fully upgraded).
Then, make 3 onagers. Set up the onagers so they are coming from 3 different
directions. Send in the skirmies as a distraction, and attack with the
onagers. Viola! No more Lbows. And you little army there is cheap too. Except
for the onagers of course. Anyway, there's how to deal with it.
------------------
I was once know as PIcaRD. Now IamthePIcaRDKing!
I used to have a pic here. For some reason, it kept displaying it as a URL.
Until this problem is fixed, I will keep it out of my sig.


soup or man
Forum Member posted 06-09-00 09:58 AM EDT (US)    3 / 72
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2 militia.
god people...seriously, use the SEARCH. this question has been asked hundreds
of times. and it really is a silly question. everybody-newbie and expert
alike-knows that archers have a counter unit. its called the skirmisher. know
it, love it, bear its children, i don't care what you do to it, just STOP
ASKING THIS QUESTION!!!!!!!!!


KOG_RAF
Forum Member posted 06-09-00 09:11 AM EDT (US)    2 / 72
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Use Cavelry units such as cavaliers and paladins, the longbowmen will be easy
to kill then, unless they are acompanied by pikemen.
Unlike the above person states don't use pikemen. You will lose at least half
to 2/3 of them before the even reach the longbowmen.

[This message has been edited by KOG_RAF (edited 06-09-2000).]


DarkDevil_3
Forum Member posted 06-09-00 09:11 AM EDT (US)    1 / 72
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Although some people don't realzie it, for 50 elbos 70-80 pikes (inexpensive)
will take out the Britons (cavaliers, elbows, siege, and other pikes).
Pikemen are quite good against archers in masses.


A Novel Strategy Guide




Chapter 1: Opening Moves




Well, it's official. We're going to war. We got the call today. Seems like
someone-or-another said or did something that someone-else-or-another didn't
like. This is just great. I had lots of plans that now I have to put on hold.
Looks like we'll be working our arses off until we can put an end to this and
get on with our lives.


I guess one good thing that will come out of this is a better way of life when
everything is said and done. We should have a much bigger town when we are done
killing those Frankish wankers. There will be houses that we'll need to build.
There are barracks that we'll need to build. Hell, we may need to expand our
town to the surrounding countryside just to insure we can hold what ground we
have.


I guess one of the benefits of being British is that we sure know how to build
town centers. I've seen other people's town centers, and they use twice as much
wood as we do. Also, their shepherds sure do work slowly. Our guys can skin a
sheep clear down to the bones in 3/4 the time it takes them. I don't think those
guys have a chance. I guess we'll wait and see.


Wait, here comes the general.


"Yes Sir. Right away Sir."


Well, we just got the plan. Looks like we'll build one house for now, and the
rest of us will start herding sheep. Then once all the sheep are done (and if
our scout can't find us anymore), then we'll start on the berries. The general
said that food was our first priority, and then some of us will be assigned
woodchopping duties. I sure hope I don't get stuck chopping wood. Our shipment
of Double-Bit Axes has yet to come in, and without that, it takes us longer to
chop the wood (for the mathematically inclined, I think it averages out to a 20%
increase in wood gathering).


There goes our scout. I sure hope he comes back with some sheep. The more sheep
we can get, the quicker we can afford the things that will make this war over as
quickly as possible.




Well, still no sheep.


"Pardon me sir? You want me to build another house? But I was hoping to stand
around getting a tan ... yes Sir, immediately."


Even with the new guy, there are only four of us and with the new house we have
housing for ten.


And look, the general has the other guys going over to build a mill. I thought
we were going to herd sheep. Look one of those guys has been told to start
picking berries even before the mill is done. Busy work.


"No Sir. Not complaining. Yes Sir. Happy in my work."


The old fart. Something about idle hands cause slower castle times whatever that
means. At least he did give me some good news. The scout has found 4 sheep and
he is sending them in. They should get to the town center just about when I'm
finished with this useless house so I'm to head right over and start
slaughtering them. No break again.


I asked about the other guys but the general says they'll stay with the berries.
He doesn't want them to have to walk all the way back to the town center. But
me? Oh no, its OK for me to walk. At least he promised to get me help from the
new guys coming out of the town center.




Meanwhile, in the Frank town


So they say we're at war, but it seems all anyone does is work. Build a house,
build a mill, and kill the sheep. Well I've done it all and now he wants me to
do more. Lord Butchum says there is a large group of deer over the hill to the
east, and I'm supposed to build a mill over there. It's been all bad news around
here lately, the scout only found two extra sheep, so we've been pretty reliant
on berries. He did find those eight deer in a group though, what a stroke of
luck! They should keep food coming in for a while.


I sure am glad that Lord Butchum gave me these new clothes from the loom.
They're much stronger than my old ones, I feel so good I bet I could take on two
wolves. Oh look, here comes one now. Here wolfie!


There! Took care of him, and hardly a scratch on me. Look, over there they've
built a dock. They say the best fishing is off shore. Oh, there goes a fishing
boat, off to harvest the ocean's bounty.


Hey, some friends of mine are already hunting deer, but I don't even have the
mill up yet. What's Lord Butchum thinking? There, mill's up. Another job well
done. And look, just in time for the hunters to bring back their meat. I guess
Butchum knows what's going on after all. Look, a few more people are coming over
to hunt deer. Oh, they want me to join them. I suppose, the work never does
stop.


Look over yonder; they've built another dock. They must have been building lots
of fishing boats, because they're all over the sea. I guess the ocean must be
pretty plentiful. Oh, here comes the scout.


What news! The scout told us that one of the fishing boats has gone out and
scouted the enemy island. Now we know where they are. They'll never be prepared
for the likes of us. Hopefully, this will all be over soon. The boat also found
two other islands that we can land on later. I hear they're full of riches. The
scout also said our food stores are high, and Lord Butchum thinks our lands are
headed for new splendor. The dawn of a new age perhaps. Great tidings indeed!
Looks as though a few of our people have started mining gold near our mill.
Planning for the future I suppose, Lord Butchum knows more about these things
than I do. I wonder who those miners are; they weren't around when I came over
here to build this mill. There are a lot of new faces around here actually.


Alas, the deer have almost all been hunted. Half of the hunters have already
headed back to town, talking about chopping wood. They must need a lot of it to
build all those fishing boats.


I've heard there is a nice shore fishing spot just near here. Perhaps we can go
fishing after we've hunted this deer. I do love fishing from the shore, you
catch fish so quickly, and it's much cleaner than this butchers work.


Hey, look at the mill, the architecture's changed. The dock too, and the
buildings over in the main town. My, our town is certainly busy. Looks like they
are building a blacksmith and stables. Oh, enough standing around, new orders
have come from the Lord Butchum.


Indeed, he has ordered us to go fishing. So many fish, I suppose we shall be
eating them three meals a day. I think I will grow gills of my own before this
is over with.




(Pierre, a Frank fisherman, far off the Frank coast)


What an exciting life I've been able to lead! First, Lord Butchum sent me off to
explore the world. And explore I did. I sailed around the whole of the enemy
island, and discovered two other islands. One island was rich with gold, the
other with stone.


Upon my return, I noticed that much had changed. Our buildings look different
now, and there are many more people in my village. When I left, there were great
fishing spots right next to the dock, but now we have to sail farther and
farther to get to the good fish. I've heard news that the fishing fleet is soon
to be abandoned. Something about it being inefficient to sail this far for fish.


All in all, I hope they do dissolve our fishing fleet. I'd much rather be a
farmer. We Franks are excellent farmers you know. We've been using the horse
collar from the start of our new age, without ever having to research it. I bet
they haven't even figured that out in the Briton base yet! Silly Britons, I
guess we'll set them straight when they feel the sting of our steel!


Oh, here comes Jacques, one of the other fishermen. "What was that Jacques?"
They want us to scuttle the boats?" Very well then, I suppose 'tis a farmer's
life for me from now on. Well, I'll at least make sure to drop off what fish I
have in my boat before I sink her.


I think I'll enjoy being a farmer. At least sometimes you can take a break. See,
I'm just a lowly villager, and I'm not about to go spending any of Lord
Butchum's money to rebuild my farm if it happens to run dry. My plan is this,
farm like mad until I've harvested it all, but I'm not going to replant, I'm
just going to sit there, and wait for my orders. That'll teach Lord Butchum to
order me around! I've talked to the rest of my villager friends, and they've
decided to do the same thing.


I've heard a rumor that when there isn't a war going on, Lord Butchum and all
the other Lords have been talking about a way to make us work the farms all the
time. I don't like that idea one bit. We villagers hardly get any free time to
ourselves now.


Well, would you look at that, our architecture's changed again. It is much more
sophisticated now. It looks like some of the boys are heading off to a new part
of the island to start another town. And there are an awful lot of people
working the stone mines these days.


Ahh, a fresh change of clothes and I'm back out of the town center. I've got my
horse collar and heavy plow ready to go. They gave me a wheelbarrow to haul
things around in too. Always trying to make us work faster and harder. Well I've
got orders to build my farm right here by the town center, so I'd best be
getting to that before I catch trouble. Oh, look, more of my friends are coming
out of the town center and are going to farm here too. Looks as though I'll have
company at least.




Chapter 2: Battle Dawns




"Order! ORDER!!" King William The Lionhearted bellowed over the din of the room
as he tried to get the attention of the British council. His harsh voice soon
drowned out the rest of the noise in the room and the young king finally sat
back down on his throne, visibly exasperated.


"My golly men, must we squabble like little children every time we gather in
here for council?!? There is war we must get ready for and every second counts!
Now, Sir Henry, you were saying..?"


Sir Henry rose again from his chair, a little calmer now. The sunlight beaming
through the windows of the castle chose this moment to shine directly on the
king in his throne, casting a divine-like aura around him. He liked the way the
young king, despite his age, was able to maintain some control over the elders
that comprised the Briton War Council. Henry cleared his throat once more, and
resumed speaking, "Thank you my king. As I was saying, our best chance to win
this war is to save our food and gold and invest it in making a speedy progress
towards a brighter age. There is no sense in building up an army now and
attacking an enemy who we haven't even located yet. Our best...."


Once again the sound of a fist banging angrily against the wooden table
interrupted the Briton Resources Chief. Lord Edward the Bold had heard enough.
Rising quickly from his seat, he glared at Sir Henry with a look strong enough
to dent steel. The red-haired general raged, "And I suppose after we reach this
'new age' we would decide to sit around some more to reach another 'new age',
and another age after that until the blasted Franks are knocking down our
walls!"


Edward, with a feverish intensity now turned towards the King. "My Liege, this
is a war! The time to huddle in our houses holding on to our grain has passed.
Every resource not being used to train our troops and to get better weapons is a
waste! Our barracks need to be pumping out pikemen day and night! Do you think
the blasted Franks are planning to sit around forever, with their fierce knights
that outmatch all others throughout the land? My Liege, the time to act is now
and I say sharpen the blades, mold new armor, and roll out the bowmen, the pride
of our people, and lets finish this now!"


Once again voices around the table began to hum but this time the young king was
deep in thought, mulling over what his war leader and his resource chief had
told him. He had a big decision to make, and it had to be the right one.




(Richard, a Briton spearman)


The king had been expecting a cavalry attack from our Frankish enemies. It was
well known in the land that Franks have good horses, so we decided to prepare
for them. The operation got underway as soon as we spotted villagers getting off
of a transport ship. Unfortunately, their scout killed ours before we could stop
them from building a base. Our villagers finished off the scout, but were chased
off by enemy towers. We couldn't see what was happening in the town, so the king
had a few people train as spearmen. The scientists think that when we improve
our architecture again, they will be able to figure out some new weapons for us.
That will show those foolish Franks.


I, Richard of Hapsburg, am one of the spearmen. I have orders to patrol around
the enemy base and make sure no Knights come out unharmed. I will thwart the
villainous


"Hey, Richey!" An archer shouted, "Get back to work!"


"Y... Yes sir!" I stammered. I hate being on the low end of the totem poll. If I
was a knight, then I could order everybody around. Well, they won't look down on
me when I single-handedly save the city from a knight charge.


[Later]


I finally see something! They look like men at arms. The king said he was
expecting this. He said the enemy might try to protect his cavalry from us by
sending long swordsmen. Luckily for us, we have long-range archers. They will
stop those long swordsmen, and then I will get my chance to prove myself.


Unfortunately, the long swordsmen just kept coming! The Franks weren't attacking
with knights at all! They were going with all-out infantry. All of that work to
get new armor and sharpen the spears, and it is wasted. We may be British, but
without fletching and padded armor, our archers would be in trouble. The
villagers built some wooden walls around our archers to protect them, but if
they over-run that, I may have to fight foot soldiers. My spear isn't much good
for that.


I can only wait and find out. My only hope is that we get that new architecture
soon, and the archers get the better arrows they have been hoping for. If we get
some reinforcements, we could still win...


(Frank forward base on British mainland)


Why couldn't I have just been a villager? Here I stand, a Frankish man at arms,
stationed in a far-off country, at the brink of battle. Right now we're being
held at bay by British archers, but I've heard word that our smithy has been
working on new equipment for us: Longer swords and better armor.


A few of our people were able to construct this small base here on the Briton's
isle. We managed to drop down a barracks and town centers, and I hear work is
progressing on a castle. That would really help our cause. It makes me feel good
to know that our castles take less stone than the Briton's, so we should be able
to get one up soon. Looks like we're building stables as well. I'm in favor of
that; we Franks are born to be cavalry, not infantry. I can't seem to walk
around very fast with all this armor on. It would be much easier to ride a
horse.


Oh, our new equipment came in. Looks like the time for the attack has arrived.
Sergeant just handed down the orders. A charge, as I expected. We're to breach
the enemy's defenses and pillage the town. I heard him say something about how
slowing their economy was important.


I do hope they don't throw our attack back. I fear the castle may not be built
in time to defend our outpost. The transport that brought us here left long ago,
and I have a sneaking suspicion that it won't be coming back if there is
trouble. We'll have to fend for ourselves.


Here we go! I hope this new armor protects me against those arrows. What's that
sound? Horses! A few of our knights are joining the fight with us. They'll take
care of those archers. We'd better watch for pikemen, or our knights will be in
trouble. But first we need to get through that palisade...




Yves, A newly trained throwing axeman - The men from the front lines have
reported enemy spearmen. This presents a potential problem for our army, as we
prefer having our exceptionally sturdy cavalry in the front lines. We have
startled them by sending an initial wave of infantry. Hopefully this will
persuade those British fops to concentrate on archers. If they make the
transition to an archer-based army, we will begin to assault them with
thundering knights and cavaliers. They can take a shower of arrows much better
than our long swordsman.


Unfortunately, our enemy is a clever sort, and may back up his crossbowmen and
longbowmen with additional ranks of those accursed pikes.


That's where my friends and I come in. We cannot throw our axes very far, but we
can throw them hard. Much harder than an arrow hits. If those pikemen try to
lance our knights, I will split their skulls open from the back lines, out of
harms way.


Once the pikes are routed, our chargers will then assault the archers and
decimate them. Once the field of battle has been cleared of the enemy, we can
bring in some of the heavy siege weaponry I heard the Castle Commander
discussing with the Engineer Corps. We'll show those English dogs a thing or two
about tactics!




Back in Briton, William the Lionhearted was worried. These Franks, how did they
get to our land this fast? And we without any naval advantage with which to take
back the seas! Well, there was nothing for it, but to drive back the attackers,
and hope for inspiration. Luckily, his team of scientists had been making
progress, coming up with new ideas for stone working and weaponry. His
architects were muttering something about remodeling all the buildings soon.


Richard (the villager, not the pikeman) was tired. All he'd been doing for the
past few days/weeks/years was mining stone. He paused to reflect that this
battle had been going on for quite a few years now, with little progress, but
then decided matters of time accuracy were too philosophical for him. Instead,
he turned his mind to a more important question: Just what exactly was all this
stone for? And, if he had heard correctly, there was a large push to chop more
wood, too...

Henry looked over the battle with displeasure. Those Franks just didn't let up
with their infantry, did they? He just hoped that they didn't bring in any more
of their vaunted knights. The king had been pushing for more archers, above
Henry's protests that a more balanced army would be desirable.


Henry then thought to that firebrand Edward. He wanted an army, but he was too
old-fashioned in his military tactics. "Bunch of stakes, and some longbows" was
what that old hack said, if he remembered correctly. Well, thought Henry,
longbows needed to come from castles, where the training facilities were, and we
couldn't even make those yet. How's that going to work?


Just then, a messenger ran up. Reading the scroll, Henry's face brightened, and
he began to give the orders: "You four, start building a town center on the
right flank of their attack. We'll keep them occupied by sending out some
infantry. You six build a castle on the left flank. We just got the plans for
the building, and with any luck, we'll catch those Frank bastards in the
crossfire!"


(To the Frank battlefield)


What? You don't let me in for the fight? Those filthy knights are better than
me? Grrr... I've been trained for this all my life. I didn't walk all the way
from France to here just to defend a couple of workers.


Well, who says I have to obey? I can do something else when the knights go
charge. I've decided to walk all the way and attack from the other side! How
clever I am... Oh, finally I arrived. Yahoo! I see some innocent villagers
collecting berries. I will slay them! No, they're escaping. But I'm on the way
between them and their town center. Come on babies!


Wow! I slew three of them! The others escaped but it doesn't matter, I did my
job.


Ouch, what was that? An arrow? Where did that come from? I see no archers...
Arg, I see it! Some villagers are shooting at me from the town center! Well,
three arrows were deflected from my plate. Some others missed me. I've got to be
quick and get out of range. I must run!


And the poor man at arms was found dead on the grass with an arrow that went
through the back of his head and came out of an eye.






Chapter 3: The Tide Rises




Meanwhile, King William had a real dilemma; he knew they could not win this war
by simply defending. His archers had reported the Franks had constructed several
military buildings by the coast, and so far the best his men could manage was to
hold them off.


What was it his old teacher Percy, now long dead had once said? Ah yes, attack
is the best form of defense. A plan was forming in his mind, with the Franks
having so many buildings on his coastline their home defenses were likely to be
weak...all he needed to do was to strike at their heart, the source of their
strength.


Sir Henry ran panting in after his long ride from the front lines, the King had
called an emergency meeting and he had to be here. Even as he had left the
Franks were deploying battering rams to take down their flank town center. King
William looked unusually confident, not for the first time Henry was reminded of
his old king, Richard. Still no time for such memories, the king had already
started speaking, something about gathering a few of his best men and peasants
for some kind of secret mission...


(Of the Briton Coast)


Captain Tosgard ordered his fleet to leave the harbor. He was a proud man,
chosen by King William the Lionhearted himself to be the leader of the newly
constructed British Navy. "If those Franks want to land on our island, they'll
have to get through me," he thought. "We'll show them that we Britons don't take
things lying down."


Tosgard's fleet was a humble one, consisting of three war galleys and a fire
ship, but times had been rough since the Franks began their invasion. His orders
were simple: Patrol the seas and intercept any Frank reinforcements before they
can reach land. He was also supposed to keep the Franks from retreating off of
the British isle. Apparently, William had something quite special in store for
the Franks.


Captain Tosgard wondered what the Franks were up to. After their ram attack
failed, their forward base had been very quiet. Too quiet he thought. Some
devious plan must be in the mix.


As the fleet slowly sailed around the British Isle towards open water, Tosgard
saw his fear realized. A fleet of five Frankish war galleys was escorting two
transports to an undefended part of the British mainland. "Blast! Their forward
base was just a feint! The full power of the attack is to fall here."


Tosgard ordered his fleet to raise more sail and attack the enemy. However, the
Franks had noticed his fleet and were moving to engage with him.




Meanwhile, in the British castle, Edward saw the enemy fleet approaching from
the castle. "Foolish king!" he thought, "If only he had listened when I
counseled him to build an army!" "Summon archers to the towers and castle!"
"Rally all pikemen to the defense of the town!"


Edward could only wonder at what the approaching transports held. He was certain
they would land; the Frank fleet would easily be able to hold off the small
British fleet long enough for the transports to unload. Edward turned, and ran
down the stairs from the castle battlements. "I must speak to the King," he
thought, "before all is lost." A squire passed him in the stairwell. Edward
bellowed at him, "Go spread the word, you whelp. Alert the nation! Battle is
upon us!"


(Inside the Briton castle)


Why does the Commander need a castle anyway? I realize we are almost done, but
my fingers hurt!" asked John the villager. "The Frankish army is almost here;
when they arrive, I'm running away!"


"Quit your whining! I've been here the whole war, and I paid my dues building
this castle," said Edward the old man. "You young villagers think that this
world is all about easy work like farming. When I was your age, all I did was
hunt, break my back in the stone mine, and chop wood. I don't want to hear your
complaints."


"Pipe down!" yelled Deadeye the archer. "I have been garrisoned here the whole
war, keeping a watch out with my ten best friends. You guys have it easy. All
you have to do is respond to the commands given...Take aim, guys, here they
come!"






(A pikeman, on the field of battle)


I have new orders. I am to escort the longbowmen to the Frankish landing site.
The battle will be difficult, and we will have to coordinate with our navy and
several other kinds of troops to win this. Still, I am confident. Let those vile
Frankish Knights try to trample our archers; I will dispatch them with a single
thrust of my pike.


[On the battlefield]


The shore was wide open. Our small navy was already engaging the Franks. The
enemy transports were just about to unload. A few of our own knights stood at
the ready destroy any siege weapons that issued from the transports.

We moved into a box formation. I stood on the outside with the other pikes,
while longbowmen prepared to fire from the relative safety inside the formation.
We were ordered to stand ground no matter what.


The ships lowered their planks and soldiers began to charge from the ships. The
enemy army consisted of three long swordsmen, a pair of rams, six knights, and
four throwing axemen.


The general began to give us orders immediately. Our longbowmen fired upon the
axemen. They would reach us before the enemy long swordsmen, and could do a lot
of damage. Our knights began to attack the long swordsmen who guarded the rams.
The enemy knights and axeman made an assault on our formation, while the long
swordsmen and rams made a long trek inland, towards out town. Only a few of the
infantry stayed behind to occupy the British Knights.


The last of the Frank Throwing Axemen fell just as he lobbed a huge axe at one
of the other pikemen. He was injured badly, but lived.


The enemy knights finally attacked us. Under a hail of arrows, they charged like
mad men. None of them moved to engage me, but most of the others planted their
pikes and bore the brunt of the first charge. The knights were injured, but
still confident. I stood my ground, although a knight was only a short distance
away. Everyone else moved to attack. Unfortunately, I had orders to stand here,
no matter what.


Then, the order came for the longbowmen to retreat. They were told to bolster
the defenses of the castle against the expected rams and swordsmen. Five pikemen
stayed behind to hold off the equally sized force of Frankish Knights that
remained.


I, along with a few others, followed the archers back to the main town. The rams
were busy fighting some towers, so we got to the castle first. Although battle
still lay ahead, I was furious. My chance to be a hero was lost. Without any
more enemy knights, I was nearly useless because of my weapon.




(Meanwhile, on the Frank mainland)


Another distant 'thud' brought Sentri the farmer back from his daydreaming. He
glanced around at once, but again, nothing much had changed from the last time
he looked around the landscape of his Frankish homeland. There were still
farmers just standing around, some chatting amongst themselves, and others, like
him, leaning on their plows dreaming the day away. Sentri brushed off another
nagging bumblebee and looked down towards the slowly deteriorating farmland, and
smiled.


It had been days since the last courier ran through with orders for the farmers
to keep cultivating the land. In fact some of his friends on the western hills
have also not received any orders to keep mining gold, and his wife, Kara, along
with the rest of the eastern shore fishermen have all but abandoned their
fishing chores. Sentri's smile grew a little wider. "Har, har, who says that
times of war are hard on the people?"


Since the war intensified, he had seen less and less of his king, and heard that
he was personally directing the effort to slay all those British dogs. Sentri's
smile grew into a full-blown grin as laughed to the farmers around him, "Well,
may King Dupre spend all his time on Briton soil and use the English villagers
he doesn't kill as his new labor! As for me, sitting around here suits me just
fine!"


The farmers around him who were still awake muttered their agreement, and Sentri
prepared himself to daydream some more when another 'thud' rippled across breeze
from a distance. This time, a little louder. Sentri raised his hand to cover the
sun's glare as he peered towards the increasingly annoying sound. The sight that
met the farmer's eyes almost knocked him over, sending an ice-cold chill all
over his body. Everywhere, workers were standing up, some jumping up, and
looking towards the sound that now filled the air, placing terror on the faces
of every one of them. The red and white flag of the Britons flew proudly above
the horde of men marching towards them. "Merde," Sentri swore to himself,
"Merde"




"All my life we've been at war," thought Pierre the Frank villager. "A war with
no result. Long ago King Dupre and Lord Butchum sent some peasants to the enemy
island. None returned. Not long ago, the king sent a fleet and troops northward
to tackle the Britons. Again, the transports returned, all empty."


"Now it seems it is my turn to sail to distant lands. The king has pulled me
from my farming duties. I've heard tale that food stores are high, and some more
talk of a bright new age, an age of expansion. I do hope this new age gives us
what we need to defeat these vile Britons."


"Speaking of the Britons, it looks as if they've built on our island as well.
Some rams and troops came by not long ago. Lucky for us, the king had a new
batch of knights ready to transport to the enemy island. They were able to stave
off the Britons, and I hear that we've got troops pushing them off our island as
I speak. Seems they didn't have the time or money for a castle. Silly Britons!"


"Well, back to my tale. The Lord Butchum, the king's economic advisor, is a
long-sighted fellow. Since troop transporting has been halted until we push the
Britons into the sea, he's moved four of us off of farming and into the two
transports. Apparently we're to land on the Isle of Gold, and the Isle of Stone.
Butchum gave us a talking to, I couldn't much follow what he meant by most of
it, but he said a lot about how by controlling the land we can control the war."


"So, I'm off in a transport with my old fishing buddy Jacques to the Isle of
Stone. Apparently, stone is almost more valuable than gold these days, so we
need to secure another quarry or two for the future. We're to build town centers
on the island, and if there is enough money, a castle as well. The two chaps in
the other transport are doing the same thing, only they're going to the Isle of
Gold."

"Well, we've arrived. I suppose this is my home now. Well, Jacques and I had
better get building, we've got a lot of work to do."




On board a Frank War Galley, Captain Cartier could hardly believe his fortune.
After dispatching the puny Briton fleet in the Battle of the Landing, he and his
sister ship had been delegated to patrol around the Isle of Stone, and the Isle
of Gold. His superiors had said they wanted to secure the area to bolster the
Frank economy. Economy, he wanted war! Shore bombardment, naval battle, and
terror on the sea! Instead, he was forced to drive around an island in circles.
Soon, he thought, our villagers would secure the islands. Then, it was back to
the war for him. He would show the Britons a thing or two about naval tactics...


On the Frank mainland in the castle of King Dupre, Lord Butchum proudly walked
up to the King. With a smile, he spoke. "My Liege, we have reached our final
stage of advancement, look out the window, and behold your wondrous nation!"


The King did, and was pleased with what he saw. "Military Advisor, what is the
status of the Britons invasion of our island?"


"My Lord, we've stopped the British push onto our island and isolated their
base, but we fear they may be preparing for another assault. Research has
completed on a new siege weapon, the trebuchet, which I believe will turn the
tide of the war."


King Dupre thought a moment, and then spoke.


"Very well, build two of these trebuchets in our forward castle near the
Britons. Send all available mainland units to protect them."


"Lord Butchum, you must arrange the resources for us to build more of these
devices. I want to build them at our base on the British Isle as soon as
possible."


Lord Butchum and the Military Advisor agreed, and bid the king farewell as they
hurried to their tasks.


The king looked out over his nation from his castle window. "How dare the
Britons land in my kingdom," he thought. "I'll have that infant King William's
head before this is through. All will bow to the glory of the Frank Empire!" ...




On board a British War Galley:


"How many ships?"

"I've counted two since last pass, maybe 3."

"Their pattern?"

"Nothing fancy sir, just regular patrol."

"And the lead ship? Is it the..."

"Yes sir, it's Captain Cartier."

"What of the Isles? Have they been occupied?"

"Yes sir, but I've only seen peons, no soldiers or towers...yet."


Captain Tosgard took in a deep breath. His decision wasn't that hard at all in
reaching, but the consequences of it were still sinking in. He took another look
at the picture on the wall of his quarters. He would never see that sweet face
again, never feel her sweet breath on his cheek, or the soothing touch of her
lips...


"Alright skipper, we have done enough spying around. Ready the guns and tell the
men to stand ready. When Captain Cartier and his fleet reach the northern most
point of the Isle of Gold, we will be there waiting. Have the two transports
head south at full speed and empty their men as soon as possible. And their
orders are simple. They take the Isle of Gold or they die trying! We will delay
the Franks as long as we can."




On the shores of the Frank held Isle of Gold, the scurrying villagers sprang
from the transports and without even the slightest delay began readying their
tools and laying the foundation for a new town center. The men, some with the
scars of previous encounters still flowing freely with blood, didn't say much.
They just hammered away at their work. They didn't even flinch when they heard
the sound of approaching wolves in the distance. The snarling howls became
louder and louder, until one villager calmly got up struck at the wolves for a
while and then fell dead. Another villager, a woman this time, finished the
wolves off, and then resumed building besides the corpse of the villager, hands
bleeding. Nothing was said. The only purpose in life for these villagers now was
to flood the Isles of Gold with cheap Briton Town Centers. Nothing else
mattered.




In the Briton Stronghold Castle, the young king turned a corner to the main
hallway, saw Lord Edward approaching and quickly spun around, heading in the
opposite direction. He really wasn't ready to argue now.


"William! William!!"


Too late. King William halted and waited for his war advisor to reach him.
Another headache was starting to slowly ache his temples.


"What on God's fair earth are you thinking?!?!" Edward didn't even bother with
his usual false pretense of respect towards the King, young enough to be his
grandchild. "You diverted most of our wood supply to fuel an effort to take a
couple of no-name islands?!? Haven't you noticed the Franks amassing on our
land, with transport ships traveling to and fro without interruption? Have you
lost your blasted mind? We need to reclaim the sea and for that we need a fleet!
With this outrageous order you have just condemned all of us to fall to those
Frankish vermin!"

Edward's yelling reverberated through the halls of the castle, as well as the
head of King William. Right now he wanted to draw his sword and run Edward
through. The image of his tutor, Percy, calmed himself and he spoke slowly, but
firmly to Edward, "One more outburst from you, and the Franks won't have to kill
you because I will. I ordered Captain Tosgard to take the Isle of Gold and Stone
because we have lost here."


Edward winced a little from the last statement, but the king continued, "The
Franks, for the moment, have gained the upper hand with this new device of
theirs called the Trebuchet, and are undoubtedly about to unleash them on us. We
don't have that technology yet, but to continue fighting over our land here will
be useless. We will all probably die here but in the meantime, we can rebuild on
the Isle of Gold, and perhaps Stone, and continue the fight."


William finished and waited for another outburst from Edward, but the old war-
hardened general said nothing. He briskly turned around and marched away. When
he was outside the earshot of the king, he spoke to the nearest squire, "Ready
my armor and my horse, and tell all available longbowmen to meet me outside the
castle." The squire marched off with his orders.


(Pierre, on the Isle of Stone)


"For weeks I've been cooped up inside this town center." Pierre the villager
cursed. "I wish I could be back in the mainland with my peaceful farm, but
instead I'm here, on the Isle of Stone, trying to hold off an invasion. We must
remain ever vigilant, for the British fleet sails around our island
continuously. They always manage to stay out of range though. I've heard we
don't control the Isle of Gold anymore. The Britons have invaded it. They won't
take our island though, Lord Butchum gave us plenty of resources to cover the
place with town centers, and we even built a castle on the island! It's deathly
quiet around here though, with everybody holed up in their town centers. I hear
a small stone mining operation is underway in the center of the island. Lord
Butchum must be happy about that. Oh my, one of the British Galleys is within
range. Fire! Ha, that's right, you'd better run. Whew, some excitement finally.
I suppose it's back to waiting now. I surely hope the mainland sends help
soon..."




At the Frank docks, Captain Cartier had retreated on first sight of the Briton
fleet. Their plan for securing the islands had depended on the Britons being too
busy to notice the Frank build up.


So they had lost the Isle of Gold. However, the Isle of Stone had been heavily
fortified, and Cartier knew that nothing short of full scale invasion could take
the island. The Britons did not have the luxury of such an invasion, for they
were busy fighting the war in their homeland.


The invention of the trebuchet had allowed the Franks to quickly push the
Britons off of the Frank mainland. Outposts had been set up all across the Frank
nation to prevent the Britons from setting up any new forward bases on Frank
land.

The one problem that had arisen was control of the sea. The Franks had largely
ignored their navy after the Battle of the Landing, and consequently were ill
prepared for the Battle of the Gold Isle. All of that was about to change,
however. The new golden age had brought new ship technology as well, and Cartier
had been given command of a new fleet. His old ship had been overhauled and
careened, and was now faster, and stronger. His new fleet of a dozen galleons
waited in the harbor for the king's orders.


Cartier's messenger approached him. "Sir, orders from the king have come in.
We're to set sail for the Isle of Stone immediately."


"To break the Briton blockade of the island?" Cartier inquired.


"Yes Captain," replied the messenger.


Cartier's heart rose in his chest. To war once again! He would crush the Briton
fleet! The vile Tosgard would not escape him this time.




At the battlefield on the Briton Main, after demolition of the original castle,
Richard was charged with adrenaline. For he had new armor, thanks to the king's
wise and gratuitous donations. He also had a group of pikes, to protect the
regiment of longbowmen, from the dangers of the Frankish Trebuchets (which he
always had to correct his damned friends on the pronunciation) and the
protective paladins and throwing axemen. Now was his chance of glory, he could
only hope the mail order monks were coming, and soon. He did not have enough
life to stand up forever without any help.




(Frank Navy en route to the Isle of Gold)


"Capin, Capin! The British and there fire ships sighted off the port bow!"


Captain Cartier looked a little worse for the wear and this didn't help. "Man
the guns, see if you cant 'it em while they come!"


"Capin, they are already within range, they are burning us!"


"Full retreat, we must send word that we need demolition ships to counter the
fire ships at the front!" order Captain Cartier.




At the home port, a wearied Cartier returns:


"My king, the British have begun to repel our attacks but from recent reports
they do not have enough wood to continue a naval battle. We must hit them now
with our demolition ships."


"My dear friend Cartier, we are a little short on wood, we have had to make more
town centers to protect our Isle of Stone. We can only spare a few ships, and
the ones we have barely making it out."


"My king, if we loose this fight for the seas, Briton will be able to land where
they please and take the deepest of the ocean bounty if they so please!"


"I am sorry Cartier, we cannot spare the wood. You have your orders, defend our
isle!"




Back at the besieged Isle of Stone:


"Hmmmm this is getting tedious. I hope the reinforcements come soon, the
British are beginning hit and run attacks on our centers."


The sight of ten British Longbows, five long swordsmen, and a siege ram awaken
the Frankish settlers.


"Man your arrow posts, get someone out into that castle!"


Just then a page runs in. "Sir, Sir! More reports coming in. The British have
begun to siege our castle with the ram they have brought, and more are on the
way because of our naval shortage."


King William muttered to himself, "Oh dear, oh dear, that force stretched our
resources pretty thin, we cannot maintain a constant stream. We can only hope
that the Frankish are not as well prepared"


King William was tense enough with the war, but now, stationed in his castle at
the edge of his main island did not help things. The thoughts of Percy were all
that kept his mind even.


In the King's Quarters stood a young woman in a plain dress. The King could not
handle anymore. His land was being taken. His navy was outdated. He could not
afford enough to siege enemy buildings safely, and he did not know why he stayed
on in life. He turned to the girl, and began. "Though you do not know it, your
grandfather was my old tutor, Percy. He was my inspiration, and let me be what I
am. For that I am in eternal gratitude. Now come here to this balcony." The
woman obeyed, and stood there in awe at the congregation of villagers,
livestock, and archers cheering there. She was completely amazed as King the
Lionhearted said, "Here's to a new age! A new age ruled by a new ruler. A new
queen, Queen Katherine! All Hail! Queen Katherine!" And he placed the crown on
her head.


That night, alone in his room, William crawled in his bed, still adorned in his
royal robe, holding his most prized possession. The dagger was simple, adorned
only with one silver jewel in the hilt, below the thumb when wielded correctly.
He quietly whispered, "Here I come Percy." as he swiftly and painfully pierced
his heart.






Chapter 4: The Changing of the Guard




As the news of King's suicide spreads in all the country, the Briton Lords
couldn't hide their disapproval on what William decided.


"Why? How could he do that? How could he name that unknown woman to his
succession? Does she even know something at the art of war? Or maybe she killed
him after forcing him to name her, but how??"


Edward was the most outraged noble of all. He considered that decision to be the
stupidest ever made on earth, and furthermore he would now be given orders by a
lady! Even Sir Henry didn't fully agreed on the decision. The country needed a
strong king, able to face the war situation, he thought. He finally concluded,
"Anyway... never mind. Just let's hope he didn't name her just because he had
some feelings for her... and we will do our best to advise her. The king must
have had his reasons, and I trust him."




The newly crowned Queen Katherine was in a foul mood. "Why did good King William
have to pick now to abdicate?? And that {unladylike expletive} Edward is waiting
in the wings, who knows what he is planning?"


Her chain of thought was interrupted, as Sir Henry burst in. "Your majesty," he
panted, "I have received news from the front! The Franks unsuccessfully tried to
break our blockade of the Isle of Stone! Our transports are landing at will, and
we've begun to siege one of their castles. Even as we speak, a second force of
longbowmen, pikes, and long swordsmen has landed, and is starting a diversionary
action."


"Finally, some good news," Queen Katherine sighed, "Maybe that'll keep Edward at
bay for now..."




Lester of Loxley was excited. "It's time to drive those Frankish dogs back to
the land they came from!" he commented to his friend, Lister of Smeg. "I know.
Those damn Franks don't know how to mind their own damn business! But we'll show
them! Me and my trusty longbow will see to that!"


"Oh pipe down back there!" Richard said, peevishly, "All you longbowmen have to
do is stand in a scared line behind us pikes, and shoot. It's us who do all the
grunt work!"


"You're one to talk." muttered Arnold, "You run at the slightest sign of
trouble, leaving us Long Swordsmen to pay the piper."


The squabbling Britons were rudely interrupted as an arrow found its way into
Arnold's thigh.


"Frankish archers ahead!" yelled Arnold, in a belated, redundant sort of way.


"Well," said Lister, "the battle is joined eh?"


"Yep," replied Lester "lets go to it!"




"Nyah, Nyah, Nyah" chanted Robicheaux as he saw his first quarrel hit the leg of
a British Longbowman, "Lets show those British swine what we're made of!"


With a rousing cheer, the squad of Frankish Crossbowmen stood up to take aim at
the cursed British. The morale took a serious nosedive, however, as three of
them got rather nasty looking arrows in the chest for their troubles. Altogether
too late, they remembered their orders were to stay behind cover.


With that, the first battle for the Isle of Stone was joined.




(Captain Cartier on the Frank homeland, after his failure on breaking the
British blockade)


"Aahhh!" yelled Cartier, once returned at the homeport. Of the three ships that
went against the British fleet, only his could manage to return. Furthermore,
the blockade was still there, locking the Isle of Stone from any reinforcements.


"Dammit! If only he had listened to me!" Cartier of course was thinking about
his king.


With these words he rushed to the castle, and came to see the king alone.
Without even demanding authorization, he angrily said, "My Lord, you must know
why I am here, we couldn't do anything against the British fleet, and ours has
been totally wiped out, I barely could return here alive! Now our loss of the
isle is assured."


The King looked at him, and smiled.


"That's it, very funny," thought Cartier. Finally the king said, "What you did
was just absolutely great Cartier!" Cartier opened his eyes wide, completely
astonished by the Dupre's reaction.


"We couldn't even destroy an enemy ship, my Lord."


"No Cartier, you don't understand. I sent you into a divertive operation. As I
expected, you returned without having been able to do any real harm to them.
Meanwhile, I ordered other small docks to build a new fleet. But I had to lie to
you a bit, we never built any additional town centers on the isle."


"But why didn't you give me the command of all the fleet and sent me against
them?"


"I must say I've hesitated a lot. During your various battles, I had to find
another leader than you for sea, because I assume doing everything alone is too
handy. I've found one, Jean Levoix, and tested him in some situations. He's good
enough for the job. I didn't tell you about the operation, because I assume you
wouldn't accept, furthermore it will be a capital test for Levoix, we'll see if
he's worth. But don't worry, you're still the best I have."


"But Lord, why him?"


"Because the British don't know him. They only know you. The fact that I sent
you on that mission was meant to make the British think your fleet was our last
(as the usually thing is to put the best leader on the best fleet). Ha ha, I
can't wait for their reaction when they will see that second fleet!"


"What? You already sent them?"


"Errr, I'm afraid so, we couldn't afford waiting your return. Their orders were
to cut British reinforcements first and then break the blockade. I sent them
with two transports, with paladins and some infantry. I must say it wasn't easy
at all gathering all this gold! The two relics our monks found helped a lot."


Cartier thought about what the king said. Indeed, the surprise effect will be an
essential factor during the battle. But he remained unsure.


"My Lord, are you certain about Captain Levoix's capabilities?"


"I am very confident in his victory. Now don't worry and take some rest, you
must need some since all these battles. We'll repair your ship."


Cartier returned to his quarters. He never saw the king so confident. The fleet
he newly built must be very powerful indeed! "Ah, forgot to ask what ships it
had, stupid me!" But he was skeptical, as building all that required lot of
gold. He tried to sleep, but couldn't, thinking about the Isle and the battle
going on there


(To the Briton held Isle of Stone)


Richard thought back to his last moments on the mainland. Frankish Cavaliers,
who soon exchanged their uniforms for those of paladins, had been invading. He
was ordered to get onto a transport and begin colonizing an island.


He wanted no part in the abandonment of his homeland. He protested, loudly, that
we wished to stay, even if it meant death. Alas, he was forced by his commanding
officer, and here he sat on a transport with a group of archers and a swordsman.
His last chance for heroism had slipped through his fingers. All that was left
for him was guard duty on some tiny, far away island.


Two other transports were heading to the Isle of Stone. The rest were en route
to the Isle of Gold. One of the companion transports held villagers, and the
other carried his fellow pikemen.


He was roused from his musings by the sound of those smug longbowmen talking
about how they would win glory by beating the Franks. He couldn't let that
continue any longer, and told them that he and his fellows did all the work. The
long swordsmen called him a coward, and he was about to object when an arrow
struck one of the other soldiers.


They were under attack! Unfortunately for Richard, his weapon was useless
against an enemy vessel. Besides, they had orders to stay in hiding no matter
what.


One of the other transport ships was struck by an enemy demolition ship, and it
sank to the bottom. Richard silently bid farewell to his friends, and vowed
revenge once again upon the vile Franks.


Despite his orders, he stood on the bow of the ship and shouted, "All of you
Frankish pigs will die, even if I have to hunt you down myself! If you kill me I
will pursue you in the next life, to the ends of time!"


He spat still more curses as he was pulled back under cover in the transport.
His shipmates were afraid that the enemy would target them next.


Soon, they were in sight of the Isle of Stone, and nothing could stop their
transport from landing.




In a remote forest on the British mainland, Sir Henry and a couple of his
squires wove their way around another patch of trees and finally, in the
clearing ahead, saw their quarry. Henry sped up and stopped within a few feet of
Edward.


"Finally, I've been riding all over the woods looking for you! Haven't you
heard? Queen Katherine has ordered us to evacuate the land. We are to head to
the northern docks and take a transport to the Isle of...."


An inadvertent glance to Edward's left stopped Sir Henry in midsentence. What he
saw almost made him forget to breathe. Behind the old prince, who was adorned in
the full battle gear of a cavalier, stood three short lines of Pikemen, some
more cavaliers and rams, and behind all of them stood two long rows of Elite
Longbowmen and a couple of trebuchets.


One of the cavaliers rode up to Edward and handed him the British flag.

Henry had to keep himself from falling off his horse. He had come to tell Edward
of the Queen's orders and her plans for colonizing Gold and invading Stone, but
instead he sees this.


Where did Edward get this force? Why weren't these forces present during all the
battles where the Franks burned through the British lands, causing them to
evacuate?


Edward finally turned to him and with a deep rumble spoke to a puzzled Henry,
"The great nation of our people have never suffered the disgrace of a foreign
flag flying on our land. That William the Chickenhearted allowed this to happen
with his benign attempts to conduct a war, and that joke of a queen, Katherine,
will only continue to run wherever her precious transports take her."


Edward paused for a moment, as another Cavalier rode up and, to Henry's immense
amazement, presented Edward with a crown. Edward put it on with one hand as he
raised the flag of the Britons higher and yelled, "Now, the time to regain our
honor has come! I, your new king, promise that with this last ride, we will rid
our land of the Franks, or die trying! The time for talk is over, and now we
draw steel to finish the talking. Let us ride to these Frankish dogs, and show
them the face of fear!"


The enormous cry that arose from the men shook the ground and the trees, and
Henry, again had to struggle to stay on his steed. He wanted to try and talk
some sense to Edward, convince him that his country would be better served if he
took this army to help conquer the Isle of Stone, or invade the Frank mainland,
or something.


But then Edward looked to him, pride and determination written all over his
face, and asked him harshly, "I never really liked you Henry, but Briton could
use another sword for this battle. Are you with us?"


Henry did not hesitate. History would remember this day and he wanted it to
remember him dying for his country on the battlefield of his country, not dying
fleeing elsewhere.

Unsheathing his sword and, in the loudest voice he could muster, yelled,

"We ride!"


And with that, the whole forest rumbled as the new King Edward, Henry, and the
rest of Briton's sons rode out.








Chapter 5: Death and Dishonor


Jean Levoix sailed his fleet towards the Isle of Gold with new orders. Those
British dogs! If they wanted the Isle of Stone so bad, let them have it! Gold,
however, was more important to the current war effort.


Levoix commanded a powerful fleet. He stood on board one of his strong Galleons
and watched over his ships. Five galleons, three fast fire ships, two heavy
demolition ships, and the prize of the Frank Navy, three cannon galleons. The
fleet sat out of range of the Briton Town Centers on the Isle of Gold,
bombarding the shoreline.


Boom! The cannon galleons fired, and with a belch of flame and smoke another
volley of cannonballs slowly arched their way to the nearest enemy town center.
This volley was enough to crush the damaged town center, and its villagers
quickly scurried away, hiding in other nearby town centers. The fleet moved
closer to the shoreline and began bombardment of the next town center.


Levoix watched the horizon carefully, searching for signs of the enemy. "Cartier
must be doing his job well," thought Levoix. Cartier had been given command of
another small fleet, and had been ordered to harass the British occupation of
the Isle of Stone. Levoix had diverted one of his demolition ships and a cannon
galleon in an effort to aid the aging Cartier. Upon reaching the Isle of Gold,
Levoix had arranged his fleet in a defensive posture, and began bombardment. He
had brought with him two old fishing boats that had somehow escaped scuttling
long ago. These fishing boats now patrolled along the edge of Levoix's fleet,
providing a early warning to any approaching enemy ships.


Two ships appeared on the horizon, bearing friendly colors. They were
transports, and Levoix knew what they contained. It was the Frank invasion
force, headed for the Isle of Gold. Levoix ordered his cannon galleons to move
in close to shore, and form a loose ring outside of them with his galleons and
fire ships. The transports landed under cover of the fleet. The invasion had
begun!


After the landing, Duke Levard looked quickly looked over his troops and
assessed the situation. The fleet provided excellent cover for his troops, and
would allow them to set up a forward base. He immediately ordered the three
villagers that had come to build a castle. Even the limited mining his nation
had been able to do on the Isle of Stone had provided a large stone reserve.
Levard had been ordered to take the Isle of Gold and fortify it heavily.


Levard ordered his three trebuchets ahead, and unpacked them in firing range of
two British town centers. His paladins formed a defense around the trebuchets,
and watched as flung stones knocked the buildings to the ground.


Levard surveyed the land around him. The castle had been built, and efforts were
underway nearby to construct a town center and stables.




Upon the castle's completion, Levoix had moved his fleet farther north along the
coast and bombarded the last of the British town centers on the island. His
country's paladins charged across the island, hunting down the fleeing Briton
villagers and ruthlessly slaying them. The Isle of Gold was once again part of
the Frank Empire. A massive building effort had begun on the island. Two castles
had already been built on the coastline to prevent any enemy landings. Frank
town centers were being constructed near major resource locations. Stables had
been constructed, along with an archery range and a siege workshop.


A battered galleon limped towards Levoix's fleet. It was Cartier's! The old
Captain had escaped death once again.


Cartier's report was expected. The Isle of Stone had been lost. The defensive
emplacements on the island had not been strong enough to repel a persistent
attack. However, the Britons had taken the island at tremendous cost of men and
ships. In addition, one of Levoix's transports had been able to rescue some of
the villagers from the island, and they had been brought to the Isle of Gold
where they were now hard at work.


Cartier's ship was repaired in the dry-dock and he set sail for the Frank
mainland. Levoix looked over the Isle of Gold once again. Duke Levard had done a
wonderful job with the island. Massive gold mining operations were already
underway. Paladins were being trained on the isle, and a horde of elite
skirmishers was gathered by the archery range. A dock had been built on the isle
to support Levoix's fleet, and was busy building fast fire ships and heavy
demolition ships.


A helmsman ran up to Levoix. "New orders sir, we're to sail to the Isle of Stone
at once."


"Very well," acknowledged Levoix.


Levoix ordered his cannon galleons to remain under the cover of a nearby castle,
and turned his fleet of galleons, fast fire ships, and heavy demolition ships
towards the enemy island. He would do what Cartier could never accomplish; he
would destroy the British fleet. Then, King Dupre would have no choice but make
him leader of naval operations...




(Meanwhile, the invasion of the Isle of Stone continues)


The Frankish Cannon Galleon stood alone against them. The transports were so
close to their island, but they couldn't stand a hit from the massive iron ball.


The powerful cannon boomed again, and a giant splash shook Richard's transport.
The captain then realized what he must do. He charged the cannon galleon.


Soon, they were next to the enemy vessel. The enemy ship tried desperately to
move away, so that the transport would be beyond its minimum range. Meanwhile,
the transport full of villagers landed. They immediately began construction on a
town center.


When the captain of the cannon galleon realized that the transport would not be
shaken, it attempted to lead them back to the main Frankish fleet. Fortunately
for Richard and the others, they passed too close to the island in their
attempt.


The transport made a desperate run on the island and unloaded its passengers
moments before being smashed by a cannon ball. The elite longbowmen were swift
to deal revenge, sinking the cannon galleon under a hail of flaming arrows.


Once the town center was built, a castle was begun. Luckily, the Britons still
had plenty of resources in reserve, and had reached the age of imperialism not
long before leaving the mainland. The ever-growing horde of villagers had soon
blanketed the island with buildings. The castle was producing trebuchets, the
blacksmith was hard at work creating better armor and weapons, the barracks was
training infantry, and most importantly, the docks were building more ships.


A fleet of fast fire ships, backed with galleons and heavy demolition ships
would certainly surprise the Franks, who probably thought that the Britons were
doomed. Luckily, British Shipwrights gave them an edge on the sea. However, it
was still yet to be determined if this edge could overcome cannon galleons




(Two days later)


Off the coast of the Isle of Stone, Captain Tosgard was hopeful for the first
time in years. All news indicated that the great battles being fought on the old
Briton mainland were falling in favor of the Britons. Perhaps soon he would be
back in his own homeland, instead of exiled to this forsaken Isle of Stone.


The Britons had done a good job of rebuilding on the isle, but it offered little
in the way of hospitality. The island was simply too small to support a
significant farming effort, and the small forest the island had on it had
already almost disappeared. One thing it did have was stone, which could be sold
in the market to buy the cheap wood and food needed to build an army. However,
this land would never be home, and if confined to it, the war would be
everything but over for the Britons.


Tosgard looked over the only remnants of his once proud fleet. Frank Demolition
Ships had sank most of his once strong fleet of fire ships, and the wicked
Cartier had dealt a severe blow to his Tosgard's Galleons with his Frankish Fire
Ships.


Now it was again time to rebuild. Rebuilding the fleet was taking far too long.
Only one dock produced ships for the entire Briton Empire. The wood needed to
build extra docks was sorely needed for ships, and could not be spared.


Tosgard's fleet now consisted of only four galleons, two fast fire Ships, and a
single heavy demolition ship. A newly constructed galleon cruised out of dry-
dock and towards the gathering point in his fleet.


The rebuilding was proceeding too slowly. Tosgard could only hope that the
Franks were too occupied with fighting on the mainland to bother with further
naval action against the Britons.


Tosgard's hopes were dashed almost before he had completed his thought. In the
northwest, from the Isle of Gold, a Frankish fleet was approaching. "The young
Levoix has come to challenge the old master," Tosgard muttered to himself, "We
shall see who it is that wins the day."


A squire came carrying news from Katherine, who ruled over the Isle of Stone.


"Sire, a Frankish fleet is attacking."


"I know boy," replied Tosgard sternly, "I can see them!"


"No sire," countered the squire timidly, "On the eastern part of our island,
another fleet, led by Cartier. They've brought more cannon galleons against us,
and fighting ships as well."


Tosgard's face turned ashen gray. The Briton Navy was outnumbered and outgunned.
He began to formulate a battle plan, but was interrupted by the squire.


"Sire, look, in the southeast!"


Tosgard looked, and his countenance took the appearance of a man looking death
in the face. Three cannon galleons, flying Levoix's banner, were approaching
from the southwest, heading towards Tosgard's only lifeline: The dock.


Tosgard knew the hour of his death was at hand. He also realized if his docks
were destroyed, the Briton nation would surely be lost. He ordered his fleet to
split. The fire ships and his lone heavy demolition ship would attack the
approaching cannon galleons, while Tosgard's ship, the HMS Invulnerable, and her
sister ships would attempt to attack Levoix's main fleet.


Without the aid of their fire ships, they would be sailing to their deaths, but
the cannon galleons could not be allowed to destroy the British docks, or all
would be lost.


Tosgard could only hope that by giving his life, he would buy the Britons enough
time to flee back to their homeland and re-establish a base there.


With an emotionless expression he ordered his fleet to sail. "For Briton!" he
screamed to his crew, "May our deaths save the empire!"


Moments later, in the midst of battle, Tosgard's ship was rocked by another
round from the Frank Galleons.


"Concentrate all fire on their fire ships!" he ordered.


The HMS Invulnerable was heavily damaged, and taking on water. Nearby, one of
the galleons under his command was ablaze; it's crew diving into the sea to save
themselves. Another volley from the Frank Galleons sank two British Galleons.


Tosgard's ship was the only one remaining. He calmly glanced to the south. Off
in the distance, he witnessed the last of the Frank Cannon Galleons fall to his
fleet's two fire ships. He glanced at the docks. They were burning, but still
operational. A transport had been hastily built, and was ferrying a group of
peasants back to their homeland.


Tosgard had succeeded; his nation would live on. A warm smile came across his
face.


A loud crashing sound brought him back to the reality at hand. His ship was
ablaze, and the rigging had collapsed onto the deck of the ship. His crew was
gone, having perished in the fire, or already abandoned the crippled vessel.


Tosgard looked around from his position near the ship's wheel. In all
directions, fires blazed. Tosgard took hold of the Invulnerable's helm, and
thought of the time before the war. He thought of his wife and family, and even
as the flames engulfed him, he hoped that someday, there would be peace, a time
free from the petty squabbling of kings




Britons and Franks (on the battlefield in on the Briton Mainland)


At the ruins of Frankish Stronghold castle, Lord Butchum rode calmly through
what was left of the castle, the last bastion of Briton resistance. Finally, we
have cleansed this land of all the Britons. Dupre shall be pleased with this for
sure, and then we can turn our attention to retaking Gold.


The Frankish Warlord rode some more through the ruins of the castle and looked
for the body of King William. He had heard reports of him committing suicide but
he wasn't sure. He was about to turn to one of his paladins to ask when a faint
rumbling in the distance caught his attention.


"Hmmm, what is that sound? Hey, get a scout over to the west there and see..."


Suddenly, a huge shadow fell over Lord Butchum and his men. Butchum looked up,
expecting to see a cloud of some sort in the sky. What he saw was the last thing
he expected to see. The sky was filled with flaming arrows; so many, that it
cast a shadow over the Frankish army right before they fell


(Some time later)


Lord Butchum danced around another hailstorm of Briton flaming arrows. His armor
was battered and burnt, and his noble horse had a big gash on its right side.
Yet, he continued to ride. The Briton's attack had been swift and punishing, and
had caught his army off-guard. He knew that if it wasn't for his Frankish blood,
and the fact that he was wearing the best armor, he would probably be dead right
now.


A couple of Briton Cavaliers were right behind him, yelling and screaming for
him to slow down, so they could 'talk' to him. Butchum continued to ride.


"I've got make it back to our castle and regroup under its cover fire."


A couple of his axemen were scrambling down a small hill, one still running with
an arrow stuck burning on his shoulder.


"You two, retreat to our castle and be on the look out."


Butchum could not finish his orders, as a shower of arrows rained on them,
knocking them both down to the ground in a heap of shattered armor and bloody
flesh. Butchum cursed the Briton Longbowmen one more time. He continued to ride.


The castle came up in the distance, and Butchum relaxed a little. "Almost
there."


Something was wrong though, and it became apparent very quickly. The castle was
burning, and at its base were two Briton Siege Rams, one burning a little, as
the castle's arrows fell on it.


"Merde!" Butchum drew his sword and charged the rams. As he drew closer, he
could make out some more of his axemen engaging the rams, but they in turn were
getting cut to pieces by Briton Cavaliers. He saw one in particular that was
hacking at the Franks with one hand, while holding the Briton flag in the other.
He looked raving mad.


"Die you Frankish rat, die!" the Cavalier was yelling.


With another swing he brought down the Axeman, head separated from body. Butchum
cursed loudly at the cavalier, catching his attention, and the Briton turned to
him. Butchum noticed he was wearing a crown.


"...and the rivers run red!" the cavalier yelled, as he charged, looking
possessed. Butchum met him head on, parrying of his attack with his sword, and
slashing back at him. He caught the cavalier with a slash, and the Briton
dropped his flag, but pressed on. Now using both hands, the cavalier took a huge
swing at the Butchum, aiming to cut the Frank in half. Butchum easily avoided
the enraged attack and prepared to deliver the final blow to the head of the
Briton rider.


"Tell your young stupid king I said hello!!" Butchum cried, as he brought down
his sword for the blow. And then, all of a sudden, he lost all feeling in his
hand and could feel blood rising up in his throat. Butchum looked down to his
chest to see the bloodied shafts of four arrows sticking out of his breastplate.
His vision blurred and he could feel the cold hand of death gripping him. The
Briton Cavalier turned around, rode up to him calmly, and ended it. Butchum's
head hit the ground at about the same time his sword and the Frankish castle
nearby did.


Katherine looked out her castle over the Isle of Stone. The island was lost.
Frank troops scurried over the landscape, destroying everything Briton.
Katherine had sent nearly all her troops and peasants back to the mainland, and
her piecemeal defenses on the isle had not held out for long. She had heard of
Edward's claim to the throne, and only hoped he had been successful in
reclaiming the mainland.


With a loud crack the gates of her castle were breached. She could hear the
Frank Swordsmen climbing the castle stairs to her room. Her door was barred, but
that would hold them only a moment...




On the Frank mainland at his estate, Lord Butchum woke with a start from his
nightmare. His heart was pounding, and cold sweat glistened on his body.
Breathing heavily, he slowly regained his bearings. This was the fourth night in
a row he had dreamt of meeting the Briton King in battle. A preposterous idea,
he thought when his head cleared. I'm not a soldier. I'm the King's Advisor.
I've never seen a battle in my life!


Butchum readied himself and left to see his king. As he walked, he surveyed the
landscape. It was a sorry sight. Where once there were great forests, there were
fields of stumps. The nearby sea had been raped of all its fish. His countrymen
were tired, tired of war, and worked only through fear of Dupre's wrath. "We've
been at war too long." thought Butchum.


The recent war news was more bad than good. The Franks had easily overrun the
Isle of Stone, but only because the English had already nearly abandoned it
before the Frank invasion. The large British Army had pushed the Franks off of
the Briton Mainland, and the Britons were undergoing a massive rebuilding
effort.


However, with naval outposts on both of the small islands, the Franks held
control of the sea in an iron grip. King Dupre insisted on pressing the war with
almost manic desire. His ruthless attacks on the Britons had earned him
worldwide recognition. He was The Scourge, Dupre the Wicked. His people were
unhappy; they did not want to lose more of their sons, their brothers, their
husbands, or their friends to this pointless war.


Butchum arrived before the King. "My Lord, why is it you wanted to see me?"


"Yes, it is in reference to the Queen Katherine, we have captured her."


Butchum was surprised to hear this news, "She stayed behind when the Isle of
Stone was evacuated?"


"Yes, and she will sorely regret it. I plan to have her executed tomorrow at
dawn. That will teach the Britons to challenge the power of the Frank Empire."


Butchum was horrified, "Sire, she's just a girl, don't you think we should
parley with her? Perhaps we could find a peaceful settlement to this war."


"Peace? I know not of the word. If you would side with the Briton's Queen,
perhaps I'll have your head tomorrow as well. Do what I say Butchum, I am your
King!"


"Very well my Liege. So be it."




The next morning, outside the castle, Pierre stood in the crowd of villagers
waiting for the executions to start. Today was going to be a good one. Two
British Military Advisors were going to be executed, along with the wicked Queen
of the Britons.


Pierre was tired of this war, tired of moving from place to place to work. After
mining out his gold mine on the Isle of Gold, Pierre had been brought back to
the mainland to farm once more. Pierre loved his farming, but wanted peace.
Everyone wanted peace. Every day more young men went off to distant lands, none
ever returned. The war had touched everyone's family, and nobody had gone
without loss. And yet, Dupre kept pushing them all.


Pierre watched as the King and his advisors were brought out to their viewing
point. Lord Butchum did not look himself lately. He looked like he had not slept
in days. The crowd cheered excitedly as the King was seated. "Bring out the
prisoners!" cried Dupre.


Pierre stood on tiptoes to try and get a better view. The advisors were being
brought out first. Pierre knew they must be wicked men, and responsible for the
deaths of countless Franks. They were executed promptly and efficiently, after a
long homily from Dupre about traitors and the fate of enemies of the empire.
Pierre couldn't remember much of what was said, for he was too interested in
watching for the wicked Briton Queen to be brought out.


And brought out she was, but the rowdy crowd quickly grew placid when they saw
her. This was the wicked queen? A young girl was being dragged to the
executioner's stage. She wore tattered clothes, and her face was bruised and
swollen from numerous beatings. However, even with the bruises, she had a warm,
caring look about her. The crowd stood deathly silent as they tied the girl down
to be executed. The king began another long and wordy speech about enemies of
the empire and the fate of the unrighteous.


Suddenly, from the front of the crowd, one of the villagers cried "No!" The
crowd was soon thrown into a tumult, shouting obscenities at Dupre and demanding
mercy for the innocent young girl.


Dupre was furious, and motioned to the executioner to do his work. The
executioner hesitated, frightened by the sudden fury of the crowd. Dupre looked
at Butchum.


"You do it, kill this Briton wench!"


Butchum calmly replied, "My Lord, this is not right, she's just a girl."


Dupre was insane with anger. "So you side with the Britons as well, eh Butchum?
To hell with you all!"


Dupre pushed Butchum aside and stormed onto the executioner's stage. He drew his
dagger and, cutting Katherine's bonds, lifted her up by the hair.


"Behold the fate of the Frank's enemy!"


With those words Dupre slit the girl's throat, and she slumped dead to the
ground.


Like a tide, the horde of angry villagers surged forward onto the executioner's
stage. The King's guards did not move.


Dupre was engulfed in the crowd, and torn to pieces. With the death of the
wicked king, the crowd's anger quickly subsided.


Pierre looked down at his hands, stained red with the blood of the King. He
looked up over the stunned crowd to the King's stage, where Butchum had calmly
watched the entire event.


"All Hail, King Butchum!" The words escaped Pierre's mouth, even though he had
not attempted to speak them. Soon the entire throng was shouting it in unison.
They had found their new king.


Butchum could not believe his eyes. He had just watched the crowd tear Dupre
apart, and now they were calling for him to be king.


One of the King's guards looked to him. "My Lord, what are your orders?"


Butchum spoke quickly "Gather the diplomatic advisors. Retrieve Katherine's
body, she must be returned to the Britons, she will receive a queen's burial."


"Very well Sire." responded the guard. Butchum looked out over the crowd of
peasants, and prepared to speak to his nation...


Chapter 6: The Voice of Reason




Mark, the British spy, stood hidden behind a tree in the square. King Dupre had
just slain Queen Katherine, and he had been killed by the hands of his own
people for it. Mark was unsure of how the King would take this news, but in
these desperate times he hardly cared.


He had been paid to locate the enemy king and return immediately. The
proposition was expensive, but worth it considering the information that would
be brought back.



(On the British mainland)


Will looked up from his farming. A lovely golden eagle flew silently overhead.
It was quiet and peaceful here - far from their home but it was a fair and
untouched land, where he and his neighbors could farm in peace, unnoticed by the
Franks, and try to build anew.


Will thought back on when he had been called Billy, full of fire and spirit
himself, riding his new horse and polishing his armor with his mates in the
King's Own Light Cavalry. Where were his mates now? Where was his own fire?


Now his own son John was talking of hewing wood to become a longbowman and
fighting to defend (or reclaim, no one knew what had become of the old town) the
home they had left. Before, they went first to the Islands, and then escaped to
this deserted woodland. John talked eagerly of the new gold that had been
discovered by the loggers and how that might equip some of those knights that he
had only heard about in stories. John looked in youthful awe at the massive
stone walls going up about their new home and the castle that was being started.


Will thought sadly to himself that the gold might yet hire cavaliers and
champions, but would he then lose John as he had lost Jennie, his wife, in that
horrible night of flames, blood, and horrid cries of death? Was it time to
resign oneself to this quiet life and end the fighting?




Perhaps it was time to become a man of the church and spread the word of God,
Will thought. Even to those Frankish heathen who had done so ill by him, to save
their souls and thus his own, accepting death should it come, as a penance for
his own youth and killing. Friar Robert had collected all the relics from the
old monastery (when the Franks looked as thought they would storm the old town)
and put them together in this small stone new church. Pilgrims were coming to
pray from all over, even Frankish lands, leaving their small contributions to
the church and the town.


There was talk of building a grand cathedral, a wonder to man and a tribute to
God, protected from the unbelieving by great stone walls and always kept in
repair by the devout commoners. But like everything else, this was all just idle
talk and none of the common folk really knew what the future held.

The newly crowned French King Butchum looked out over his War Council gathered
inside their bastion. The mob's killing of King Dupre surprised him, but didn't
necessarily sadden him. True, he had never led a country before, but that didn't
mean that he couldn't or, more importantly, wouldn't.


Butchum stood from his seat at the head of the table, cleared his throat, and
began his speech he had spent all night preparing.


"I am before you today gentlemen addressing you for the first time as your king.
The events over the last 24 hours have really shaken our nerves and our spirits.
I, personally, disapproved of the slaying of Queen Katherine, but never would
have expected that sort of reaction from our villagers. I will not say that King
Dupre didn't deserve to die, but I will say that the mob's reaction gives us
reasons to be concerned. Is this frenzied state the way that we want our country
to be? Is settling peace in our own country more important than upholding ideals
of a man that was killed as a result of those ideals? I believe that it is. I
believe that we have but one choice in the matter. I, along with a few of our
remaining men, will go to the Briton mainland to talk to whoever is in charge
there now."


"Sir, our spies have informed us that Edward the Bold has taken control of the
country," reported Gerard Comeaux, head of Frankish Intelligence.


"If that is so, then this will be more difficult than I had originally planned.
I've heard some brutal stories of this Edward. My only hope is that he is as
tired of this war as I am sure that we all."


"A great war has been waged on both fronts. A war that will leave a lasting
impression on our children. A war that historians will look back on and wonder
how this all happened. A question that I would like answered myself."


"I will leave at dawn. Notify the docks to have five transports ready. That
should be enough to bring back the men that we have left alive. Once all is said
and done, we'll return for the bodies of the ones less fortunate."


"As I stated earlier, I will take a few men just in case Edward has any
objections to my request."


"One other note before I dismiss you. I would like to congratulate you gentleman
on the job that you have done. Your jobs were to provide us with an army that
was powerful and very mobile. You also were responsible for protecting our land
from invasion, and for the most part, you succeeded brilliantly. If only it had
turned out a different way."


"For your roles in this war, each of you will receive the Chevalier de la Lgion
d'Honneur. As you know, this one of our most prestigious awards and signifies
that you are now a Knight of The Legion of Honor. Congratulations gentlemen.
Dismissed."




"Pierre, chop wood. Pierre, mine stone. Pierre, mine gold. Pierre, build a farm.
Pierre, tend to the farm that you just built. Don't they realize that I am a
fisherman? While I have to admit that I kinda enjoy farming, I just wish they
would assign me one task and then leave me alone. I mean it's not like I'm the
only..."


"Pierre, go to the docks. They need help building transports."


"Oh come on Jacques, can't someone else do it?"


"Someone else is doing it. But that someone else needs your help. It's a rush
job. We need 'em by the morning."


"But I was hoping that I could stand here for a little while and rest."


"Now Pierre, you know as well as I do that we aren't allowed to stand around. As
soon as someone sees that your aren't doing anything, they'll make sure that you
have more work than you can handle. Now will you go to the docks?"


"Fine! I'll go. Pierre, chop wood. Pierre, mine stone. Pierre, build
transports"




"They're building transports?" Edward asked the spy again, not believing what he
had just been told.


"Yes my Liege. I saw the plans myself. It calls for five of them. Each able to
hold ten men."


"Well, well, well. It looks as if the new king has a mass invasion planned. I
guess he wants to go down in history as the king that crushed the British
Empire. If a battle is what he wants, then a battle is what he'll get."


"No disrespect my Liege, but I don't think they are planning an invasion."


"What do you mean they aren't planning an invasion? They are building enough
transports to transport the whole damn Frank Army."


"I understand that my Liege, but I didn't find any evidence of them training any
new forces."


"Just because you didn't find any evidence of new forces, doesn't mean that he
doesn't have any reserves ready for action. Now does it?"


"No my Liege, but"


"And if you wanted to attack an army as powerful as mine wouldn't you want a
force of fifty men?"


"Yes my Liege, but"


"And if you had your backs to the wall, don't you think that a last gasp effort
would be your best strategy?"


"Yes my Liege, but"


"Enough! You are dismissed."


"Thank you my Liege."




Pierre hammered the last nail into the hull of the transport and took a sigh of
relief. He had been up all night building these damn transports and was finally
able to sit down for a few minutes to rest his weary feet. It was dark down in
the hull; the only light shining from the oil lantern that he had brought down
with him. He was exhausted. He had been going non-stop for days. No one would
miss him if he took a nap, would they? I mean, it isn't like he's the only guy
around that knows how to wield a pickaxe or a hoe. Yes, a nap was long overdue.
He blew out the lantern and leaned back against the hull, falling asleep almost
before the light went out.




"Good morning Sire." the squire said as he opened the tapestry covering the
window of the royal bedroom.


"Good morning Louis" answered the king.


"We received word from the docks that the transports are all ready."


"Very well. Notify the men on the list that I gave you last night that we shall
leave in two hours."


"They are all waiting for you near the docks Sire."


"Well, they must be as eager to end this thing as I am. So be it. We shall leave
shortly."


"Certainly Sire."




King Edward looked out over his kingdom. He could feel the butterflies in his
stomach. Today would be the battle that he had been waiting for his whole life.
A chance to lead his country as King. A chance to be a war hero. A chance for
his name to be known throughout the world as the person responsible for crushing
the Frankish Empire. A wry smile crept across his lips. Yes, today was his day.
Today, he'll unleash his wrath.




Lord Henry sat at his breakfast table alone. He didn't exactly feel like eating,
but managed to nibble his way through a marmalade covered biscuit.


Something just didn't seem right about this whole invasion idea. Why would they
invade now? What would they have to gain? We have numerous town centers dotting
the countryside, each garrisoned to the hilt with villagers ready to fire on
sight.


Maybe Edward is right. Maybe this is a last gasp effort to overrun their
country? Or maybe this is a diversionary tactic of some sort.


Hell, he didn't know. He was the Resource Officer. His job was to insure that
they had enough resources to support the war effort. And as such, he felt that
he had done his job well, or as well as could be expected. It was no secret that
he and Edward didn't get along, but perhaps Edward had a point. After all, he
was the king now and had a strong understating of military tactics (if not a
little over zealous).


Henry dropped a half-eaten biscuit on his plate and rested both of his elbows on
the table. He wasn't sure how the day's events would unfold, but he felt that
the worst was yet to come.




King Butchum stood at the bow of the transport, gripping a rail with both hands.
Partly to stable himself, and partly to prevent anyone from seeing his hands
shake. He was nervous. Nervous that King Edward wouldn't accept his plea.
Nervous that he might somehow fail. His country's livelihood was in his hands.
He prayed that things would turn out for the best.


The only thing left to do now was wait. Something that he wasn't very good at.




Pierre awoke to the rocking of the ship. How long had he been asleep? Why was
the ship moving?


He lifted his weary body from his makeshift bed and peered up from the hull. The
sunlight shining down temporarily blinded him, but he managed to make out a
figure standing at the bow. Was that Jacques? Maybe he'll know why the ship is
moving.


"Jacques, why is the ship moving?" Pierre asked, emerging from the darkness
below.


King Butchum turned around and with a puzzled look asked, "Who is Jacques, and
more importantly, who are you?"


"HALT!" ordered one of the Pikemen as he thrust his pike within inches of
Pierre's stomach.


"M..m..m..my name is Pierre." he stammered, "I helped build this ship and must
have fallen asleep sometime during the night."


"Frederic, lower your pike." the king ordered, "This man means us no harm."


"Certainly my Liege." Frederic replied, "But you better watch yourself," he said
to Pierre as he lowered his pike, "I'm keeping my eye on you."


"Lighten up Frederic." the king responded, "Come here, what did you say your
name was?"


"Pierre my Liege."


"Fine then. Come here and sit with me Pierre."


Pierre walked slowly toward the king, careful not to trip or anything else that
would make himself look like a buffoon.


Pierre sat beside the king, afraid to look him in the eyes.


"You fell asleep down in the hull?"


"Yes my Liege. I've been going non-stop for the last few days, and I was very
tired, and I really didn't mean to sleep for so long, and"


"That's ok my son." the king interrupted, "You don't have to explain yourself.
I'm sure that we all could use some quality sleep. Hopefully after today, we
will be able to get some."


"Why my Liege? Where are we going?"


"I am going to offer King Edward of Briton a peace accord. Hopefully, he will
accept and we can end this useless war."


"What if he doesn't agree, my Liege?" Pierre said, finally able to look the king
in the eyes.


"Well, let's just hope that doesn't happen."


The king turned toward to front of the ship and looked at the shore off in the
distance. He thought about Pierre's last statement. Indeed, what will happen if
he doesn't agree? He didn't know. What will be will be.




Kind Edward stood in front of his men assembled for the battle. He was proud of
these men. They knew that some of them would die, but he could not see fear in
their eyes. He had prided himself on his ability to motivate men, and although
he felt these men were already motivated, a little more couldn't hurt.


"Gentlemen, we are on the verge of a great battle. A battle that will ultimately
decide the fate of our country, and of the Frankish bastards that are trying to
destroy our great kingdom. As you stand face to face with the enemy, remember
Queen Katherine. You undoubtedly know that she was killed by the Franks, but you
may not know how brutally she was murdered. A spy reported to me that her body
was drug out into the streets and each villager was allowed to have his way with
her. Not once, but again and again. She was then strapped to a pole and stoned
to death, slowly and agonizingly. So when you kill your Frankish enemy, and I
know you will, thrust him through the heart for Katherine's sake. Her spirit
will not rest until every Frank has been killed and victory is ours."


A chill came over Henry as he heard Edward's speech. Edward always had a way of
stretching the truth to fit his needs. And this time was no exception. Maybe it
was good to have the men motivated, but how motivated should they be before they
start fighting with anger instead of with their hearts? Please Lord let this be
over with shortly




"When we land, I want you all standing behind me."


"My Liege, could I be so honored as to stand behind you as well?"


"Yes Pierre. You may join us, but please do not get in the way."


"I promise not to my Liege."


"Very well. If I am correct, then Edward will be expecting us, so he will likely
be waiting for us. If all goes well, we can end this war without any more
bloodshed."


"Coxswain Purdue, prepare the ship for disembarkment"




"They are landing gentlemen. As soon as I give the word, we will charge them,
leaving no soul alive."


"What the..? It is only the king and a few men? Is this a suicide mission? Stand
fast men. I will see for myself the meaning of this."


"Lord Henry, you have control of the men."


King Edward rode towards King Butchum, one hand gripping the reins, the other
hand tightly gripping his sword.




"Good, it looks as if Edward is riding towards us. Perhaps I was wrong about
him. Maybe he does want to end this war."




Edward fumed. "If that Frankish wimp even attempts to pull anything, I will have
his head as a souvenir."


Edward rode until he was about ten yards from Butchum.


"What is the meaning of this Butchum? You call this a war party?"


"No Edward, it isn't meant to be a war party. This is a treaty party."


"A treaty party? You expect me to believe that you want to sign a treaty?"


"Yes Edward, my men are tired and we want this war over."


Edward dismounted his horse and walked within spitting distance of Butchum,
still gripping his sword.


"Why would you come all this way to sign a treaty, and more importantly, why
would you bring five transports?"


"I brought five transports to take home the men that we still have here in your
land."


"Too late Butchum, I've killed them all. Besides the forces you have at sea and
the ones you have on those islands, the only men you have left are the ones
standing behind you. And if you look over my shoulder, you will see that we
outnumber you five to one."


"If what you say is true, then I will take the bodies of my slain men and take
them home."


"Admit it Butchum. You have been defeated. Surrender to me now and I will spare
you."


"Surrender? Have you seen our navy? The only way that you can win is if you come
to our mainland and destroy us, and with our navy, a transport won't get fifty
feet from your shore."


Edward started fuming. He knew Butchum was right. Damn his infernal Navy.


"I will not surrender and you will not sign a treaty, am I correct Edward?"


"Looks that way Butchum."


"So be it. We shall return to our mainland victims of a stalemate."


Butchum turned toward his men and began to give them orders to board the
transports.


Edward had taken all he could take. He was at a boiling point.


"The only thing that will be returning is your dead corpse."


Edward lifted his sword and stepped towards Butchum, preparing to take of
Butchum's head with one blow.


"My Liege!" Pierre shouted.


Butchum turned around just in time to see Edward's sword high in the air.


With one quick motion, Pierre unsheathed his knife and flung it deep into
Edward's breastplate.


The sword fell out of Edward's hand and fell harmlessly to the ground. He sank
to his knees, both hands gripping the dagger stuck in his chest.


"You Frankish bastards" Edward muttered as he fell face first onto the ground,
driving the dagger deeper into his heart.




"They just killed King Edward!" cried the men waiting not so patiently behind
Henry.


"Stand fast!" Henry ordered.


"But Sir, they just killed our King."


"I see that, and I order you to stand fast."


"But Sir!"


"Stand Fast! I shall see for myself what they want."


Henry rode towards Butchum, firmly aware that he was now the king.




"My Liege, I'm sorry. He was going to kill you."


"Don't apologize Pierre, you saved my life. You're pretty handy with that
knife."


"Yes my Liege, the wolves in these parts are nasty."


"You will be justly rewarded for your service Pierre."


"Thank you my Liege."




Henry rode up to where Edward's horse stood and dismounted. He could see
Edward's body laying face down in a pool of his own blood.


Henry walked towards Butchum, wondering if that would be his fate as well.




"What is the meaning of this Butchum?"


"I didn't want it to end this way Henry."


"Then how did you envision it ending?"


"I came here today to offer Edward a treaty. He refused and tried to attack me.
My villager here saved my life by striking him with his dagger."


Henry breathed a sigh of relief.


"If what you say is true, then you will again offer your hand in truce?"


"Yes Henry, I tried to offer it to Edward, but the only thing that he wanted was
war."


Henry knew that Butchum told the truth, and was glad that someone finally saw
the war through the same eyes as his own.


"Don't worry Butchum. I believe you. As the new King of Briton, I also offer my
hand in truce as well."


Now it was Butchum's turn to breathe a sigh of relief.


"So be it." Butchum said as he gripped Henry's hand. "We just want to go home."


"I understand Butchum. May you return on more favorable terms next time for a
nice cup of tea."


"It's a deal." Butchum said as he turned towards the transport, ready to head
home, then paused.


"By the way Henry, how did this all begin?"


"I don't know." Henry replied, "Perhaps Queen's Knight 1 to Queen's Bishop 3?"


A slight smile appeared on Butchum's lips. "I believe you're right."




And with that, this war was over. But there would be more. Maybe not on this
land, but others like it. With people not unlike themselves. People that have no
reason to dislike each other, but somehow ending up in war that they didn't
create. Is this how life was supposed to be? Perhaps in some worlds not, but in
this one, it is and will always be.






The End








Credits




Contributing Authors: Tack

(in order of first posting) VagrantKnight

Space_Ghost

Rojhas

Cherub Shadow 8357

GoldenHorde

MilTan

ThEinsanE

Sando

Zertron

Mousy

Hope1752

Wuzat

Sharpener


Editors: Tack

Space_Ghost




Written January 5, 2000  January 13, 2000




Original (unedited) posting of this story can be found at

http://aok.heavengames.com/cgi-bin/aokcgi/display.cgi?action=st&fn=1&tn=11712


Persia is the risk worth it?

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Elite Knight
Forum Member posted 04-04-00 02:08 PM EDT (US)
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Hello
Wel Persia is the only cav, based civ in the game, it doesn't get champs. a
champ is the main unit of any half-sane non rookie rm player in this game. the
persia bonuses are great, the navy is great the tech tree is great. but the
dambo is useless, and you don't get champs. you must use knights (paladins),
knights are easly killed by pikas and camels cost a lot and are only good in
large numbers in imperial.
i never realy played persia since my rookie days so is the risk worth it???

no dum answers please...

------------------
There are no bad civs only bad players.

Author Replies:

Juggernaught_NK
Forum Member posted 04-04-00 02:13 PM EDT (US)    1 / 28
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If you use heavy scorpians to protect pals and camels you can do pretty decent
(but thats one heck of an expensive army).
------------------
juggernaut jger-nt
1.Something, such as a belief or an institution, that elicits blind and
destructive devotion or to which people are ruthlessly sacrificed.
2.An overwhelming, advancing force that crushes or seems to crush everything in
its path.


Darth Maul
Forum Member posted 04-04-00 02:31 PM EDT (US)    2 / 28
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Don't forget the Persian elephants are strong against everything except
Pikmens, Bombard Towers and massed siege army (Siege Onagers, Heavy Scorpions
and Trebuchets)
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"At last we will have revenge" - Darth Maul, Sith Lord


armagedn
Forum Member posted 04-04-00 02:31 PM EDT (US)    3 / 28
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Persia has problems on land w/o champs, and a highly-predictable, gold-intensive
unit selection in Imperial. Fast working docks and a full naval tech tree make
them a very viable water race, but as they get no other advantages (save the
underrated but highly effective dock work-rate bonus), they are still no better
than third or 4th best on the water.
Although Persia can Flush effectively, they are still slower than China. Their
cavalry is inferior to the Franks. They get no Imperial infantry, and their best
anti-infantry units, hand cannoneers and heavy scorps, are expensive and
difficult to mass (at least in comparable number to the infantry they face).

They seem to be gaining some favor of late, which appears to focus on the
defensive (and, of course, OFFENSIVE) strength of their 2X HP TC's. Unless you
are a complete "douche" bag, Brits are a far better option for TC booming or TC
wars.

There are better options in all areas of Persian proficiency, and late game
limitations and gold dependency put the Persians squarely amongst the ranks of
the "fair-to-middling" civs.


porox
Forum Member posted 04-04-00 02:34 PM EDT (US)    4 / 28
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I personally prefer to stay away from playing as Persia.
First of all, we have to ask: what does Persia have to
offer? Elephants and TCs. Are TCs useful? Yes, to some
extent. What about Elephants? If it weren't for Monks,
Elephants would be a great unit, rolling over everything
including Pikemen. But we all know how easy it is to
convert Elephants using Monks, which takes the least amount
of skill compared to converting other units.

Why don't they get champs? The answer is simple: because
they have War Elephants, the only truly unique unit, according to ES_Sandyman.

To say that the Paladin-HC combo is reliable is a big
stretch, not even comparing it to other civs' combos.

There are 2 glaring limitations in the Persian military:

1) the lack of a wide range of units to choose from.
The Persians lack some key elements of a well-balanced
military:

a) the Bracer tech
b) Arbalests, or an equally-good archer unit(Mangudai)
c) Champions, or an equally-good infantry unit(Axemen)

2) the lack of a cutting-edge military bonus.
We all are proud of having fully-upgraded Paladins, but
are we as proud as the Franks with their +20% HP bonus?
I wouldn't say so...and with the abundance of Pikemen
it makes it so much easier for the Persian Paladin to
be countered.

What does this leave the Persians with?

A sub-par military that is, perhaps, compensated by its
2X HP TCs. But do they really compensate? By the time
we get to Imperial, we have Trebs, so the 2X HP are not
a big deal. This means the Persian military suffers the
above disadvatages, 1) and 2), in Imperial.



armagedn
Forum Member posted 04-04-00 02:46 PM EDT (US)    5 / 28
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Darth Maul:
Have you ever massed elephants?

Have you ever SEEN massed elephants?

Elephants, even Elite ones, die to cheap, expendable Castle units (pikes), and
are readily converted by cheaper (though not inexpensive) Castle units (monks).
Apart from these notable drawbacks, they are also monstrously difficult to
obtain in any worthwhile numbers, due to the massive food/gold economy needed to
support them.

For the record, I HAVE seen elephant masses, but never in a game where the
Persian player would not have dominated with any other unit (specifically,
Paladins). These have always been lopsided affairs, with near-expert-guided
dumbos stomping frightenened, panic-stricken near-rookie vills into mulch.

I can also recall seeing massed elephants in a game where the Persian player was
in the pocket (a little lyrical alliteration there, eh?) of a 3v3, and went
nearly untouched while booming, as his allies covered his flanks. Even in a
scenario such as this, you are still effectively playing a 2v3 until the
elephants come bursting out of a monster can o' whoopa$$ - by which time, the
game may well be (and probably is) decided.

Last I checked, war elephants ranked numero uno on the MFO poll of least
effective UU for its cost. I shouldn't wonder.


agios_katastrof
Forum Member posted 04-04-00 02:54 PM EDT (US)    6 / 28
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I would be happy to have Persia in Cont/Balt/Medit/Islands maps. Yes, Persia at
first glance appears to be the 2nd best paladin civ. So why choose Persia, when
you can choose Franks?
There are two focal variables in AOK at the moment. They are: 1) Economy, and 2)
the TC, which is basically a corollary of 1). And yes, Persia is quite gifted in
these two points. Yes, I think Brits do better than Persia in both these points,
but Persia just runs ahead of the Franks. Dock 1st starts are easy to do with
Persia, paving the road for a solid econ for the rest of the game. In castle,
your booming potential is only 2nd to Brits (some would say superior to Brits).
And yeah, Franks have that cheap castle, but not as cheap as Persian wooden
castles that require no murder holes, and goes up much faster.

As for the military, the i don't use elephants, and lack of champs hurts. But
you do have a full navy (including CGs and ECGs, which the Brits sorely lack),
and however expensive, Paladin/HC combo is pretty awesome. I try to use the
wooden castles until I can muster a decent HC force. And unlike Franks, you also
have Hvy camels at your disposal, should you be fighting other paladin civs.

In short, I feel that Persia is sort of a hybrid of Franks and Brits. Yes, they
are 2nd to Frank's military, and 2nd to Brit's econ, but it is an interesting,
and imho, an effective hybrid.

-agios_katastrof

[This message has been edited by agios_katastrof (edited 04-04-2000).]


Darth Maul
Forum Member posted 04-04-00 03:57 PM EDT (US)    7 / 28
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For me my Persian Imperial army will consists with massed elephants supported by
Hand Cannoneers (Anti-infantry units e.g. Pikmen) and they kill monks from
range to prevent your elephants from being converted
Elephants are for use in the Imperial age, so you can get the Faith technology
(Your units are 50% harder for enemy monks to convert)

------------------
"At last we will have revenge" - Darth Maul, Sith Lord

[This message has been edited by Darth Maul (edited 04-04-2000).]


armagedn
Forum Member posted 04-04-00 04:49 PM EDT (US)    8 / 28
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Darth Maul:
Well, you apparently didn't read my last post, but on the odd chance you read
THIS one....

Monks (range 9, 12 w/ Block Printing) outrange hand cannoneers (range 7). If
your elephants are fronting (or moving alonside) your hc's, they will be
converted before the hc's can shoot the monks. If not, the hc's are prone to
several counters (mangos, skirms, arbs, upgraded cavaliers/paladins).

Add to that my contention that you will not be able to mass both elephants and
hand cannoneers - I sincerely doubt you can mass elephants, period. If you do,
you need to upgrade your opponents.


SK_Requiem
Forum Member posted 04-04-00 04:53 PM EDT (US)    9 / 28
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Even though it is monstrously expensive, hand cannons, pals and eles are nearly
unstoppable. If you combine them with trebs or bombard cannons you got one hell
of an army.
------------------
Water runs deep, but the blood of a clansman runs deeper.


armagedn
Forum Member posted 04-04-00 05:48 PM EDT (US)    10 / 28
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SK_Requiem:
"Even though it is monstrously expensive, hand cannons, pals and eles are nearly
unstoppable. If you combine them with trebs or bombard cannons you got one hell
of an army."

Who could argue that? (Well, I'll argue that bombard cannons are UTTERLY
WORTHLESS, but that's a topic for another thread.) The point is that the combo
described IS monstrously expensive. Prohibitively so. So much so, that either
you will never, EVER achieve it, or, should you do so, the game is already
decided. (Or it's a DM.)

For anyone considering eles AND paladins (to say nothing of hc's, etc.), where
the hell are you getting the gold? Furthermore, an Imperial army of this nature
is incredibly difficult to field and maintain for the extreme food costs
involved. A fishing or farming operation on a gigantic scale, and well-protected
for a long period of time, must be provided. Add to that the fact that none of
these units are cheap to replace, and that with all the boats/vills required to
feed them, it will be difficult to achieve mass.

An opponent countering you with mere pikes can still claim numerous kills at
minimal expense, saving his gold until your well runs dry, then the champ hordes
and trebs will mop up what's left.

[This message has been edited by armagedn (edited 04-04-2000).]


Elite Knight
Forum Member posted 04-04-00 06:38 PM EDT (US)    11 / 28
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this post is starting to look very interesting .
Persia is one of the best civs on sea (2nd after byz i would say). having faster
ducks sure helps at the 14 min. galls war. but on land they are to slow. the tc
is great but i am not a cheap player and will only tc push if pushed so i find
it a good defansive bonus. the extra food gives you more time to find the sheep
or even start with berries, and the extra wood gives you a better duck time. on
land when you start fighting on the 17-18 min mark, the other civ seem to do a
better job. if you cut a persian player from his gold he is dead. the dambos are
very expansive and i don't think i ever seen more than 20 used in a game. i
think that persia is great on water but would not be a civ i wold like to play
on land. i normaly play the viks but i am realy unhappy with the viking navy,
and i don't like archers. now it seems that the franks would be a very good civ
for me, they get good inf, good navy and great knights. the uu is kinda useless
but is a good ram killer in castle. the champion paladin combo is very deadly so
i will have to try it
keep posting this is getting very interesting.

------------------
There are no bad civs only bad players.


VuP_DeathDogz
Forum Member posted 04-04-00 06:51 PM EDT (US)    12 / 28
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Persians imho is the 3rd best sea race, their only second to vikes who get docs
faster up and get res faster and byz, i think persians are tied with cels for
3rd spot on water. On land i would choose GOTH over persians, why ? because with
goth i can do a fair castle of 16:40 and stop and TC pushes/imp and TRY to flood
the enemy with my cheapo champs or just attack with huskies ramz. With Persians
imho YOU *HAVE* to win before your enemy imps, i mean realisticly Persians have
VERY expensive units, hvy scorps cost a ton, hc upgrades proly is about same
thing as a champ BUT their HP are way to low, and skirmies own them =\. Elefents
iw ould only build to protect my castle....200 food ugh...what a waste =\. this
is all about RM btw, in DM i guees its a different deal but still i think
persians are crapy =\

Elite Knight
Forum Member posted 04-04-00 07:17 PM EDT (US)    13 / 28
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The viking navy doesn't have fire ships wich are very important in the early
stages of the sea war. and that makes them 3rd.
------------------
There are no bad civs only bad players.


porox
Forum Member posted 04-04-00 08:13 PM EDT (US)    14 / 28
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Elite Knight:
I don't see why the Frank UU would be anything near useless.
Although they are less tough than Champions, they provide
a crucial element that both Paladins and Champions lack:
ranged attack. In addition, the ranged attack is Infantry
damage, which is most often more solid than Archer damage,
because of the way the Damage is calculated. With Champions, their damaging
ability is restricted by
their movement(which is inferior to other Champions), the terrain, and
surrounding units, which
will place considerable restriction when many Paladins
are running around(which take up more space, by the way).

Persia, however, doesn't have anything near the military
capability of the Franks, both in versatility and efficiency of their units.

And what's wrong with the Frank boat boom on a water map?
Aren't the extra resources from boats enough to give them
a foothold in Imperial, one which is more secure than that
of the Persians, for instance.






Vostok
Forum Member posted 04-04-00 08:33 PM EDT (US)    15 / 28
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Unless your in DM don't use elephants as your main unit EVER, i can't think of
one instance when it would be useful. They are, imo, meant to be a support unit
so use them as such and in that respect they aint bad. They are actually 'cost
effective' against everything -but- pikes and monks. I might make 2 or 3 eles
for the terror factor, then mop up the pikes with a more reasonable force.
When i first played Persia i discounted Monks in general, but because of the
tactics commonenly used in Castle today their weakness in this branch is very
sourly felt.

If your goin to play with Persia, and your playing to win, you had -better- use
those TCs or else regret that those pike armies keep tearing up your troops.



czarempire
Forum Member posted 04-04-00 08:37 PM EDT (US)    16 / 28
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War Elephants are not that good in random map because they are too expensive.
build lots of paladins, camels, and archers. Use about 15 Elephants as siege
weapons.
[This message has been edited by czarempire (edited 04-04-2000).]


KiNG_MiNoS
Forum Member posted 04-04-00 08:57 PM EDT (US)    17 / 28
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Here's my feelings on the Persians:
They are possibly the fastest water map civ. The only civ with a non-risky dock
first opening.

The problem with the civ, as you stated Elite Knight, is that the only decent
Imperial Age unit they have is the paladin. Their paladins are second only to
the Frank paladin, but Persians will field them much faster.

But....

Let's think of this as a team scenario. Brits, Vikes, Chinese, Japanese, and
Byzantine all have fully upgradable arbalests, which is the best compliment to
the paladin IMO. They are also the most popular water civs.

If military bases can be combined, and the team fights as one unit, the Persian
paladins become a great asset to the team.

-----

Also, I'd have to imagine Persians would be a popular pick in "Bloody Style"
games. If you can only have 1 TC, why not have one that produces quickly and has
2X hp?

------------------
While you were out getting a life, I was kicking some butts in AOK :)


Elite Knight
Forum Member posted 04-04-00 09:53 PM EDT (US)    18 / 28
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i have some good recorded game of Mark with persia, i didn't realy see what he
was doing cose i was fighting FX and when finished with fx and when finished FX
i fought his friend (FX had the most unlucky spot ever on conti but with good
fishing and later boomed 2 170 vills but it was to late). but if i'm not wrong
he only used paladins in that game (just ask my woodies and my pikas ). i'l have
to find and watch that one .
now about the TAs well why would you get TA's? tofight of pikas of corse. but if
the other guy gets camels?
well the champion is the most usefull unit in the game it can kill anything but
archers and canoniers. and the paladins do that job well. i haven't seen TAs
used for a long time in a good/expert game. the only use i ever seen is killing
rams in castle.

------------------
There are no bad civs only bad players.


Microslave
Forum Member posted 04-05-00 00:19 AM EDT (US)    19 / 28
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Its obvious that the Persia Bonus lies in Castle, or Fuedal, but mass phants are
good, when combined with 8 Paladins/or cavs... and either hand cannons, or
hscorps. (Both kill pikas, and camels) The Cavielars kill monks, (Light Cav work
well if your opponent doesn't protect them) The Persia Army is VERY gold
dependant, but I would say they are one of the top contenders for navy, they get
everything Naval tech except that less wood one, and that dock bonus is
AMAZING... Their TC's would be better, if ppl didn't plop them down everytime
they get 275 wood, then their bonus would be worth it... Sure they miss champs,
but unless its a really long game, longswords/pikas work well @ killing
Pikas/Camels...
Persia need that Monk Resitant upgrade!!, and if your with a byzantine ally,
that combo is great. He provides the inf/counters, and you get
monks/phants/hc's. Phants cost too much is castle. You usually wanna imp fast,
but at a mind boggling 200 food... that means with 5 Phants you could've
imped...

Persia has a GREAT team bonus against those dreaded longbow legions, but their
main bonus is rendered useless once you hit castle...
My thoughts...



soup or man
Forum Member posted 04-05-00 00:43 AM EDT (US)    20 / 28
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pikes and Onagers, thats all it takes. the only decent counter to the pikes is
the hand cannoneers, which are simply demolished in 1 volley of an Onager. even
if your onager is destroyed by remaining HCs(not often due to the far range of
the cannoneers from the onager and their horrible accuracy.) you still put a
HUGE dent in them. throw in a few monkies and you've got yourself a dead
persian. most official manuals say that any sane persian will have cav archers
with the elephants, which would help against the pike attacks, if the cav
archers didn't die in like 2 hits of a pike and could actually hit the target!
maybe after patch when they are better they will make a better elephant escort.
now if you could somehow have mangudais with your ele's you'd have 1 mean
machine
also Minos, saracens have full arbs i believe.

[This message has been edited by soup or man (edited 04-05-2000).]

Cherub Lobby
HGS Cherub posted 04-05-00 01:12 AM EDT (US)    21 / 28
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It just a champs thing.
Persia lacks the one thing that makes them viable.. A good gold based counter
unit for the cheap wood and food based units.

You are dead when your most effective combo, an expensive army of Eles/Paladins
& HC's run into a bunch of Elite Skirms and Pikes. Even if you win the battle
the enemy has gold to burn.

Other Civs have the Champs to throw at this "cheapo" combo of Skirms and Pikes
and then they can follow up with other good unique or more expensive units.

I play random Civ's a lot and I shudder when I get Persia (although not as much
as if I get Gothsurggggh). They are just too predictable and even though I know
what is coming I just can't get the units too defend or attack properly.


------------------
Steve Ryan
Scenarios Created
http://aok.heavengames.com/blacksmith/php/getfile.php3?type=Campaign&id=106


SHS_Rubblarp
Forum Member posted 04-05-00 08:36 AM EDT (US)    22 / 28
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This is one of these threads that could evolve into one of this "what are a
good/expert player" thread and I have tons of things that I dont agree with on
those points. But lets just ignore that (since Ive discussed it many times with
both EK and Minos without getting anywhere).
IMO Persia is a good booming civ if you with booming means to get lots of
villagers and boats.

If you on the other hand with booming means getting a good economy and then make
a flood with a unit in imperial they are not above average.

They lack as everyone has stated options and especially the champion instead
they have a pretty good speed advantage but what good is speed if you dont use
it for a fast attack? Persia has a really good castle defense and also a good
attack (if you use TCs offensivly which I consider boring).

Persia is one of the civs that I rarely see in any games (if not random civ) and
they are not fun to play (IMO) and the annoying to play against (2x HP TCs are
frustrating IMO).

Persia can dock faster then say vikings and also get very fast times but my
first choice on the water at the moment is the japz (followed by brits) since
the japz will get a huge food income (which I like to sling to teammates since I
dont have enough wood to make enough TCs). The brits are second because of their
cheap TCs which will make them able
to "convert" the food to villagers. Vikings are always a must in teamgames but
they are forced to make a huge scale galley attack in feudal to have a chance on
sea (this is a good tactic which I fear whenever I play a viking.. luckily most
people trust those that says feudal galley attacks sux). Chinese are also good
aswell as the Celts. Byza and sarcs are decent on island maps but they dont have
the real edge.

Gotta go back to my history studyin.. cya.


Elite Knight
Forum Member posted 04-05-00 01:58 PM EDT (US)    23 / 28
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SHS_Rubblarp had a very interesting point. it's a bit of topic but what the hell
In my good old rookie days i don't think i ever seen a large scale war on water.
but now, on any full water map (archip, islands, t-islands) i almost all the
fighting takes place at sea, i play random map so i get water maps a lot. the
fighting at sea starts a lot earlyer than on land. normaly fighting in sea
starts at about 13-15 min. when the evryone are trying to get the other guy's
fish and control the sea. on the full water maps the team that controls the sea
wins the game. i play the viks in my real games (most are jusr 4 fun so i play
all the civs). but i vikings always lose on sea in early castle. the civ that
normaly gets control of the sea is Byz and than brits (yes brits, brits get
cheap tcs and that gives tham a better boom on land, you need to spend less wood
on tc and you can get a better navy). the brit navy is full it's one of the best
navys in the game. but the brit navy is only good in team games. in 1v1 you can
simply get towers that the brit player can't distroy without canon galls (only
real use for keeps). some players think that you can win the the game on land on
maps like team islands but they are wrong. the one who controls the sea wins the
game.

------------------
There are no bad civs only bad players.


HT Leader
Forum Member posted 04-05-00 02:06 PM EDT (US)    24 / 28
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the civ sucks on it own (in my opinion on land)
but on water... it kicks......

i believe they can be great on land in a 3v3 game though....

the 2 allies hold off the enemys while the persians build some elephants.....

when they are ready... they allies make a attack forward and charge.... they may
lose a few but with elephants.. you have some "minor" problems.... if the allies
used champs, pikes andlongbowmen(the brits of course)... and have elephants in
front of them.... you seriously have MAJOR problems....

elephants are quite easly taken on there own.... but with the help of the brits
or teuts.... or practicaly any other civ... elephants can be something to recone
with....

geez 10-15 elephants are hard to deal with on there own.........

elite war elephants (trample), are definatly problems in large packs



The Mad Onion
Forum Member posted 04-05-00 02:11 PM EDT (US)    25 / 28
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Well, IMHO, no. I just don't feel safe in the fact that my main, most powerful
force is so easily countered. Paladins and Eles get piked, and my HC's
get...uh..skirmed. I do like their fast working TC's and docks, but I'm always
on the lookout for evil pikers .
oh btw, VuP_DeathDogz, did we play on the zone? I seem to remember seeing your
name somewhere, but I'm not sure... just wondering.

------------------
And now for something completely different....

()) {crayola} ))>


agios_katastrof
Forum Member posted 04-05-00 02:34 PM EDT (US)    26 / 28
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Somewhat OT:
Regarding feudal galley rushes.

There is a 3v3 Aloha vs DevilZ game on MFO that illustrates a feudal galley rush
pretty well. Granted that the Alohas aren't exactly what they used to be, while
the DevilZ, well they are DevilZ. Anyway, in that Cont game, one of the wingman
DevilZ, a Chinese player, does a late castle (19+ min), but with lotsa feudal
galleys. It more or less wins the game for them. The game ends in late
castle/early imp, rather early for a 3v3 game.

From my ltd exp however, I find that feudal galley rushes are a lot more
effective on Cont maps, and don't work as well on Baltic/Medit. I think this is
because on Baltic/Medit, the rushee's allies can assist easily, and fend off the
feudal galley rush. The rushee also can run off his fbs in so many more
directions.

Once the fireships arrive, it's like knights coming to get your feudal archers.
Unfortunately, you don't have spearmen equivalents. And yeah, lack of Viking
fireships really puts a dent in them. But I guess that's kinda like Persia
lacking champs (going back to this thread). What also hurts, imho, is that
castle age demo ships aren't that ineffective.

-agios_katastrof


Elite Knight
Forum Member posted 04-06-00 00:40 AM EDT (US)    27 / 28
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Here is the game i was talking about:
http://mrfixitonline.com/readPosting.asp?PostingId=34014 this is a very good
game. FX gets 170+ vills/boats in this one, and a very good Persian game by
DaRq_Mark.
it was a great game overall 2 watch.

------------------
There are no bad civs only bad players.


soup or man
Forum Member posted 04-06-00 00:56 AM EDT (US)    28 / 28
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did you lose Onion? thats a pretty good indication that you played him.




Pumping villi's

B E N N I E
Forum Member posted 04-05-00 09:09 AM EDT (US)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
I always think that i am pumping villi's all throught the game.... But when i
go to soc stats i find that i have usually at the most 65 villi's. it is my
understanding that you need a LOT more that that what am i doing wrong??
Author Replies:

AFK_Tick
Forum Member posted 04-05-00 09:40 AM EDT (US)    1 / 13
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--
How many town centers do you build?
What population limit are you playing on?

------------------
"I plan to eat cheese until I'm full."



RCF Day
Forum Member posted 04-05-00 09:51 AM EDT (US)    2 / 13
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--
It's easy while battles are intense to forget to make villagers and boom, you
get lost in the moment and never even realize that you have forgotten while
it may seem your constantly building villagers in truth your just constantly
busy. As you gain experiance you'll get better at it as long as you make a
conscious effort to do so. Also just like AFK_Tick says you could be
forgetting to build TC's.
------------------
Knight_Day


B E N N I E
Forum Member posted 04-05-00 09:59 AM EDT (US)    3 / 13
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i build 2 tcs right after castleing. and i end up with about 5. do i need
more??


Juggernaught_NK
Forum Member posted 04-05-00 10:07 AM EDT (US)    4 / 13
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--
I would go with about 10 TCs on average. It seems like a lot but it allows me
to jump from 30 villigers or so in early castle to 125 in like 20 minutes.
Build them always by wood if not by a mineral and then you can farm and chop
trees with them. Build them by all the neutral gold and stone mines and pump
guys on to those resources. Also put a TC or 2 in a far off untouched corner
of the map with 1 of each military building and a couple farmers and
woodcutters, this has saved me more then once.
------------------
juggernaut jger-nt
1.Something, such as a belief or an institution, that elicits blind and
destructive devotion or to which people are ruthlessly sacrificed.
2.An overwhelming, advancing force that crushes or seems to crush everything
in its path.


RCF Day
Forum Member posted 04-05-00 10:19 AM EDT (US)    5 / 13
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--
Just thought of something...how long do your games usually last? Don't expect
to have 100's of vills in a half hour game. You should have about 100 vills
in about 50-60 minuites minimum, from there you do the math...if you don't
have 100 by 50-60 minuites your forgetting to boom period I dont care what
you say...your concentrating so much on armies that your not booming and in
this game you must be able to do both.
If your games always last an hour and you always only have only 60 vills or
less I'd say your low on TC's or simply getting to many tech's or something
so you won't have to res to boom or your just plain forgetting. There is no
set exact amount of TC's you should have but don't sit there with 1000 wood
and not use it...keep an eye on your wood and see if thats your problem, when
you see 275 wood and don't need any more military building get TC's.

------------------
Knight_Day


RebelQuelled
Forum Member posted 04-05-00 10:32 AM EDT (US)    6 / 13
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I try to play a non-booming games with Mongols and I still end up with ~15
TCs after usual 50 min of gameplay. Number of vill are any where from 100~150.
Just get in the habit of selecting a resource and clicking lots of h-c-c-c.
That pretty much does it.

Also, when you are short on food, it helps to queue up the 3~4 farms early
near your TC and selecting the farm as the gathering point.

A heathy amount of villager before going to Imperial is, I say, around 70~75
around 28~35 mins(could be delayed if there is a frequent castle fights).

On 75 pop games, which I play once in a while, I make about 45 villagers.

[This message has been edited by RebelQuelled (edited 04-05-2000).]


Eumaies
Forum Member posted 04-05-00 10:36 AM EDT (US)    7 / 13
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I don't know if you really need 10-15 TC's to produce enough villagers
(though they have other uses of course)... even with just 5-7 if you keep
hitting hcc over and over again you should be producing enough.... i guess
the more TC's you have though the easier it is to make up for being absent
minded by producing 10 at a time.


B E N N I E
Forum Member posted 04-05-00 12:47 PM EDT (US)    8 / 13
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thank you guys the advice worked.. I used celts and with the wood chop bonus
i made about 5 TC's right after castle and even though i got my arse handed (
darm frankish paladins) my villager hi was 85 the highest i can remember..
once again thank you.

Elite Knight
Forum Member posted 04-05-00 01:38 PM EDT (US)    9 / 13
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I will post a game on mfo today, an Expert 4v4. DaRq_FX gets 170 vills in
this one.
------------------
There are no bad civs only bad players.


NinfoPlezr
Forum Member posted 04-05-00 01:43 PM EDT (US)    10 / 13
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I once built 195 vills, beleive it. Think I won that game too.
------------------
ninfoplezr was here.


HT Leader
Forum Member posted 04-05-00 01:44 PM EDT (US)    11 / 13
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thats what brits are for!!! TCS!!!!!
and the tuetons on the offensive

Mousy
Forum Member posted 04-05-00 05:22 PM EDT (US)    12 / 13
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--
shift-unit queues 5 units at a time - so H shift-C not HCCCCC
------------------
The answer is "more Pikes!" - what was the question?
--
Zone name: CaptnClaw



B E N N I E
Forum Member posted 04-06-00 02:01 AM EDT (US)    13 / 13
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thanks for the tip



Improve Heavy camel... just a bit

Soldier Phobos
Forum Member posted 04-02-00 01:17 AM EDT (US)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeap, I tested a combat between a Heavy Camel and a Frankish Paladin, and the
Frankish Paladin defeated the Heavy Camel, with just 2 HP remaining!!!  If
they're fully upgraded, the Frankish Paladin will survive with 24 HP remaining,
so...
As Camels are supposed to kill Cavalry units, Heavy camels should have 2/0 armor
and +24 attack vs Cavalry. However, I think Camels shouldn't have that bonus
against eles, 'cause:

- Elephants are bigger than camels


Post your opinions, please!

------------------
Founder of the Latin
Design Team.

Author Replies:

RebelQuelled
Forum Member posted 04-02-00 01:21 AM EDT (US)    1 / 10
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That stat is off.
Heavy Camel beats Frankish Paladin on 1 vs. 1 with 15 HP left.

I have tested this more than 10 times.

Make sure your setting is at post-imperial to get an accurate result.


Soldier Phobos
Forum Member posted 04-02-00 01:24 AM EDT (US)    2 / 10
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I've tried this afternoon several times, and the Frankish Paladin was still
defeatin' the camel!!!
------------------
Founder of the Latin
Design Team.


Trippin Daily
Forum Member posted 04-02-00 01:55 AM EDT (US)    3 / 10
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Did you give the camel all the upgrades?
Trippin Daily


Juggernaught_NK
Forum Member posted 04-02-00 08:36 AM EDT (US)    4 / 10
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1 on 1 is inacurate. Try 40 H-camels vs 40 Frankish Palidens and 15 H-Camels
will survive.
------------------
juggernaut jger-nt
1.Something, such as a belief or an institution, that elicits blind and
destructive devotion or to which people are ruthlessly sacrificed.
2.An overwhelming, advancing force that crushes or seems to crush everything in
its path.


UST_alias
Forum Member posted 04-02-00 11:15 AM EDT (US)    5 / 10
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
H.camel : frank paladin
attack per hit -15 -24
HP 120 192
total hit need 8 8
conclusion: draw game(the one get first hit win)


Lrd_Darksaber
Forum Member posted 04-02-00 11:29 AM EDT (US)    6 / 10
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rebel Quelled: Was the level easy or easiest. I believe on the scenario editor
after easy the Civilization Bonuses are not counted. Well, that always happens
when I try it.
------------------
The Dark Side is everywhere!


Remi
Forum Member posted 04-02-00 07:03 PM EDT (US)    7 / 10
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Soldier Phobos
Your tests are absolutely correct, a Frank Knight with full upgrades will beat a
camel with full upgrades and a Frank Paladin will beat a Heavy Camel. This
totally sucks, camels are expensive so one expects them to at-least do their job
well! On top of that Camels suck against every other non-cavalry unit except for
skirmishers and perhaps archers.

So yes something has to be done to improve them. My suggestion would be to give
the camel +1 to attack and 1/1 armor. In my opinion if you are paying 65 gold
you better get something for it.



Micr0boy
Forum Member posted 04-02-00 07:37 PM EDT (US)    8 / 10
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think it wouldn't set the game too off balance if we improved em. Really same
with pikes too. What good does a counter unit do if it can't beat the unit it is
supposed to counter. Sure it is more economical, but if a key battle is won
because of this, the winner can take more land and foward build thus greatly
offsetting the cost.
------------------
--and yes, I am a small person--


Remi
Forum Member posted 04-02-00 09:18 PM EDT (US)    9 / 10
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Personally I think the Pikes are perfectly balanced, sure they cant beat a
Paladin one on one (or two on one) but they are dirt cheep and fast to make.
If one is facing a Frank or a Persian and the Paladins caught one by surprise
then one should rethink his game.



Soldier Phobos
Forum Member posted 04-05-00 11:47 PM EDT (US)    10 / 10
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, if you don't want to give 'em better armor, attack bonus or HP's, I found
the solution:
Give them a faster attack!!

They should attack, let's say, 25% faster, don't you think so?

------------------
Founder of the Latin
Design Team.




Why does nobody play the Byzantines????

CanadianMafiaX
Forum Member posted 04-02-00 09:17 PM EDT (US)
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--
I cant understand it, why do ppl never be the Byzantines??? True that they
may have a Bad special unit but the +40%building hp imperial age!!! and not
to mention that huge tech tree!!! plz somebody give me the answer. CYA on the
zone.
------------------
YOU MAY HAVE WON THE BATTL BUT YOU WILL NOT WIN THE WAR.....

Author Replies:

Firebird
Forum Member posted 04-02-00 09:25 PM EDT (US)    1 / 20
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I LOVE THE BYZ! And their UU is good. It has 1 purpose. TAKE OUT BARRACKS
UNITS. Their UU's can take out an all Barracks unit attack easy! They are bad
vs. other mounted units but that is not what they should do. BYZ ROCK!!
------------------------------------------------------------

Those who oppose me shall turn to ashes in my wrath.


NinfoPlezr
Forum Member posted 04-02-00 09:32 PM EDT (US)    2 / 20
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Lie, I see Byz every third game. When my opponnent selects them it strikes
fear into my rigid heart...
------------------
ninfoplezr was here.


Isita
Forum Member posted 04-02-00 09:43 PM EDT (US)    3 / 20
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Well, I used bizantines, but they lack siege engineers, and I NEED siege
engineers

Cataphraction
Forum Member posted 04-02-00 10:48 PM EDT (US)    4 / 20
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I play Byz's most of the time because i like the added challenge of water
map's instead of the predictable arabia map.

Lao Tze
Forum Member posted 04-03-00 02:28 AM EDT (US)    5 / 20
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--
IMHO the byzantines are strong but dull to play. AOK is already too building
intensive. I sure don't enjoy to play a civ w/ bad units (lacking blast
furnace) and good buildings.

Super Paladin
Forum Member posted 04-03-00 02:34 AM EDT (US)    6 / 20
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--
Uhh... I would consider playing Byzantines, if and only if they had the blast
furnace
But, come to think of it, if they DID have it..., they would be too
powerful...


IamtheonlyKing
Forum Member posted 04-03-00 02:47 AM EDT (US)    7 / 20
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--

Whoah, Canadianmafia, same one as i am allied with? Oh and by the way if it
is you, when we play im going byzantines!!! Clan War!!! See you there.

------------------
Zone - Iamtheonlyking
E-mail - Michael@ttard.freeserve.co.uk
Visit my clan homepage
http://www.geocities.com/allkindsofkings
Tc+monk+Elbows+Lcav = Lots of armies killed.Add trebs = Everything killed



CanadianMafiaX
Forum Member posted 04-05-00 08:33 AM EDT (US)    8 / 20
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
this is to " IAMTHEONLYKING " i think that you are an ally of CanadianMafiaPG
(our leader) but i will play any time zm me. Zone Name = CanadianMafiaX ill
be on tonight but i live in Scotland and i couldnt hep but notice the co uk
so i should hate you english j/k . look forward to a game with you. i am on
every night from 6.

CYA on the Zone

[This message has been edited by CanadianMafiaX (edited 04-05-2000).]

[This message has been edited by CanadianMafiaX (edited 04-05-2000).]


Parcells
Forum Member posted 04-05-00 12:35 PM EDT (US)    9 / 20
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--
4 that I counted and myself makes atleast five people who apparently have
played Byzantines.
Therefore please change the thread topic


Pantheon
Forum Member posted 04-05-00 01:09 PM EDT (US)    10 / 20
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--
It is not that people don't play the Byz... it is just that they are usually
either a newbie or an expert civ. Let me explain...
Newbie civ... they have a great tech tree, full range of units, and give you
a broad understanding of the game.

Expert civ... to really excel at using the byzantines vs. good players you
need a good amount of experience and practice. It is too easy to fall into
the "I'll upgrade everything" rut and become ineffective with the Byz.
Because they do not have any early economic bonuses they are often shunned by
people infavor of civ's that will allow them to excel quickly.

Their UU is nice but is rarely produced in quanitities to counter counter
imperial champ floods. But their ability to produce every military unit is
what really gives them their advantages. Missing Blast Furnace and Seige
Engineers is seen as a critical flaw by many players. However, many experts
that use the Byz produce armies that are unpredictable using the multitude of
options to produce an army that will not be at a disadvantage because of the
missing techs... which often times cannot be done by other civs.

If you are going champs and trebs vs. your opponents champs and trebs, the
missing techs will put you at a disadvantage.

I recently played a fairly well known expert... his first attack consisted of
l-swords and x-bows. I repelled the advance and fevorishly pumped out knights
and skirmishers only to realize that was what he was expecting me to do...
His next attack swooped in with pikes, camels, and scorps. By playing on my
expected counter he demolished my mucho-expensive army with one that cost
significantly less, and I was now at his mercy (I lost big time)

his lack of BF and SE techs did not affect his game at all. He just played
his civ advantages to the fullest and smacked me around.


King Frodo
Forum Member posted 04-05-00 01:20 PM EDT (US)    11 / 20
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--
I think I can sum up why I like the Byz in one word: Versatility!
Massive tech tree, decent UU and a good balance of econ upgrades!

The challenge is getting through the first 30 minutes of the game without too
much trouble. At that point you can make the jump to imperial easier and
begin to really dominate the map. Usually I choose Byz in team games where I
know I can turtle for a while and make a conscious effort to focus on my
economy.


------------------
It is not impossibilities which fill us with the deepest despair, but
possibilities which we have failed to realize.

Robert Mallett


Elite Knight
Forum Member posted 04-05-00 01:37 PM EDT (US)    12 / 20
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--
That is not true, byz is one of the most played civs that has one of the
game's best uu.
------------------
There are no bad civs only bad players.


HT Leader
Forum Member posted 04-05-00 01:59 PM EDT (US)    13 / 20
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
i dont hate bys.... they counter (part of) every civ with cheap units!!!
in a 3vs3 game.... they would be great 1 bys, and 2 others vs .....

bys would be great for a support...

i believe they would suck on there own....

please dont ask but they just cant cut it when in a 1vs1

they lack siege enginears which can hurt without a allie and one or two of
the armor upgrades


AFK_Tick
Forum Member posted 04-05-00 02:44 PM EDT (US)    14 / 20
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
I saw a post here this week giving an analysis of the cataphract which
concluded that it wasn't useful. The poster said that a cataphract isn't
cost-effective against champions. However, there wasn't enough data to back
it up. Has anyone done any testing to show whether this is true or not?
------------------
"I plan to eat cheese until I'm full."



armagedn
Forum Member posted 04-05-00 03:35 PM EDT (US)    15 / 20
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Byz are indeed rare - in 1v1 (and even 2v2) play. Due to the fact that they
lack any economic boost until Imperial (only Goth is slower), this is
completely understandable.
However, to say you rarely encounter Byz is to reveal a lack of online
experience in 3v3 or 4v4 team play, for the Byzantines are very well
represented there. With their wonderful navy, Imp jumping ability to keep
your opponents on their toes, a fine and underrated team bonus, and a
remarkably diverse army, including one of the best bonuses in the game
(half-price counter units!), they make a fine addition to any 3v3 or 4v4 team.


James Thomas
Forum Member posted 04-05-00 04:53 PM EDT (US)    16 / 20
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
The Byzantines are excellent! I don't know what you mean by "bad special
unit" either. Cataphracts kick infantry butt!
Ok?


soup or man
Forum Member posted 04-05-00 08:10 PM EDT (US)    17 / 20
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
James, Cataphracts are too much of a specialty unit to cost 75 gold...massed
pikes can still do a number on them even with their bonus, and Camels have a
field day with them(not mams though). its like lining up a bunch of Mamelukes
as your front line of defense, sure they'll knock down the cavalry, but the
infantry/archers are going to destroy them, and even as just a counter the
price is too high. the Paladin is a much more versitile unit for the Byz.
Have you seen the price of Cataphract to Elite Cataphract?! that is way too
much to ask for in the imperial age when gold is a precious resource.

CanadianMafiaX
Forum Member posted 04-05-00 10:17 PM EDT (US)    18 / 20
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
This post is to ARMAGEDN. just to point out that in fact i am a VERY
experianced player with over 150 rated games on 1 name under my belt not to
mention the ones when i dont play rated. just wanted to point this out.

CanadianMafiaX
Forum Member posted 04-05-00 10:31 PM EDT (US)    19 / 20
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
I think i have now come to a conclusion (thanks all who replied) about the
Byzantines and why some ppl play them and most others dont.
here is a list of which i deem the most important factor (no 1) and least (no
5)
1) The lack of BLAST FURNACE.*****
2) The lack of SIEGE ENGINEERS.****
3) In rm games they are slow starters.***
4) They can only be good in the hands of an expert in a 1v1 game.**
5) The UU is fairly good but the upgrade cost is far to much and for the same
a paladin is better value.*
ok i hope that nobody slates me 4 my conclusion but plz correct me if you
think i am wrong. CYA on the zone

[This message has been edited by CanadianMafiaX (edited 04-05-2000).]


porox
Forum Member posted 04-05-00 10:39 PM EDT (US)    20 / 20
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--
Another thing to point out.
Byzantines strength lies in their versatility.(other
than Navy, Monks, and cheap Imp).

In most cases, the Chinese do a better job in versatility,
due to their fully-upgraded Cavaliers(which can defeat
Elite Cataphracts) and Heavy Camels. But not only do
they have versatility, but also powerful early econ
and cheaper techs.

The team games are where the Byz shine, where teammates
can reap the benefits of fast-healing monks and good
naval support.



Please help me with Samurai....

The Mad Onion
Forum Member posted 04-05-00 12:26 PM EDT (US)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
OK, I just did some testing with the Elite Samurai, and my results are really
strange. I wanted to see how good a samurai was against buildings compared to
the Japanese champ, so I had a Japanese champ and a ESamurai start slashing
apart two different houses. For some reason, the ESam did way better than the
champ, doing 20 points per hit! When I tried this with two barracks, it turned
out different, the champ doing more damage per hit. Why is this? Do ESams get
some weird bonus vs houses?? Or is it some weird building armor thing? If it was
building armor, wouldn't the champ still beat the ESam at wrecking houses? I
just don't understand. Please someone clarify this for me.
------------------
And now for something completely different....

()) {crayola} ))>

Author Replies:

Mousy
Forum Member posted 04-05-00 12:50 PM EDT (US)    1 / 12
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As the in-game tech tree shows, Sams have a bonus against buildings. I don't
know why it would have workedout differently agaisnt barracks. Are you sure both
barracks and units were post-imp?
------------------
The answer is "more Pikes!" - what was the question?
--
Zone name: CaptnClaw


[This message has been edited by Mousy (edited 04-05-2000).]


The Mad Onion
Forum Member posted 04-05-00 12:52 PM EDT (US)    2 / 12
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, I know Sams have a bonus vs buildings, but don't all infantry get the same
bonus? Or is the Samurai bonus more? And yes, all units tested were post-imp.Can
someone else do some testing on this to see if I am correct? All input is
appreciated, as I am trying to learn the Japanese civ, thanks.
------------------
And now for something completely different....

()) {crayola} ))>

[This message has been edited by The Mad Onion (edited 04-05-2000).]


Mousy
Forum Member posted 04-05-00 01:04 PM EDT (US)    3 / 12
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No, all infantry do not get the same bonus. Sams get a special anti-building
bonus that champs, even Jap champs, don't get. Look at the tech tree in the game
under castle.

------------------
The answer is "more Pikes!" - what was the question?
--
Zone name: CaptnClaw



The Mad Onion
Forum Member posted 04-05-00 01:06 PM EDT (US)    4 / 12
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Erm, all it says is "attack bonus vs buildings". It says the same for all the
infantry. What do you mean?
------------------
And now for something completely different....

()) {crayola} ))>


kc
Forum Member posted 04-05-00 01:38 PM EDT (US)    5 / 12
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
According to mrfixit's site, militia has no bonus vs building, men@arm has 1,
longswordmen has 2, and the two imperial infantry units have 3. All non-elite
unique infantry units have 2 and elite ones have 3, except throwingaxemen has 1
and elite throwingaxemen has 2, and both non-elite and elite tonic knight has 4.

HT Leader
Forum Member posted 04-05-00 01:55 PM EDT (US)    6 / 12
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
hmmmm..... guess you have to have 2 armies.... one for killing everything....
one for killing only houses!

Hydarnes
Forum Member posted 04-05-00 05:21 PM EDT (US)    7 / 12
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Both champs and Samies have exactly +3vs buildings.



------------------
"Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to
withstand in the evil day, and having done all to stand."--Ephesians 6:13

Zone: Hydarnes

ICQ:19925636



The Mad Onion
Forum Member posted 04-05-00 06:20 PM EDT (US)    8 / 12
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Then could someone please find out why they do more damage to houses? I don't
get why at all....
------------------
And now for something completely different....

()) {crayola} ))>


soup or man
Forum Member posted 04-05-00 08:20 PM EDT (US)    9 / 12
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
it probably has something to do with the building armor. maybe the house has no
armor and the sam does more damage to it(just because it has more atk), but the
champ swings faster, dealing less damamge, so when it comes up against a
barracks with some armor on it, the faster swinging champion can take it out
faster while some of the damage of the slower swinging sam is absorbed. just a
thought...i dont actually know if the jap champs swing faster or not.

The Mad Onion
Forum Member posted 04-05-00 08:26 PM EDT (US)    10 / 12
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thing is soup or man the Jap champ has more atk power than an ESam, and all Jap
infantry does swing faster. I don't know if the ESam swings faster than the Jap
champ though, so that may be it. Does anyone have some numbers they can throw up
here so I can find out for sure? Like the building armor, or if the ESam swings
faster??
------------------
And now for something completely different....

()) {crayola} ))>


Vaidency
Forum Member posted 04-05-00 08:37 PM EDT (US)    11 / 12
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm with you on this one, Mad Onion. I was just watching a recorded game from
Mr. Fixit's site the other day and saw something that totally baffled me: a
half-dozen or so pikemen leveled four houses in a matter of seconds. Sure, they
were Gothic pikemen with an extra +1 vs buildings and the houses didn't have
masonry or architecture, but that seemed far too fast to me. I think that houses
must somehow work different than other buildings, or possibly some units have
bonuses against only houses. Has anyone else noticed pikemen tearing down houses
like crazy?
Vaidency

------------------
"Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't."



Vaidency
Forum Member posted 04-05-00 09:15 PM EDT (US)    12 / 12
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ok, I might start a new thread about this to make sure people notice it, but
here's the game I was talking about.
http://MrFixitOnline.com/readPosting.asp?PostingId=30626
It happens to be an excellent game anyway, so it's well worth watching, but of
particular interest is something that happens about an hour into it. The Goth
player (white) lands on the Southern shore of the southern island and lays down
a bunch of barracks at about 48 minutes.

The first wave consists entirely of champions and are sent after the Viking
(red) base (watch how quickly they take out that castle, +1 damage really adds
up.) However, the really weird thing I'm posting about happens a bit later.

Look around the Japanese (teal) base and you'll find a block of nine houses near
the lower-right hand side of it (the Goth player builds several barracks near
them.) Watch as, at about 1:02 into the game, a small group of pikemen levels
all of those houses in a matter of seconds. Undocumented bonus?

They only seem to destroy houses that fast, not other buildings. I've watched
the recording twice now and it's clear that those pikemen are dealing massive
damage to the houses, but when they also attack the nearby blacksmith they do
very little. Comments?

Vaidency



Red Phoenix

red_phoenix_1@hotmail.com

"Never raise your hand to your kids.  It leaves your groin unprotected."

RCT Station - http://rct.ogresnet.com

If you have RollerCoaster Tycoon and haven't been here, you are missing out.
Come for forums, polls, and plenty of downloads.




Outposts, who uses them?

[ Next Page  ]
[ 1 2  ]

Jackson
Forum Member posted 04-05-00 06:43 AM EDT (US)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I play AoK quite frequently, and I never build outposts. Does anyone build them
or do they just build towers? It seems to me that a radar house has a useful
purpose. (Population) And although it doesn't have as great a LOS as outposts,
they're cheaper. Anyone have any thoughts on this one?
------------------
"Let us cross over the river and rest under the shade of the trees" -Stonewall
Jackson

Author Replies:

legion
Forum Member posted 04-05-00 06:45 AM EDT (US)    1 / 23
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I use radar Town Centers... they are better then houses.
in team islands I use outposts..... and if they get destroyed I replace them
with TC's.


Ronin
Forum Member posted 04-05-00 06:50 AM EDT (US)    2 / 23
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I do.
And I cannot help wondering why my opponents ignore them. Because they don't
shoot? The fact is, my outposts usually remain standing during the whole game.

LateRoger
posted 04-05-00 06:52 AM EDT (US)    3 / 23
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi,
In DM, you can't buy spies (in castle).

At end of the game, it can be usefull to know where
the ennemy is.

LateRoger


RebelQuelled
Forum Member posted 04-05-00 07:00 AM EDT (US)    4 / 23
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I find outposts very useful for FLUSH.
The first priority in Flush is to deny enemy of gold so the he can't build rams
and knoghts to defend.

Outposts are much easier than paliside walls or house in denying them of gold.
Put one in any gold sites you see. If you detect the enemy biuilding towncenter
or mining camp, quiickly deploy the tower.

I can't think of another use of it right now...
But I will come up with some more later.


Missi Dominici
Forum Member posted 04-05-00 07:30 AM EDT (US)    5 / 23
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I find them especially useful in watching for a feudal or early castle rush from
the enemy on an island map. Since you have a fairly large island it is difficult
to constnatly scout the whole thing. So around feudal I send a villager to the
end that I'm not using and place 8 outposts on the shoreline to see if he's
rushing.

McGowan
posted 04-05-00 09:51 AM EDT (US)    6 / 23
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One little piece of info that i don't think 90% of the zone realize. Outpost
suck in dark. There LOS suck and aren't worth there cost at all. However, most
ppl don't realize that that out post get a LOS bonus every age! This +2 (or
perhaps +3) bonus per age, in conjunction with the other los upgrades at the tc,
give outpost an OUTSTANDING LOS by castle age. You can place an outpost in the
middle of a conti map and see EVERYTHING going on in the middle of the map. The
LOS is so large, you can often observe the enemy during even the Imperial age
witout your enemy knowing it. Turst me, they are highly underated. You don't
want them all overthe ****ed map mind you, but 3 or 4 well placed outpost can be
one of the best investments you make during a game

Eumaies
Forum Member posted 04-05-00 10:34 AM EDT (US)    7 / 23
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I use them.


Kakarotto8614
Forum Member posted 04-05-00 10:36 AM EDT (US)    8 / 23
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If I want to surround an enemy, I build outposts around his base to see if he
leaves, or if I can see his town.
Other than that, I don't use them.

(By the way Jackson, your signature is someones last words isn't it? )


Kyaia
Forum Member posted 04-05-00 11:28 AM EDT (US)    9 / 23
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Personally I rarely use outposts. But once I played agains a 100% newbie in a
"intermediates only" room.
He used outposts a lot, he placed 6 (yes you read right, SIX) outposts at each
shallow to his island.
But I think outposts can be quite good sometimes, if you are playing a briton,
persian or teuton player, you can build one outpost at each shallow to your
island to prevent a TC push.

------------------
Kyaia was here
ICQ: 66576504


Parcells
Forum Member posted 04-05-00 11:40 AM EDT (US)    10 / 23
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I use them.
Primarily for the reasons others have observed...Easy way to find out what your
enemy is doing.


Parcells
Forum Member posted 04-05-00 12:09 PM EDT (US)    11 / 23
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
mistake posts
[This message has been edited by Parcells (edited 04-05-2000).]


Fatty_Pigstick
Forum Member posted 04-05-00 12:17 PM EDT (US)    12 / 23
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I've found them invaluable in team island games, or just if I'm wary of a
potential landing spot in any water map. The LOS is pretty **** good in feudal,
let alone alone, after you click town watch. It's fun to watch 3 vills land in
early castle and follow them wherever they go

SHS_Rubblarp
Forum Member posted 04-05-00 01:24 PM EDT (US)    13 / 23
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
barely anyone. I dont.

HT Leader
Forum Member posted 04-05-00 01:34 PM EDT (US)    14 / 23
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they tend to be VERY scard or them...
they end up sending there whole army against it to remove it....

it is a good way to see the enemy size.....

of course... then there are those players who think there great....

they will just bring small army by it beliving it cant see them.... trying to
trick you....and well..... get slaugtered because you saw there sneak attack
comming


James Thomas
Forum Member posted 04-05-00 04:50 PM EDT (US)    15 / 23
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I use outposts to guide my way in to a base without the enemy seeing 'cause I
see them first. I then destroy them to remove the evedence. I then build a
castle, town center, siege workshop etc. in a secluded area. The I attack and
kick butt. They didn't see that one coming, 'cause I saw them first. Heh.
Outposts have saved my butt hundreds of times.
Ok?
------------------
You can tell a person's sense of humour from their Age 2oons. Oh dear...Jurt 007


SK_Requiem
Forum Member posted 04-05-00 04:56 PM EDT (US)    16 / 23
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I didn't used to build them but I am starting to more and more because of
intelligence gathering ability. I am scared of them especially in early game
when I am scouting my opponents base in Dark.
------------------
Water runs deep, but the blood of a clansman runs deeper.


HoA Leader
Forum Member posted 04-05-00 05:59 PM EDT (US)    17 / 23
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i do.

LordPhoebus
Forum Member posted 04-05-00 06:24 PM EDT (US)    18 / 23
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I use them in team islands. Once I had an ally that told me to post them on my
half. I have been using them ever since in team islands. I use 10 Cav archers to
cover the island when builders pop up. I did that one game against a really good
boomer. I stopped 3 castle attempts before they ever happened. Then I castled
over his gold and transported my cav archers to his island. He hadn't built any
troops yet even though he had high score.
I like the late game advantages as well. As others have noted opponents rarely
waste their time on them. I played a team island against a good Briton. Yah,
thats right, a good Briton on team islands. His naval attack was mainly
transports. He made me so play defensively that he kept my Jap navy in check
somewhat. Anyhow, they won the game for me. I could see his every move. He
beached with massed Cavaliers and ELbows. I had a hard time at first, but the
LOS gave me the advantage. I needed a quick strike so we had Cavalier duels. I
followed that up with a pike charge, but they would still get eaten up because
the ELlbows were untouched. That is where the towers came in. I was able to add
a third wave to the attack. Scouts flanked his position and took out the Elbows
from behind.


I
Forum Member posted 04-05-00 06:50 PM EDT (US)    19 / 23
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I use them to watch my opponent's town, and to keep a look out for approaching
enemy. also i keep building new ones if old ones get destroyed. not necessarily
in the same place though..
what ever unit or combo he sends me i send a counter combo to his. eventually, i
have way more resource left.

Silent Celtic
Forum Member posted 04-05-00 07:25 PM EDT (US)    20 / 23
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't have stones to spare until late in Castle... and by then I pretty much
don't need outposts since all my buildings and its LOS cover my side of the
map... It would be nice if outposts don't cost any stone, but then again, we
would see outposts everywhere if it only costs wood... that would be annoying as
well.
------------------
Zone name : Silent_Celtic

the harder they come, the harder they must fall.



Dethurga
Forum Member posted 04-05-00 07:54 PM EDT (US)    21 / 23
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Watch towers are no less than a boon to the paranoid. Usually, the paranoia is
unfounded and a minor waste of resources, but on those few occasions, they pay
off. Easily, valuable for defense.

Hero_Tuvok1
Forum Member posted 04-05-00 08:46 PM EDT (US)    22 / 23
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I only use them on certain maps.
I use them on Gold rush so I place outpost around all the gold to see if the
enemy starts mining it.. then I send whatever I have to kill them.
I also use them on Team island when send a group of 10 vils to inhabit another
island A build a town centre then sround the edge of the island i build outpost
to stop the enemy from bulding castles right beside my base.
Now I know most of you are asking


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Hero,why don't you build towers instead of Outpost"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

there are many reasons,towers cost 125 stone and 25 wood when outpost only cost
25 wood and 25 stone.Now your saying:


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
True, But outpost have only 500 Hp and towers have 1020. Also towers defend your
base,but outpost don't.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well when I hit feudle I send 95% of my villagers on food wood and gold(only
when I start to castle I send 7-8 villager stone mining)therefore if I want to
castle in under 18:00 minutes I have to focus on food and wood,also build up a
little feudle army to defend. My point is that I can't take waste my time making
villager to mine stone so I have enough stone to build my towers and then when i
hit castle build a castle.

But after I hit castle I start replacing My outpost with towers since I know
that I attack could happen any time!

And that is why I use Outpost!

Hero_Tuvok1

And that is why I use outpost!

------------------
"You ask,what is our aim? I can answer with one word: Victory."
-General James Solomon


Isita
Forum Member posted 04-05-00 09:53 PM EDT (US)    23 / 23
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, I hate outposts, but when my enemy builts them, I love outposts, because I
have a friend that always built like 6 outposts, so I feudal rush him , and he
can't put a tower! It's cool, also I think that in castle, a tc is a better bet!
and if you want to scout the enemy base, use your scout! If he founds an
outpost, he will know that you have villagers nearby
------------------
I will soon be knowed as tonto_isita, so be prepared!




Red Phoenix

red_phoenix_1@hotmail.com

"Never raise your hand to your kids.  It leaves your groin unprotected."

RCT Station - http://rct.ogresnet.com

If you have RollerCoaster Tycoon and haven't been here, you are missing out.
Come for forums, polls, and plenty of downloads.



Demolition Ships are Awesome!!

Missi Dominici
Forum Member posted 04-05-00 09:34 PM EDT (US)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When playing on the Zone I find it amazing that when I play as the Viking most
enemies build a massive horde of fireships. So instead of building my suspected
LBs I make a couple dozen Heave Demo Ships. So when he comes to attack my dock I
ungarrison the Demo Ships and SURPRISE!!! you're a dead meat.
I have found another way to use Demo Ships. Again, when I play as the Vikings I
found that the enemy will build archers to use as land protection from my LBs,
they especially like Elbows. All that I do is back my LBs off the shoreline a
bit so that the archers have to come right onto the shoreline to attack my
ships. Then KABOOM!! I crash 1 magnificent Demo Ship into them and about a dozen
of them fall over at once.

Mainly Demo ships are good to use on any map that has your enemy seperated by a
body water, or well known naval attackers. A surprise attack on the enemy dock,
where he will most likely have all his ships stacked together, is absolutely
devastating.

Does anyone else enjoy using Demo Ships as much as I do?

Author Replies:

VuP_DeathDogz
Forum Member posted 04-05-00 09:37 PM EDT (US)    1 / 6
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funny on highland or conti, group of archers corsoosin to u...2 demo ships come
up......all archers die....

The Hyper Duck
Forum Member posted 04-05-00 09:38 PM EDT (US)    2 / 6
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hehe...
Ask DSC! We all know you have nothing against him...


Vaidency
Forum Member posted 04-05-00 09:49 PM EDT (US)    3 / 6
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Occasionally, I'll build a couple in the early Castle Age and go bust some
fishing ships. Seven fishing ships clustered around one marlin tile can all be
sent to the bottom (75 wood and up to 15 food apiece) with one demolition ship.
That's hard to resist.
If your opponent has lots of fishing ships on few fish tiles this can be a more
appealing tactic than using fire ships. Your opponent can run his fishing ships
away from fire ships or counter with his own, but there's just no saving a big
group of fishing ships from one of those one-hit-killers.

Vaidency

------------------
"Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't."



soup or man
Forum Member posted 04-05-00 09:54 PM EDT (US)    4 / 6
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
if im playing a Highland game, i'll build a few and when i see the enemy come
running across the little land bridge i'll send a demo ship at him and take out
a cluster of troops. i used to have 6 or 7 of them patroll the bridge but the
opponent usually just shoots them down with archers from the shore.

Isita
Forum Member posted 04-05-00 10:01 PM EDT (US)    5 / 6
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I love demo ships, I send them against groups of ships, and BOOOM; but when your
enemy have demo ships on aggresive stance, just send fishing ships, and they
will blow them, could trade, demoship=fishing ship!!! Try it, it really works!
------------------
I will soon be knowed as tonto_isita, so be prepared!


Bayetz
Forum Member posted 04-05-00 10:16 PM EDT (US)    6 / 6
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, I have to say that I don't use them too much.
But, I do remember a few games where I had a lot of fun with them.

Specially playing rivers or highlands. You just have to wall properly the
shallows and wait for the ennemy to mass troops there trying to penetrate your
zone. Just bring the DemoShips into any concentration of ennemies. Good work and
a lot of fun. And if they try to use trannies, if you are lucky, you can use
DemoShips to sink them. That's also a lot of fun, specially when those
transports hold 10 pals, 5 monks and 5 trebs. (Never happened yet, but every man
has his dreams, right??


------------------
 la guerre comme  la guerre





Red Phoenix

red_phoenix_1@hotmail.com

"Never raise your hand to your kids.  It leaves your groin unprotected."

RCT Station - http://rct.ogresnet.com

If you have RollerCoaster Tycoon and haven't been here, you are missing out.
Come for forums, polls, and plenty of downloads.



:
Chris' Civ Guides : The Goths (very long and complete).

[ Next Page  ]
[ 1 2 3 4  ]

chris_the_great
HGS Cherub posted 03-17-00 02:29 PM EDT (US)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm sick of waiting for Washizu and co to post this in the University, so I've
put it here for now.
Please note it is my first guide and may have some imperfections. It was written
a month ago approx.
Please tell me what you think and add your comments.
E-mail : christophe@prime.net.sa
Thanks !
Christophe
"Chris the Great"

------------------------------------------------------------


Chris' Civ guides : the Goths.

Goths.good in their time, unappreciated in AoK.
Yes, the Goths aren't played as much as other civs. Why ? Some people say
they're unbalanced. Some say they aren't good. Others say they're great.
So, you're asking me. Who is to believe ? Are the Goths good ? Average ? Best ?
Well, that is what I'm going to elaborate in this civ guide, the first in a long
series.

So, who are the Goths ?

The Goths originated from the Island of Gotland in the Baltic, and then split
into two distinct tribes as they moved south across Central Europe. The
Visigoths ("West Goths") settled in the Romania region. The Ostrogoths ("East
Goths") settled farther east on the north west coast of the Baltic. The
Visigoths were driven away by the Hunish inavaders, and escaped south across the
Danube River. Their numbers were estimated at over 60 000, quite a large
population. They defeated a Constantinople army, and settled south of the Danube
before pushing into Italy and sacking Rome, then moving into Gaul, modern
France. They were given a part of Gaul, and from then on they extended their
domination to Spain and Portugal.
The Ostrogoths broke away from the Huns, and followed into Italy, eventually
completing it's conquest in 493. However, their kingdom did not last long after
the death of their greatest leader, Theodoric. The Byzantines pushed in, under
the lead of Belisarius, hoping to regain what was the old Roman Empire. The
Ostrogoths were finally defeated in Italy, in 552.
The Visigoths rule lasted longer, and in the late fifth century, Clovis, first
christian Frank Emperor, drove them out of modern France, over the Pyrenees.
When Clovis died, France split up and the Visigoths were left alone, untill
Islamic armies from North Africa destroyed the last Gothic kingdom.

In Age of Kings, who are the Goths ?

In Age of Kings, the Goths are a different matter.
The main reason they aren't often chosen is very simple, but not a very
plausible one. The Goths indeed lack Walls, compromoting their defensive
capabilities. They also lack an economic bonus, apart from the bonus against
boars.
But let's stop talking about all the negative sides. Behind these, is a well
polished and usefull civ.

Goths Stats

Unique Unit : Huskarl
Team Bonus : Barrack 20% faster
Infantry -10% Feudal Age, -15% Castle Age, -25% Imperial Age.
Villagers +5 attack against boar.
Infantry +1 attack against buildings
+10 population Imperial Age.

And all of these bonuses.how can they be used ?

Some of the bonuses the Goths bear seem rather useless to the less experienced
players. But the more experienced ones have likely experienced with this civ and
got the grasp of them.


&#61623; Unique Unit

The Goth Unique Unit, the Huskarl, is an infantry unit with an extremely high
pierce armor. Before Elite upgrade, they bear 6 pierce armor, and possibly 8
with the armor upgrades. Unfortunately, the Goths don't have the last armour
upgrade, which takes the edge of their cheap infantry. As for attack, the
Huskarl has the standard 8 (12 Elite) of Infantry Unique Units, upgradable to a
whopping 12 (16 Elite). Overall, this unit is extremelly powerfull versus
archers, but can be killed by standard swordsmen.

&#61623; Team Bonus

Well, what can I say ? 20% faster barracks is a lot ! Extremely usefull it is,
to have fast barracks. It means you can basically have a larger army in less
time than the opposition. For example, in the time I takes him to create 10
Infantry Units, you will have produced twenty percent more, 12. And two extra
units can really turn the tide of a battle to your favour. Or even if it
doesn't, an army of twelve like that can take on 10 with one armor upgrade an
possibly survive. If the the situation is handled correctly, that is.

&#61623; Infantry Price

Probably the main economic bonus the Goths have. With a much cheaper infantry,
the Goths can outnumber their foes greatly, and at a cheaper price. In Imperial
Age, the Goths have only 15 gold and 45 food to pay for a champion, compared to
30 gold and 60 food for other civs. That's a considerable difference, and
combined with the infantry creation speeds, makes the Goths on of the best
infantry civs.

&#61623; Infantry Attack bonus

Yes, Gothic infantry also get an attack bonus against buildings. +1 to be exact.
Now, +1 attack bonues may seem very weak, but rest assured, it isn't. A
"standard" champion bears a total of 13 attack without upgrades. Thus, an army
of 10 cause 130 attack with each blow. A Gothic champion army of this magnitude
will cause 140 attack to buildings with each blow. On a larger scale, this bonus
is much more stunning. Take a huge Infantry Army, of 50 champions. Multiply 140
by 50, and you get 700 attack total. And that is without attack upgrades. With,
a Gothic Champion has a total of 17 attack. Now, an army of 50 champions.cause
850 damage.
All this maths, were is the point you may ask ? Well, creating 50 champions
"only" costs 750 gold and 2250 food. All of these resources are very little on
the large scale. And for quite a low price, a Gothic Infantry army can easily
take down most buildings with little or no loses. As for units, that isn't a
problem, as no unit can attack fast enough and with enough strengh to kill a
single champion without falling before.

&#61623; Boar Hunting Bonus

I've seen many people disregard this bonus, as in the beginning it may seem
quite useless. But fear not, that is not the case. Although the bonus may not be
as usefull as the Vikings' or the Franks', it is still usefull in the early
stages of th game. +5 attack is not a little thing. Normally, it would take at
least 6 villagers to kill a boar, and nil casualties is not certain. With the
Goths, it barely take 3 villagers to do the grissly job, and they can easily
come out unscathed. Now, you may say, what is the use of killing a wild boar
with fewer villagers ? Well, the answer is pretty clear. If you can kill a boar
with three villagers, you can kill two with six. In other words, you'll get a
larger food income than other civs when you find boar. As boars usually tavel in
packs of two, you will usually always find two boars by your base, for a total
of 680 food in half the time it would take other civs. Usually, with Goths, I
build my first mill, not by berries, deer, or shore fish, but by boar.

&#61623; The population bonus

This bonus is very usefull in low pop games, but in high ones it is ridiculous,
as it doesn't give the Goths a particular edge. In a 75 pop game, having ten
extra villies or units can turn the tide of a battle in your favor. When the pop
gets higher, ten units more is ridiculous when compared to the sheer size,
strength and numbers of some units.
So if you intend to use this bonus on a high pop game, think again. If the pop
is low, then a minimum of success is to be expected.

So, we've overviewed each of these bonuses. But.where is the Goths strong point
?

By the nature of all of these bonuses, I think it is fairly obvious to discern
that the Goths really shine in matter of Infantry. Combine a creation speed
bonus, a price bonus, and an attack bonus, and you get a killer force.
Unfortunately, this is the only bonus the Goths really have to distinguish them
from other civs. Their navy is average, as good as all the others with no bonus,
their cav is good too, and they only lack one archery unit. In matter of siege,
they're okay, only missing the Siege Onager and Siege Ram, and of course, Siege
Engineers. And as everyone knows.they don't have any walls or towers.

Help ! No walls or towers ! What am I going to do ?!

Don't panic !
The lack of walls and towers is indeed something serious, and apparently the
main reason people don't choose them. But, as we all know, "turtling" isn't
always succesful. But although walls aren't always a solution, they are
sometimes the only way of defence and can put you at a serious disadvantage on
some maps, such as Baltic, Mediteraneen, Black forest, and sometimes
continental, because they don't have a chance to block off "choke points". This
is where we use what we call, the "Wall of flesh". As it's name suggests, the
point of this is to use your units to form a "wall". Basically, it involves
using your units to defend from invading enemies rather than walls. On
occasions, this is very usefull, such as when you need to move your defence to
attack a treb, or other.

We've gone over the civ bonuses now. But what about technologies ?

All all civs, the Goths lack some technologies and have some that few civs have.
Unfortunately, the former is dominant, and the Goths don't have some important
techs.
To give you an idea, here is a list of all the techs they don't have :
- Gate
- Stone Wall
- Fortified Wall
- Keep
- Bombard Tower
- Hoardings
- Gold Shaft Mine
- Paladin
- Camel
- Heavy Camel
- Arbalest
- Plate Mail Armor
- Block Printing
- Redemption
- Atonement
- Siege Ram
- Siege Onager
- Siege Engineers
- Elite Cannon Galleon
- Dry Dock

Now, if I felt like it or had the time I'd go over each of these, but I doubt
much people would want to wade through twenty or more pages of useless
explaining of things you probably already knew.
I will though point out the techs that will put you at disadvantage.
If you quickly read through these, you'll see the Goths don't miss much, apart
from, of course, defensive buildings. Not many civs get Paladins, and only six
get camels, so the Goths don't lack much in the matter of cavalry. As for
archers, not many civs either get the Arbalest (seven), so their archers can be
just as good as any others. The siege is okay, only lacking the Siege Onager and
Siege Ram, but unfortunately also Siege Engineers. And that +15 attack the
villies have against buildings is usefull sometimes.specially on forward bases.
In matter of monks, they also are put to challenge with the lack of the three
most important upgrades, the one that boosts conversion range to +3, the one
that lets you convert enemy monks and the one that lets you convert enemy siege
units. But monks are mostly used for healing, and on that side they are okay. If
you really insist on monks, get a Teuton ally.
The navy is the same as other civs, with no bonuses but no bad misses either.
As far as economy, they only miss Gold Shaft Mining, and surprisingly are a very
good civ for economy late in the game.
To sum it all up :
Defence : bad (-)
Infantry : very good (+)
Cavalry : okay (neutral)
Archers : okay (neutral)
Siege : okay (neutral)
Monks : bad (-)
Navy : okay (neutral)
Economy : very good (+)
Add together all of the plus' and the minus', and you get (+) + (+) +(-) + (-) =
0 (neutral).
So overall, the Goths are an okay technology civ. I will use this type of rating
in all my guides from now on.

Finally ! We've finshed going over the Goths themselves ! What next ?

Well, we've gone over the Goths as a civ so far. Bonuses, etc, all have been
discussed in detail. But read again, and you'll see that there aren't any
strategies. That's what we are going to discuss now. Goth specific strats.

Before moving onto Strats, let's examin the different aspects of the civ that
can help strategies.

By now, you've probably noticed, or guessed, that the Goths strength relies on
their infantry. They have an attack bonus, and are cheaper.
Logically, cheaper infantry would mean less gathering of resources, less time
spent on buildup. Yes, you've noticed "less time". And less time means more
speed. Yes, that's the key word. Rush. The Goths have cheap infantry, with an
attack bonus. So you can build units faster than the opposition earlier in the
game. Unfortunately, you must use this opportunity right away, as later on the
bonus is harder to exploit in rushes.
Next, the +10 pop limit. Now, this can either mean more villagers, or more
units. The choice is hard to make, but can change everything.

Rush ? What the hell it "Rush" ?

You've probalby heard the term before, you probably know what it means. Most
people do, but then again, some don't. So, I'll say what it is, to make sure
people reading this don't get lost later on in discussions on the rush.
Rushing is, as the name might suggest, something that is done early on, and
quickly. It's actually a fast attack, with military units, and has for objective
not to destroy the enemy (the Town Centers make it impossible sometimes), but to
seriously affect his economy. If you can kill ten villagers, he will be 500 food
behind, and you will even be able to make his progression to Feudal of Castle
Age impossible without more villagers. Who says villagers says food, say
production time, says.loss of time. And in AoK, losing 5-10 minutes can
sometimes be crucial as to the outcome of a game. With 10 less villagers, the
enemy will have at the time 33% less resources than you - this is assuming he
has thirty villagers, and of course if your rush succeeds. Some rushes are more
effective, where the enemy pannics and looses control of his villages, thus also
his economy, and simply forgets to garrisson the Town Center. Other times, the
opponent may detect the attack by the means of an outpost or scouting, and
sometimes there are also tell-tale signs - such as very rapid progression
through the ages, and military buildup right from the Dark Age.

First Goths strategy : The Infantry Rush

So now, we've discussed that the Infantry is to be used earlier on, and
participate in an effective Rush. Of course, saying this is much easier than it
is to put to effect, and requires much skill and practice before it becomes a
natural and helpful task.
Your first objectve, as with all civs, is to rapidly get 500 food to go to
Feudal Age, with approximately 30 villagers. As usual, go for sheep. But scout
around your base first, before going for berries. Look for boars. If you find
them, build a mill by them and immediately get loom, and then send three
villagers on the first boar, and three on the other. This will get you 680 food
fairly rapidly. Instead of building a dock, lumber camp, or mining camp, build a
barracks as the second building to advance to Feudal. When you "hit the Feudal
button", immediately start pumping out infantry. You'll have 150 gold, and it'll
only cost you 135 gold and 270 food to get a small army of 5 militia. Of course,
this won't get you very far. You should by now have an excess food supply of
around 400-800, and all this should be used to finance the rush. Build five more
villagers (250 food), and set them all on gold, with the initial ones on food
and five on wood. This will soon get you a steady supply of resources, enough to
have the barracks constantly at work. If you are ever halted by house problems,
upgrade to Men at Arms (100 food, 40 gold), instead of waiting for the house to
be completed. When you have around 10 Men at Arms, send them all to the enemy
base, that your scout will of located, with two to four villagers. Just out of
reach, but not too far from the enemy, build a barracks or two, and pump out
infantry, using the initial ten to defend. When you have 15-20, attack. Remember
: your main objective is economy, so instead of going for the Town Center, go
for villagers. When the Town Center becomes too crowed and dangerous, attack the
houses and other building that will slow down the enemy progression - if he's
still Dark or Feudal, destroy his buildings that will help him advance. But as a
rule of thumb, go for houses to disrup his production.
On rare occasions, you may be able to totally destroy the enemy's town. If this
is the case, and you have an opportunity, take it. If not, don't try, as a
failed Rush is a Rush turned against you, and is lethal.
Oh, I forgot to add that it might help to get the attack upgrades and armor
upgrades at the blacksmith's before launching your attack.

That's nice. But what happens if you're on the receiving end of this attack ?

As you know, you won't be the only one dishing out pain during a game. Other
people may well of read this or another guide, and know just as much as you do.
Like all strategies, there is a way to make them backfire and turn against the
enemy. And there's always a way to cock that up and speed up your doom. Either
way, you're going to need to counter this.
Let's first analyse the situation. You're either in Dark or Feudal Age. In these
Ages, you'll have a Town Center, possibly one or two military buildings. And
maybe a Tower, and walls. You'll have some gold, stone, wood, and food, though
not in huge quantities. Here, I'll only analyse a way to counter the Goth
Infantry Rush rather than a general one.
As in all games, the best way to victory is prevision, or to be able to tell
what the enemy is going to do. To do so, you'll have to have an idea of where
his base is, and be able to regularily check up on him. Personally, I "park" my
scout next to his base, out of his sight, as soon as I've got as many sheep as I
need (often around 12 or more). This way, I just need to run in once, take a
look, and pop back out again. There will be tell-tale signs of what the enemy is
going to do, and in the case of a Gothic Infantry Rush, they can be hard to
find. Basically, they are an early military buildup, early gold-mining
operation, more than one barracks, and a blacksmith's. These things can help to
tell what the opponent is planning on doing, for obvious reasons. When you've
discerned these signs, the first thing to do is to counter it. Build counter
units for the units, in this case, Infantry. In the early ages, only one
possibility is opened to you : archers. Unfortunately, they are quite expensive.
Build as many as you can, and leave them ungarrissoned. Meanwhile, build a Tower
within firing range of the Town Center (you don't have murder holes yet), and if
you can spare the resource, block off choke points with walls, using as many
villagers as you can to get the job done faster. By now, you'll have a good
enough defence to get out of this with very minimal loses.
Unfortunately, not often do people get warning signs of a rush, and are caught
by surprise. In this case, there is only one thing to do, and that is to run,
and hide. But before carelesly garrissoning all the villagers, try to get a
villager to escape, and make sure you have enough wood to build another Town
Center and a Barracks in the case you get your initial based razed. When the
Infantry gets within firing range, select the targets manually, and first target
the units that are closest to the Town Center. Sometimes, your Town Center will
get destroyed. In this case, instead of foolishly sending all the villagers to
the same spot and to the other "emergency builder", send them all in different
directions, with a larger group going to the way you really want to go. This
will not save all villagers, but will much more than if you run them off to the
same place.

My thoughts on the Goths Infantry Rush : I've used this technique more than
once, and on most occasions have been more or less succesful. But the few times
the Rush backfired, I was in major trouble and instantly lost the game. So
before pulling of this technique on the Zone, practice it first against the
computer.

The Additional Ten Population Limit and it's uses.

So, how can these ten extra units come in handy ? Logically, they'd be usefull
to fight against the strong disadvantages the Goths have. And in this case, it
is of course Defence. Now, these are only my opinions, and I find them to be
correct most of the time.
Firstly, these ten units can be either Military units, or villagers.
In the case of military units, it would seem logical to make Infantry.
Unfortunately, ten extra infantry units don't change the tide of a battle much.
And besides, they do nothing for defense. My opinion is to invest in Archers, to
garrison permanently in TCs, Towers, or Castles. This gives you a reliable and
permanent defence. And remember, you'll always be ten units ahead later on, so
having idle units isn't going to hurt.
the next option is to build villagers. What do ten extra villagers do ? Later in
a game, ten extra villagers isn't much, as very often income is excelent,
sometimes excessive, and often one type or resrouce runs out and you end up with
lots of idle and useless villagers. So we've established one point, that is that
they would be usless for resource gathering. But then again.they'd be quite good
for forward builders, wouldn't they ? Really, this is the only area I have found
a point for extra villagers.
So really, I'd advise you to go for Military Units, Archers, to fill up the ten
extra population limit.

------------------------------------------------------------


This guide comes to an end, as it eventually would.
It has taken me a few hours to get together, and I hope you enjoy reading it,
and most importantly, learn something from it.
This is my very first complete strategy guide, and also the first in a long
series of others.
As for now, I'm currently working on another guide. After that one, I'll do a
civ guide for the Mongols, or Saracens. You will find these on either of the two
places I send this to, which are EwanFranz' AoK Mag (ewanfranz@supanet.com) or
Dimitrios' Site (www.angelfire.com/ms/ageofkings).
Please, do not use this guide on your sites or other without first contacting
me. I'll most likely say yes, but I want appropriate credit to be given, and to
know where and for what purpose this guide is being used.
If you do use this guide on your site, after asking for permission, please leave
this signature at the bottom, and do not edit the guide in any way.
If you have comments on the guide, or any other things, you can contact me at
the following e-mail address, christophe@prime.net.sa
My ICQ number is 58962100
Oh, I am not called "Chris the Great" on the zone, but "Arctic Coyote". Either
way, I don't play Zone games anyway.
As for now, thank you, and I hope you found this usefull in a way.

Christophe Gouardo (aka "Chris the Great").

Author Replies:

Leif_the_Lucky
Forum Member posted 03-17-00 03:41 PM EDT (US)    1 / 76
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Wow! You spent a LOT of time on that. I'm very impressed. You really know what
you are talking about.
------------------
What do you get when you cross a pit-bull and a collie?

A dog that runs for help after it bites your leg off.



Mieszko I
Forum Member posted 03-17-00 04:16 PM EDT (US)    2 / 76
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WoW! I realy havent expected something like that from you(N/O). Maybe I will
read it someday... It looks good....
------------------
So says the Great Ruler








chris_the_great
HGS Cherub posted 03-17-00 05:10 PM EDT (US)    3 / 76
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am greatly offended !
Just kidding
I read more or less everything on the Strat Forum but don't post many comments.
I try to make everything here good material and not cr*p like some people who
just post...ya know...

Put it this way, there are two me's :
The humoury me and the serious me.
I know which one to act out when, how and why. I don't carry on the wrong
personality everywhere.
Hehe.
Do read it anyway !

What does (N/O) mean ?

Leif, I spent approx, two weeks working on it. Took around 7 hours in total. But
the Mongol guide, the best yet, is over 15 word pages long so far (no where near
completion !) and has taken me well over 12 hours. A lot of time.
I enjoy it anyway.

Christophe
"Chris the Great"


kiel76
Forum Member posted 03-17-00 05:12 PM EDT (US)    4 / 76
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Very well done, as mention before. I love to play goths, especially in low pop
games.
Just a comment. What I do is try to get to castle as quicly as possible and
start the rush with a few knights. This has gotten people thinking spearmen, to
counter the knights. While you're messing around with his villagers, build up a
small army of longswords men, and send them in. I've had it many times when all
he had was spearmen, and longswords eat spearmen up. While keeping the pressure
up with longswords, I send in some rams and scropions. The scorps. Expensive, I
know, but effective. By the time you send the in scorps, and if the enemy is
still alive, you have to protect them with some pikes from enemy knights. I
think the key with the Goths is constant pressure. The entire time you're
attacking keep building up the infantry at a comman gathering point and send
them in in waves along with a ram and a few scorps.

"In Imperial Age, the Goths have only 15 gold and 45 food to pay for a champion,
compared to 30 gold and 60 food for other civs."
Just a picky thing, isn't the correct cost 20G.


chris_the_great
HGS Cherub posted 03-17-00 05:24 PM EDT (US)    5 / 76
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kiel76,
Yes I did get the price wrong, I don't know why but thanks for pointing it out.
I'lll edit it later.
The actual real price is 22.5 gold but I guess ES narrowed it down a little, to
20.

Other than that, I'm glad to see you're adding in your personal strats as
they're what makes a thread lively and interesting.

Keep it up guys !

Christophe
"Chris the Great"



dismal_science
Forum Member posted 03-17-00 05:41 PM EDT (US)    6 / 76
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I agree with most, but think the following points aren't made strongly enough:
- The goths are a weak early economic civ. Most other civs (at least the ones
people use) will get a jump on them so taking the offensive is not always that
easy
- Since the goths must have the offensive, this is a big problem for them

Also, a few nitpicks:
- Strong late economy due to upgrades...who cares? I'd trade those any of those
final economic upgrades for 50f at the start.
- Using two groups of three to hunt boars is much less efficient than one group
of six (or even better nine) due to meat spoilage and the need for additional
trips back and forth. A group of nine can clean a boar in one trip. A group of 3
will take three trips per boar.

[This message has been edited by dismal_science (edited 03-17-2000).]


TSA_Paladin
Forum Member posted 03-17-00 09:13 PM EDT (US)    7 / 76
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This is fantastic... Id like to read more of these for differnt civs.
(the real point of my reply was to get this back to the top =) )


Mieszko I
Forum Member posted 03-17-00 09:17 PM EDT (US)    8 / 76
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
N/O means "No Offense", or "it was not meant to offend anyone".
------------------
So says the Great Ruler








The Hyper Duck
Forum Member posted 03-17-00 09:39 PM EDT (US)    9 / 76
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the best threads on the Goths that I've seen yet.
There aren't a lot of people who would take that much time to make a post like
this, and STILL use proper grammar and have a lot of good stuff in it.
Can't wait to see the ones on the Mongols and Saracens...Two of my favourite
civs .

Keep it up, Chris.


------------------
"I've had a wonderful evening, but this wasn't it."
Groucho Marx

ICQ NUMBER: 58768022



SHS_Rubblarp
Forum Member posted 03-18-00 04:24 AM EDT (US)    10 / 76
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As we`ve all seen people are flooding out these civ guides these days.. I
consider it gr8 that some1 is taking their time and Im sure that many rookies
will achieve loads of helpful things from them... But there are at least 3
things in this guide that is COMPLETE rubbish.
1. To build a mill by the boars... Dont you know how to "lure" a boar... you
attack with one villager then run back to TC were all the villagers kills it...
why waste wood on a mill near boars.. insane :P. The bonus you describe can be
used in 1 way effectivly... it is if you go and hunt your opponents boars... but
that is quite risky.

2. Infantry feudal attack... Well come to the rated world of the zone and try
that out... if you do that in 10 games I bet you`ll lose them all. The only
feudal attack that is good is the archer rushes. Infantry arent fast enough to
kill the villagers... and they will often by accident run into the TC fire and
die...

3. Then theire + and - thing were you give them + in economy is well...
ridicilous. The late economical techs are not important at all...


Cheerful Chum
HGS Cherub posted 03-18-00 04:42 AM EDT (US)    11 / 76
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chris, you got a split personality pal!
ha! Just like me... helps to keep the balance. Well done. I am proud of you!
Good work pal, I shall try and convince ddl to get this posted at the keep...
but then again, this article deserves to get in by itself, provided he sees it!

Try and get this posted at mrfixitonline, NoCode "ShadeMM" or would love to help
you in that respect.

Cheers!

(You deserve this...)


------------------
Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger
and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and
better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning.
(:-p)
Win 2000?
Your mouse has moved. Windows has to reboot for changes to take effect. [ OK ]


chris_the_great
HGS Cherub posted 03-18-00 07:47 AM EDT (US)    12 / 76
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for the encouragment, now you can be sure to see me write more
AS I said, this is my first guide so it is a little faulty. But my next
(Mongols) is being "beta-read" by Kushik Khan and others, and is huge, and I
mean HUGE !
Now for my strategic me

I don't consider the economic upgradesa at the end to be useless. With them all
you can make your villagers more efficient.

As for the boar part, I know a group of nine is more efficient, but...if you
have three vills per boar from a group of nine and have three boars, you'll get
the same amount of food from each, but in the end will have more than if you had
done it with one single boar (hunting each boar, finding it, etc...)
Also, I don't like luring boars as it is very risky and hard to perfect.
Otherwise there is that, yes.

Oh. Why are there only 11 replies so far ? I mean, this thread deserves more !
Please people, post !

Thanks !

Christophe
"Chris the Great"



HARP00N
posted 03-18-00 07:20 PM EDT (US)    13 / 76
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You said: send all your men@arms to the enemy base. A simple stone wall can stop
that.

chris_the_great
HGS Cherub posted 03-19-00 05:06 PM EDT (US)    14 / 76
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Listen Harpoon,
I'm getting seriously p*ssed of with you as are a lot of forumers.
I said this was my first guide and was in no way flawless. Had you actually read
anything you'd know that.
Now if you think you can do better, do so. This is in no way the first, second,
third, fourth or even fifth comment you've made in that style.
I rest my case.

Now to answer your ironic question, not many people in dark age build stone
walls, nor may people in early feudal. And if they do they never can barricade
there whole base. It require over 400 stone.
I re-rest my case.

Christophe
"Chris the Great"


chikinzman
Forum Member posted 03-19-00 06:07 PM EDT (US)    15 / 76
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
this is really great!
you obviously have thought these things through.
keep it up!
------------------
el pollo diablo--
the devil chikin


iNsAnE_Centurio
Forum Member posted 03-19-00 06:56 PM EDT (US)    16 / 76
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I must admit that it was a really nice attempt. I don't want to discourage you
but you should edit your post, considering what SHS_Rubblarp said.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. To build a mill by the boars... Dont you know how to "lure" a boar... you
attack with one villager then run back to TC were all the villagers kills it...
why waste wood on a mill near boars.. insane :P. The bonus you describe can be
used in 1 way effectivly... it is if you go and hunt your opponents boars... but
that is quite risky.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That is true. Luring a boar isn't difficult at all if you practise a bit. But
the 100 wood spent on a mill next to the boars really hurts. Not to mention the
posibility that the boars may be in the complete opposite direction.
On the contrary if you can lure your opponents boar away with 3 villagers you
gain about 300 food, while your opponent loses these 300. (Most competent player
rely on boars so they will feel the difference)


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2. Infantry feudal attack... Well come to the rated world of the zone and try
that out... if you do that in 10 games I bet you`ll lose them all. The only
feudal attack that is good is the archer rushes. Infantry arent fast enough to
kill the villagers... and they will often by accident run into the TC fire and
die...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am not convinced about the build order and the speed of the strategy. I think
that times have been going down and down which a good feudal infantry rush will
fail to garrisoned Town Centers.


------------------
"I am a typed director. If I made Cinderella, the audience would immediately be
looking for a body in the coach." Alfred Hitchcock


Octavia
Forum Member posted 03-19-00 07:44 PM EDT (US)    17 / 76
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chris the Great-You did a very good job it is really good, one of the best I've
seen.Although I would like if I could use your articles about the civilizations
for my site I am currently working on located at http://octaviaaok.homestead.com
I would like it if I can use your articles.Thank You Octave


ThanatoZ
posted 03-20-00 00:22 AM EDT (US)    18 / 76
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nice job on this article, it is very good, and deserves to go back to the top.

BroacLanders
HGS Cherub posted 03-20-00 03:47 AM EDT (US)    19 / 76
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SHS rublarb-


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
infantry feudal attack... Well come to the rated world of the zone and try that
out... if you do that in 10 games I bet you`ll lose them all. The only feudal
attack that is good is the archer rushes. Infantry arent fast enough to kill the
villagers... and they will often by accident run into the TC fire and die...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Um what are you smoking? I would sure like some of that stuff.
You cant have a good fudel rush without a few man@arms. It just doesnt work. You
are right that they will die to the TC. But what idiot lets his M@A's walk in TC
range. The are the ONLY fudel unit that can kill buidings. Even losing a house
or two will hurt this early in the game. M@A's also kill villagers faster then
archers do. Any goth player who decideds to fudel rush without using m@a's is a
retard. Goths have the best fudel age infantry in the game.




quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The late economical techs are not important at all...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Late game economic bonuses are VERY IMPORTANT.

Why?

It takes less vills to produce the same amount of reasouces.

+15% woodcutting means you need 15% LESS vills chopping wood. This means you can
have 15% MORE millitary.

The same goes for all the other techs econ techs.
This is even better with the Goths then it is with the other civs. the +10 pop
plus the fact that they need less imperial age villagers means they can fully
benifit from their hordes.

[This message has been edited by BroacLanders (edited 03-20-2000).]


chris_the_great
HGS Cherub posted 03-20-00 05:02 AM EDT (US)    20 / 76
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Once again, thanks for the encouragment.
I have to say it is my first guide (again !) and is not flawless !!!

Anyway, let's hop onto my other personality which is the strategic me.

Indeed, Boar Luring is very usefull, if you can pull it off correctly and
quickly. If it takes you more than a minute like some people, it's not at all
usefull. Not at all. Not only does it mean you have one less villager for a
minute or so, it also means you lose one minute of micro-managing. And that
means you forget to build villagers, forget to shift your sheep villies that are
now idle to berries, forget to build a house...And with all that you can be two
or more villies down. And that may no be much in the short term, but in ten
minutes it means you can be as much as 800 down in resources. Now that hurts.
Now sopme of you may see Boar Luring from a different angle.
On a side note, many of you say that boars can be in totally opposing
directions. I don't know why, but whenever I play a random map they are almot
always together and nearby a pack of dear. Weird...

I have often tried the Goth Men at Arms Infantry Rushand more or less 80% of the
time managed to seriously weaken the enemy and put me on the road to victory.
Man of you have protested on the point that the Town Center can easily dispatch
ten Men at Arms. I don't know if any of you noticed, but I said around 15-20.
And that is a lot. And despite what you think, a Town Center can't always take
out all of that. If you upgrade the pierce armor as I said, the Town Center will
have a lot of trouble fighting them off. On a personal experience, I got into
the rushing habit after a game again the computeron hardest. He rushed me in
early Feudal with 10-20 Men at Arms. And they had armor upgrades as well as the
LoS upgrade. The decimated about 5 of my villies before the got to the Town
Center, and I only had about 30 in there. The Men at Arms managed to damage the
Town Center enought to "eject" all of my men and then killed them.
So a rush isn't useless after all. And if it was, why would ES program their AI
on hardest to do it ?

Other than that, I will certainly write more (I am currently on a Mongol Guide)
and will do all possible to improve them.

Octavia, you can use the guide on your site.

Thanks !

Christophe
"Chris the Great"

SHS_Rubblarp
Forum Member posted 03-20-00 09:26 AM EDT (US)    21 / 76
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh lovely broac is flaming me again... well broac the fact is still that you
dont play in rated and in unrated there are mainly rookies.. Everythin will work
vs them. Plz tell me when and with how much army you attack in feudal age.. and
then I cant see any reason at all for using the slow assed goths as a rushing
civ... wow 10% cheaper infantry... I mean you will save 50 food and 15 gold..
Yippie! Considering the chinese tech research bonus and the 3 starting and
you`ll see that your slow assed goth start will put you in deep trouble.

chris_the_great
HGS Cherub posted 03-20-00 09:37 AM EDT (US)    22 / 76
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm sorry, but Boroac is absolutely right.
If you want to protest or add something, please do so but in a civilised way.
Thank you.
Christophe
"Chris the Great"



SHS_Rubblarp
Forum Member posted 03-20-00 09:58 AM EDT (US)    23 / 76
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well Chris you are free to play me and attack me with your M@A... I would like
to hear some TIMES and NUMBERS for these attacks... Since you are the one that
said boar hunting is hard I cant take anything you say seriously.. to say that
goths are neutral in economy is a piece of bull****. The late economy techs are
useful but they are not important... And if I am not totally wrong goth lack one
of the most important economy techs (gold shaft mining) I might be wrong... but
well as I said everything works vs a rookie (aswell as it works vs AI) but come
to rated rooms and face the "real" players and you will see that your strategys
will be as good as icecream on arctia.
I am sorry if I get a little flamy but stupidity = you will be flamed.


chris_the_great
HGS Cherub posted 03-20-00 11:21 AM EDT (US)    24 / 76
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'd love to play your Rubblarp but as I keep repeating I can't play Zone games
or any online game for that matter. Only LAN.
As this is actually a civilized strategy discussion, I'll give you the times and
numbers which are already listed but you probably didn';t notice them.

Numbers :.

At least 15-20 Men at Arms (This is an infantry rush, remember ?), and you can
throw in a couple of archers and cav to take care of those fast villies.

Time :

This strat is to be pulled off early feudal or late dark. Best early Feudal.

Satisfied ?

Good.

Christophe
"Chris the Great"


BroacLanders
HGS Cherub posted 03-20-00 12:12 PM EDT (US)    25 / 76
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SHS-
God im sick of your stupid ass.

Note I said IF the Goth player fudel rushes he needs M@A's. I never said he
should fudel rush.

And you never even tried to defend your second statement so I guess that means
you were wrong and you know it.

If you really think that I don't know what im talking about because I don't play
in rated rooms then I really want to play you on the zone (YoTangoBannana). I
know for a fact I can beat your dumb ass. I'm sick of you trying to counter
facts and logic by saying that im a rookie because I dont like to play with
rude, rated players like yourself.


[This message has been edited by BroacLanders (edited 03-20-2000).]


SHS_Rubblarp
Forum Member posted 03-20-00 01:03 PM EDT (US)    26 / 76
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well broac you dont like me.. I dont like you.. so we probably dont get too much
out of discussin (or whatever it is we do.. a flame war is probably better)...
Chris.. what I meant wasnt the time early feudal I meant like 13 mins in2 the
game or whenever you do it...


chris_the_great
HGS Cherub posted 03-20-00 01:39 PM EDT (US)    27 / 76
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'll leave you two to settle your differences and keep the thread going
Personally, the earliest I ever rushed was somehting like 10:00 but I usually
try to acheive a 13 to 15 min deadline.


SHS_Rubblarp
Forum Member posted 03-20-00 01:59 PM EDT (US)    28 / 76
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And when do you have 15-20 m@as? And how many villagers do you have.. you see
that is important for a strategy to succeed...

styrbiorn
Forum Member posted 03-20-00 02:11 PM EDT (US)    29 / 76
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Really nice work, chris! I often play the Goths because I find them very fun to
play, the problem is just that I am not too good at it (that means I always
loose), so help is needed.

BTW, I just have to mention a trivial thing about the history of the Goths. It's
correct that the Goths comes from Gotland, but to Gotland, they came from
mainland Sweden, from an area that was (and is) called Gtland. People have
flame me for "being nationalistic and not realistic" when I have stated this,
but if that is the case, Gotland is in Sweden too .


Kyaia
Forum Member posted 03-20-00 02:42 PM EDT (US)    30 / 76
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey, thanks styrbiorn, I never knew about that.
BTW...The mainland is called Gtaland. But,,,whatever.

------------------
Kyaia was here
ICQ: 66576504


ES_Sandyman
VIP posted 03-20-00 03:33 PM EDT (US)    31 / 76
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My only comment is that the Goth anti-building bonus is better than Chris has
made it out to be. This is because some buildings have armor vs. normal attacks.
For instance, a Goth man@arms does 2 damage to a gate. A normal man@arms does
only 1. The Goths getting +1 damage may not seem like much, but it means group
of Goth men@arms get through a gate twice as fast. Not just "+3" as fast. Twice.
Against other buildings with armor, the Goths do correspondingly better (though
the best-case is the gate, since it has the most armor).

chris_the_great
HGS Cherub posted 03-20-00 04:27 PM EDT (US)    32 / 76
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I guess that means I have to re-do some of the calculations then...
Other than that, whay did you think of the rest of the guide Sandyman ?
Thanks !

Christophe
"Chris the Great"


Vasa
Forum Member posted 03-20-00 04:40 PM EDT (US)    33 / 76
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Good job on the strat but i have to agree with Rubblarp about first: Boar luring
is really easy, you just have to practice to dont get villagers standing idle.
Second: The whole men@arms rush doesnt seem too good to me. The resaon is that
your putting yourself so much behind. Those 15-20 men@arms will come way to late
when most people are already on the way to castle (or be at castle)and the
easiest way to defend from that rush is simply to relocate the villagers you are
attacking. When the castle upgrade is complete, tcs will get up, making it
impossible to do harm with men@arms and knights, monks, rams and tcs will
easily beat you when your still in feudal.
Goths is IMO defineatly not a rushing civ but instead a quite strong imerial
force, when you can start massing champs faster and cheaper. If you survive that
long...

Still you have done a good work and i think you should definatly keep it up as
this forum really lacks good strategy posts.



chris_the_great
HGS Cherub posted 03-21-00 11:50 AM EDT (US)    34 / 76
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To the...Top !

SHS_Rubblarp
Forum Member posted 03-21-00 11:54 AM EDT (US)    35 / 76
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Instead of saying "to the top" you could answer my questions. I`ll ask you
again:
A. When do you have 15-20M@A rdy to attack your opponent?
B. When do you get to castle age after such a heavy attack?
C. How many villagers do you build be4 advancing to the feudal age?
D. Do you make extra villagers or just build M@A when you are in feudal?
As far as I know this is a really sucky tactic which might work vs newbies in
the unrated rooms and vs low rated people but well I MIGHT (plz feel the
sarcasm) be enlightened of your answers...


Methos
Forum Member posted 03-21-00 12:38 PM EDT (US)    36 / 76
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree with all of Rubblarp points. I just wished he stopped talking in AOL
(l8r, be4, etc).
=D



agios_katastrof
Forum Member posted 03-21-00 02:06 PM EDT (US)    37 / 76
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1st, I'm a mediocre player at best, and I find boar luring relatively easy.
There's no special skill or talent employed in this standard tactic.
2nd, chris, this is a good effort, but since you are limiting yourself to LAN
play, you have a much smaller and slower universe of tactics development. This
shows in your article. m@a rushes went out of phase quite some time ago. Please
don't take that offensively, that is just a matter of fact. Your typical
mediocre player on the zone (e.g., myself) knows this. The critiques on your
article are coming from players that are tapped into the much larger pool of
experience. Even if you find them abrasive, you should give them more weight.

3rd, I am continually amazed by the popularity of the Goths and the Mongols on
this board. At least the Mongols are fast.

4th, if the random civs gods were feeling funny and have decided to bless me
with the Goths, I would think that my best hope would be to boom to imp and pump
champs. Yes, as you've noted, Gothic champs, along with the team bonus, are very
good. Unfortunately, lack of walls and a slow arse econ doesn't make this easy.
Btw, contrary to what you have stated, lack of walls and towers is _not_ the
main reason why people avoid the Goths. It's the lack of an early econ bonus,
and a limited choice of units and tactics. Once I do have those champs, I am
searching for cheap support units, and finding that I have no arbs. In a 3v3
game, I guess they may be able to do quite well, and contribute quite a bit with
their team bous and cheap champs. But that's about all you can seriously
consider with them, IMHrookieO.


-agios_katastrof


Angel Dark Knight
HGS Angel posted 03-21-00 10:31 PM EDT (US)    38 / 76
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chris,
If you would like this strategy posted on AOK Heaven, put it in microsoft word
and email it to me.
Dark Knight


Eater
Forum Member posted 03-22-00 08:18 AM EDT (US)    39 / 76
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Goth sux....hum I don't think you're convinced, well come to zone and sneak into
few good/expert game and protend ur a pro and check it out =) after you learn
the truth and facts with much verbal abuse from ur teamate and oppopents
sometime =) ask politely why Goth sux?? I asure you that you'll be enlighted =)
(posted in a joking matter, don't take seriously^_^)
If that don't work you must understand one thing, no matter how promising the
future is, it really don't sound good if you not there to live it right???? if I
castle faster then you and on you the whole game how good is a good late
economic if I'm harvesting ur gold and stone and BTW some of ur farm too*evil
grin*.

That +5 attack against boar is just another way to said *I know you thinking I'm
joking but if you try to make it working, boy you must be drinking* lol attempt
to make it ryhme =) think about it all those micromanagement you put in for a
boar tactic which are a ineffective in most case, you could spended on other
things that are important(hint: hunter don't drop their food that often, which
could creat problem if you hunt too early instead of barry) walking three
villeger early in dark to enemies base and try to steal the boar???? ohhh boy
first is not worth it, second you must be quite a multi tasker(just think about
all the complication that could arise???) =)

Let's give a Goth player the edge and say he rush in fedual with M@R that could
smiply be defeated by villeger alone, if you wanna look good on score, lure it
to TC for a shot down =) any good player know how to defend a rush especially a
fedual infantry rush, which are a no brainer =)

They don't miss much on the TECH tree??? heck but they miss all the important
one's =( without infantries best supporting unit arblast, and to put insult on
injuries, Goth most effective unit champion miss the final armor upgrade!!!!
sure you could produce faster but it's not like ur siege is doing any hotter
either lol

On a arabia map Goth could pull a full fedual rush with *MIX* of unit with good
parnters that might works and be a contender if survive the fedual to castle age
till imperial in a good shape. On any map that require wall at all Goth just
hand's down stinks...hehe, you can't compete with other range wise, due to the
lack of siege and archer upgrades, that means you had to waste lot more resource
with lot more skills just to get through the walls and the best part is you
can't wall you self in =) LMAO, human meat sheild?.....now I'm really laughting

Christ you had great guide posted !!! I'm serious I couldn't do half as good as
ur post =( you just have to get more experience against better players then
perhaps you could really pull off a good Goth stra that stunn the unbeliever of
Goths.


armagedn
Forum Member posted 03-22-00 10:58 AM EDT (US)    40 / 76
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If only Rubblarp would learn some basic rules of diplomacy and tact, people
might be more attuned to what he has to say.
Like it or not, his points are valid. And if you go back to his initial acidic
comments, he did say he agreed w/ chris on several points (he neglected, of
course, to mention which ones).

Theory is nice. It's the execution that matters. And Goths enter the fray with
notable handicaps, and few benefits. I cannot see an all-out Goth maa rush
working against even intermediate players - certainly in a 1v1 situation it is
probably more lethal to the attacker's economy than the defenders to try this.
Slow speed, poor LOS, and a maddening ability to get themselves killed dooms maa
to also-ran status. Archers require little micromanagement, and as they do not
cost food, they do not hurt your castling times like the maa's.

There are very good reasons why Goth is always at or near the bottom of the
barrel for civ selection - most notably the complete lack of any economic bonus.
Every other civ in the game gets SOMETHING, even the Turks added gold intake and
the Byzantine Imp bonus have value.

Here's hoping Goths get some much needed assistance to raise them to an
acceptable, competitive level.

armagedn
Forum Member posted 03-22-00 11:22 AM EDT (US)    41 / 76
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Almost forgot! About that boar issue (and a few other things):
"Now, you may say, what is the use of killing a wild boar with fewer villagers ?
Well, the answer is pretty clear. If you can kill a boar with three villagers,
you can kill two with six. In other words, you'll get a larger food income than
other civs when you find boar. As boars usually tavel in packs of two, you will
usually always find two boars by your base, for a total of 680 food in half the
time it would take other civs. Usually, with Goths, I build my first mill, not
by berries, deer, or shore fish, but by boar."

I have to take issue with this, lest newbies who read your concisely-written
Gothic tract take all its contents as gospel. I can only say for those of us
with far more experience, reading this portion hampers the entirety of the
article, since it is so completely off-base.

Yes, you CAN kill a boar with fewer Gothic villagers, but why WOULD you? You
will NOT get a "larger food income than other civs." If you use fewer villagers,
you will get LESS food. Period. The fewer vills per boar, the more food is
wasted due to rotting. I would say the absolute MINIMUM you should place on a
boar, regardless of civ, is 5 villagers (6-8 is common). Even if you can kill a
boar with fewer Goth vills, you should still place more vills on the carcass to
avoid waste.

Also, as has been pointed out earlier in this thread, there is no need to build
a mill by boars, unless there are shorefish and/or other game nearby. Boar
luring is surprisingly easy - with practice, you can do it even without the loom
and not lose any villagers, though you should get the loom, anyway (lag is the
real killer for boar lurers).

Boars do not "usually travel in packs of two." Without testing, I would estimate
this is the case in roughly half the maps. As often as not, the boars will be
equidistant from the TC, but a full two screens or more from each other.

For the record, this is not intended as a flame of any kind. I have read plenty
of well-written guides that raise interesting points, or praise the unsung civs.
You are not the only Goth champion, but they need their supporters, as they are
(perhaps by design?) an underdog.

As Rubblarp points out, your guide lacks hard evidence - some numbers (and
perhaps a link to an example game) to show how your theory pans out in gameplay.
And, unfortunately, weak arguments and obvious disinformation (like the boar
item) can only undermine all the time you put into your efforts. Good luck with
the Goths, and perhaps you can do some testing and apply some necessary edits to
your article.


chris_the_great
HGS Cherub posted 03-22-00 04:47 PM EDT (US)    42 / 76
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You've all beat my Goths Men at Arm Feudal Rush to the ground so I'll have to
develop new strats for them
I'm glad to see there are some more (armagedn and Eater) that have some valid
points and debates unlike some others that just want to beat me to the ground
because I did something they'd never acheive  (Note the smiley and I gave no
names ).

As for the famous phrase "Goths suck", I'll prove you otehrwise with a recorded
game, Me vs Two Allied Computers on Hardest difficulty. Just wait 'till I get
back to Riyadh and post a link. Youssa Gonna Die (Registered, Copyrighted
Trademark of Jar Jar Binks (Registered, Copyrighted Trademark of Lucas Arts
(Registered, Copyrighted Trademark of Geroge Lucas (Registered, Copyrighted
Trademark of George Lucas' parents, etc, etc...)

Also, is there a good and willing Goths player that would like to challenge any
of you on the Zone, rated against experts and give them the recorded game to
show Goths do have a chance ? Thank you.

Christophe
"Chris the Great"


chris_the_great
HGS Cherub posted 03-22-00 04:50 PM EDT (US)    43 / 76
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Dark Knight.,
I've alreadyt sent it to Wash ages ago, but I'll sned it to you right now...

Christophe
"Chris the Great"


agios_katastrof
Forum Member posted 03-22-00 05:12 PM EDT (US)    44 / 76
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" I'll prove you otehrwise with a recorded game, Me vs Two Allied Computers on
Hardest difficulty. Just wait 'till I get back to Riyadh and post a link"
Uhmm... why do I feel a splurge of somewhat aggressively didactic comments
coming?

-agios_katastrof

[This message has been edited by agios_katastrof (edited 03-22-2000).]


LordDubious
Forum Member posted 03-22-00 06:12 PM EDT (US)    45 / 76
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Doesn't a Goth feudal rush kind of defeat the purpose of the marquee Gothic
bonus (cheaper troops)? Since the bonus gets stronger as the ages progress,
isn't it better to wait to build your horde? In Feudal, your infantry isn't
really THAT much cheaper than anybody else's. The decreased production time
would help, but in Feudal, when everyone's main focus seems to be saving up to
hit the Castle button, it seems to me that cost is a bigger factor than time.

BroacLanders
HGS Cherub posted 03-22-00 08:24 PM EDT (US)    46 / 76
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Eater-
Now I know why you think they suck.

You play 1v1 tiny arabia pop 200 most of the time.

Am I right?

I bet you $100,000,000,000 that I am.

Under these settings there are only 3 civs in the game. Chinese, Brits, and
mongols.

This is because no other civ can build a town center army as fast as these 3.

In this case the Goths DO suck. But so do: saracens, turks, japs, celts,
byzanties, etc.

Next time play the game on some different settings before you come in and bash
all Goth fans simpily because they do not play with YOUR settings.

[This message has been edited by BroacLanders (edited 03-22-2000).]


JKA_Biffus
Forum Member posted 03-22-00 08:25 PM EDT (US)    47 / 76
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Preeeeeety nifty.

Eater
Forum Member posted 03-23-00 01:21 AM EDT (US)    48 / 76
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*Getting into accepting money stance* lol I for one like play with more maps but
soldem do anyone wanna play maps like gold rush etc, because ppl are afraid of
new things that they aren't use to it. I point out Arabia map is because that's
one map the wall won't matter that MUCH =) that to be said GOTH SUX ya I mean it
GOTH WORSHIPER you hehe but that don't exclude them from be effective, in a
highly competitive environment such as zone rated the difference between games
often are not the fastest castle wins but who's more aggresive and who had
better command of the game (Okay I'm not the one >_< ) Goth in a able hand could
be effective, but comparative wise if you had other civ to chose to aid you
battle against a player you know that are good, are you gone CHOSE GOTH?? I
think not, if teutons which are banned get more use then Goth----that indicate
this civ is in need of help, and I said they sux because I'm rude and I feel
like, nah you ain't gone bit me!! cause I'm gone knock ur tooth to teeth! lol

chris_the_great
HGS Cherub posted 03-23-00 04:17 AM EDT (US)    49 / 76
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Didn't you ntoice the smilies ?
Now first let's stop before this turns into a flame war. We're civilized beings,
remember ?

For info, Goths do not suck as do any other civs, but if you can't play them,
then [b[you[/b]'re the one that sucks. And you suck bad as you can't even tell
you do. I know you may disagree, but it's the truth. Yes it is.

NOTE : I gave no names so if any of you defend against this it means you
recognize yourself in the words, in which case all above is true.

Christophe
"Chris the Great"


Eater
Forum Member posted 03-23-00 06:56 AM EDT (US)    50 / 76
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I promote peace and harmony =) we must clear our mind and be happy....BUT
SERIOUSLY GOTH DO SUX haha =) just like to mess with ya'll Goth lickers
hehe.....this is getting to a fun event to me ^_______^

SHS_Rubblarp
Forum Member posted 03-23-00 07:50 AM EDT (US)    51 / 76
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Well as you might understand I am seriously doubting wheter I should continue
this debate or stop it... Well debating with chris is imo useless since he is
playin LAN games only = below rookie level. Allthough he made a nice guide he
said some things (which Ive pointed out earlier) that was total rubbish.
I just wanted to say to broac that I always play random map (or any set map but
preferably with water allthough I play arabia occasionly to get games vs good
opponents that only plays that map). And I consider goth completly worthless
(and so are your statement about there are only 3 viable civs.. Ive never seen a
good mongol player but Ive seen several vikings, celts etc) since there are ON
EVERY MAP one of the three other infantry civs that are A LOT better then the
goths. Its just that Vikings, Japz and celts are enough. The fourth infantry civ
is useless on any settings (well maybe not on pop 25). And it is because they
lack economic bonuses they are useful in imperial but not better then for
example the vikings...

Its still fun to see that there are so many goth supporters you obviously see
something in this civ (or more likely refuse to see the benefits of some of the
other similar but better civs)... And dont tell me I cant play them cause I can
play any civ in these game on a good level but goth is the only one which NEVER
is my first choice.


armagedn
Forum Member posted 03-23-00 10:45 AM EDT (US)    52 / 76
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There's the word: choice.
If you CHOOSE Goth, you are doing so because

1) You know you outclass your opponent, and are evening up the scales to some
degree.
2) You want to try something different, in a fun game.
3) You lost a bet.

Some people are proficient with Goth, having played them on many different maps,
at different settings. Almost everyone has a "pet" civ, and for some underdog-
lovers, Goth is the one. Besides, if you become a Goth God, you will have earned
an added measure of respect due to the nature of their inherent limitations.

No one is deriding a choice for the purpose of sheer fun (ok, maybe Rubblarp is
). I enjoy playing Goths in "fun" (read: 'non-competitive') games. They are
certainly challenging, and their team bonus is welcome in almost any game. But
in the sole area of Goth proficiency, infantry, other civs do it better and
faster. In fact, almost any civ that gets champs is a better choice, if winning
is your only goal.


Methos
Forum Member posted 03-23-00 12:02 PM EDT (US)    53 / 76
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Rubblarp, debating the strength and weaknesses of civs (aka balance) in this
forum is something I learned not to do years ago. Trust me man, let it go. Just
let people think, "all civs are good, players just need to learn how to play
them" which does hold true on a rookie level.
You are in a different world than some of the posters in this thread. Every
"small" difference such as free wheel techs translates to a huge gameplay effect
at this level. This isn't the case when you construct mills near boars because
luring is too difficult. Thus, you (and a few others) are debating with people
whose experiences come from an entirely different setting. Futile.


SHS_Rubblarp
Forum Member posted 03-23-00 12:48 PM EDT (US)    54 / 76
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Guess you are right methos... but somehow I cant stand it when people says
stupid things.
Armagedn.. since noone has said anythin about having fun in this thread I make
my own conclusion.. they want to win. If you want to win goths aint the civ. I
know you dont like me, but Im not on the forums to make friends thats why my
language can be a little harsch sometimes. If you are offended or so I couldnt
care less.. Im not making friends Im debating my favourite game...


Sand stone
Forum Member posted 03-23-00 01:21 PM EDT (US)    55 / 76
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Defence: bad?? I think Goths have no defence at all!
It is fatal.
Infantry: Not really good, it is "cheap", only "cheap".

Other units: Missing some blacksmith upgraades. No elite archery stable sieges
units. Overall, fair-bad.

UU: Stupid! It's NOT AoE, it's AoK! Archers can be counteract and they aren't
such powerful. Your UU's pierce armor didn't make it outstanding. Moreover,
Huskarls are weaker than champions! They are the only infantry UU weaker than
champions! How can they survive vs. champs/ paladins?

To play against Goths, use onagers to replace scorpions.





armagedn
Forum Member posted 03-23-00 01:21 PM EDT (US)    56 / 76
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Rubblarp:
Whether or not your blunt and frequently juvenile flaming of others offends me
is of little matter - to say nothing of your incessant bragging on this and
other forums. I have noted, since the first time I was unfortunate enough to
respond to one of your threads on the GX forum, that anyone who disagrees with
your "expert" opinion gets flamed and called a newbie.

For the most part, I have agreed with you on many points, but to get people to
understand that you know what you're talking about, and to respect your opinion,
you can't just go around verbally kicking everyone in the nuts and spitting on
them. Why should anyone even take you seriously, as your entire intent appears
to condescend and insult?

Hell, I respect your knowledge of the game - you were way ahead of the pack
regarding the Saracens, and you even opened my eyes to the true effectiveness of
Woad Raiders (in the aforementioned flame on GX).

I just can't understand why you would be here if not to share knowledge, unless
you get your kicks solely from insulting people. If you want people to
understand your point of view and even (dare I say it?) gain their respect
(since you don't want friends), then try and treat others with some measure of
respect. Believe it or not.you aren't always right.


chris_the_great
HGS Cherub posted 03-23-00 02:14 PM EDT (US)    57 / 76
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I don't know if I'll bother telling Rubblarp the answer to his questions as all
he's doing is stiring sh*t and trying to prove he is bigger, better, smarter (!)
than us all. Which he is not.
How many f*cking times do I have to point out it is my first d*mn guide and is
full of mistakes but it's a good beginning in my opinion.

All of you (only a few, the stupied ones) who argue a civ is best or a civ sucks
are total morons who are too chicken to try out another civ than the all
powerfull Teutons or Britons and can't stand a challenge, which is what I wanted
when I played Goths. Face it, you like life the easy way. I like complications.

And what ? Pkay I'm only 13. And so what ? Does that make you better than me ?
No, sorry, it doesn't. I'm only 13 and you think you can pick on me. I'm only 13
and you may be younger hurling abuse at everyone as in real life, not your
fictive cyber life, you can't take it.

Sorry guys, I couldn't stand it. Some of these guys just quicly read through and
don't look at my most important points.
Please, I'm having a bad day so don't ban me or anything. Don't flame me either.

I'll try to b more diplomatic next time. When the flamees grow up and can take a
diplomatic discussion without cussing and all.

Christophe
"Chris the Pretty Good but who Cares ?"

[This message has been edited by chris_the_great (edited 03-23-2000).]


agios_katastrof
Forum Member posted 03-23-00 02:49 PM EDT (US)    58 / 76
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Whatever happened to Borgboy? Now there was a 13 year old that was something
else. Others, well... they are 13 year olds.
-agios_katastrof



Octavia
Forum Member posted 03-23-00 03:13 PM EDT (US)    59 / 76
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There are 13 year olds,10 year olds even 9 year olds on this forum and I would
wish that everyone could stop discriminating them or harrasing there posts.I'm
not telling you my age but I will tell you that im over 14 and less then 20.I do
have to admit that I was around Chris's age when Age of Empires came out and I
had this cool report on The Shang and guess what nobody looked at it or
commented on it and it was twice as long as Chris's.
Now give this man a break OK, everybody makes mistakes nobodys perfect and you
shouldn't expect anyone to be perfect.Nor angels or Forummers should be
perfect.Perfection drives people to stree or even suicide and I'm sure you don't
want to be responsible to somebodys death.Now if it is Bad comment on how good
it is, it will make that person happy and it might even make you happy knowing
somebody else is happy.If you can't understand something from that persons point
of view ask politely if he/she could detail it more.

I'm not going to let anyone flame anyone, critizise there posts not them.Last
time I had to stop flaming it was....(Edited by Octavia due to the fact it's
embarrasing to a forummer)....So now please don't flame the person who wrote the
post.

Now talking about the post.

Chris I put your post on my site under the article section

Octavia's AoK secrets



SHS_Rubblarp
Forum Member posted 03-23-00 04:01 PM EDT (US)    60 / 76
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Well armageddn as I said you dont like me and whatever I write it wont change
your opinion. And as I also said that is not my intention. I know that I am not
always right (who is?) and some things I say might be taken for bragging... Ive
made some posts that I regret... really much. But there are at least 2 that my
littlebrother wrote when I was ****ed at him... well whatever. I am not a
perfect debater and you are right that my intention is to learn some1
something... but whatever. If people consider "you are wrong" a flame then Im a
a horrible flamer... Ive said some stupid things I admit it.. but it was a while
ago since I said something REALLY stupid (imo).


Potejon
Forum Member posted 03-23-00 04:27 PM EDT (US)    61 / 76
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A fun strat with goths and other inf civs are a feud maa rush with a boat boom,
basically do a normal boat boom but build 2-3 raxes and pump maa and take out
his tc, you will probably need 2 players doing it since it takes a lot of maa to
reach critical mass.
The goth rax bonus is is excellent for this.
Plus it can be follwoed up in castle with ls and rams.


armagedn
Forum Member posted 03-23-00 05:00 PM EDT (US)    62 / 76
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Chris:
Um, you didn't really help yourself with that last post. I assume you know where
the "edit" button is.


chris_the_great
HGS Cherub posted 03-23-00 06:21 PM EDT (US)    63 / 76
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Yes, but I want to leave that post there.
Anyway.
Let's just stop this guys, okay ? It's all degenerating into a flame war, and I
really don't like that.
Okay ? Friends ? Piece and Love ?
I do admit in the end, that the Goths are not one of the high end civs. They
have some weaknesses, but then who doesn't ? Saying they suck is being a bit
hard. I'd go more for a "The Goths are okay but harder to use than...", which is
true. The Goths don't suck they are just hard to use. And when someone can't use
a civ...they suck - to them. So everyone has things they're good at and take
seperate paths. Take other circumstances. I suck at football/soccer, the most
played sport in the world. But then I don't suck at roller-blading, hockey or
badminton, considerably more unopular sports. Same goes with AoK.

Anyway. I do admit the Goths strats are a little off, so...I'll delete them and
call this "Goths overview", and get help form an expert Goths player to compose
the rest. All of you satisified ?
Who are the expert Goths player ?!

Anyway. This is my wise post for the day and I'm off to bed.

Christophe
"Chris the Great"


armagedn
Forum Member posted 03-23-00 08:41 PM EDT (US)    64 / 76
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Chris - you haven't been paying attention. Most experts play games to WIN.
Experts don't WIN w/ Goth. Good luck finding a "Goth Expert."

SHS_Rubblarp
Forum Member posted 03-24-00 02:29 AM EDT (US)    65 / 76
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Chris... I didnt start this flame war... you and broac did by saying stupid
things. I disagreed but then you screamed. Broac is 100% right! (well thats
intelligent or?). And then it might have gotten a little flamy but I couldnt
care less.. flame wars often makes things a little more fun. I cant say I flamed
your personality.. only your thoughts.
Goths are (as Ive said 100 times by now) the worst civ in the game because there
are always at least one other civ that can do what the goth player do but more
efficient. Viking champs are better then goth champs and they also can get them
faster due to economical bonuses. I can easily beat most players on the zone
using goths but that doesnt mean the goths are good since IF you beat someone
with the goths you would beat them with ANY other civ. The reason people dont
play full tech tree is because they want to take advantage of the bonuses that
the civs get. Goths doesnt get any good bonuses (compared to the other civs)
thats the truth and ALL players in the rated rooms agree with me. If you play to
have fun thats a completly different issue and WHEN you write strategy guides
you usually make them so people will have easier to win with that civ. Goths is
the hardest civ to win with so therefore I see no reason to pick them. I play to
win and to have fun... IMO winning is more fun then losing. Come to the zone and
try for yourself chris...


Octavia
Forum Member posted 03-24-00 02:56 AM EDT (US)    66 / 76
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Now as many of you know I did add Chris's Goth Article to my site and it will
stay the way I got it, unedited.
Now if any of you don't like the Goths complain to ES, not a forummer who
believes there good.Now ES pledged that all civs are equal in a way such as
Chris's.Except it was more complicated.ES spent over a year on AOK and they
checked everything.They tried to get rid of the most common bugs but they took
months to get out(thats proably why it was delayed).Then September came around
and they published it as is.

People complain the Goths,Tuetons and Byzantines are unfair but they are equally
based.The Goths can produce alot of food,wood and stone/gold but have less
defence.A upside to this is that they could stay behing the walls of a
defensive/offencive player who has a bad economy and produce resources to them
for protecting them.Hence why goths are good in some case.

Merci, Octavia

------------------
Octavia's AoK Secrets


Cataphraction
Forum Member posted 03-24-00 07:26 AM EDT (US)    67 / 76
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Chris did an excellant job on researching his favorite Civ, this goes back to
the question " are there any bad civs?" which is no, Chris proves where theres a
will theres a way for any civ in the game to be used to win regardless of their
weakness.
Nice Job Chris!

------------------
"Only the dead have seen the end of war" Plato.


armagedn
Forum Member posted 03-24-00 08:46 AM EDT (US)    68 / 76
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Sigh.
Methos was right (again - **** him). No matter how much evidence to the contrary
is laid out in meticulous detail, no matter how many flames result in the
ensuing argument, people on this forum continue to state

"this goes back to the question " are there any bad civs?" which is no,"

Double sigh. Um, are you actually reading the comments here? Chris himself has
all but disavowed his article in the wake of its critics. Did you actually read
the article? Despite his enthusiasm, and despite the effort, it has many obvious
flaws.

I'm dumbfounded that there are still those who persist in the notion that "all
civs are basically equal." This is pure, unadulterated NONSENSE. They aren't;
they were never INTENDED to be. The truism: good players are proficient with any
civ. It's the PLAYER, not the civ. And



NoCode's Map Guide : Islands

NoCode
Forum Member posted 01-14-00 08:45 PM EDT (US)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As per armagedn's request, here is a guide to the Islands map. It isn't a map I
play often, but I played it a number of times all the same.
NoCode's Map Guides : ISLANDS

LAND MASS
Islands generally consists of several larger land masses (one for each player),
as well as several smaller islands. The entire map is encircled by ocean, with
no island bordering on the edge of the map. While the placement of the land
masses is generally arbitrary, the larger islands inhabited by players usually
lie in opposing cardinal directions, with the smaller islands placed between.

TERRAIN AND RESOURCES
The islands themselves are generally quite flat, with occasional small hills.
Essentially this plays little part in the placement of buildings. The main
islands have a substantial amount of forest (most significantly close to town
centers), whereas the smaller islands are frequently barren of forest. Each
player usually begins with 8 sheep, 2 boars, 4 deer, 2 gold mines and 2 stone
mines on their island.

Almost all of the ocean within the map is rich with fish, inviting a large scale
boat boom. There is no strikingly better place on the map to fish than others.

The smaller islands often harbor unclaimed gold, going to the first to take the
island.

OPENINGS
The excellent fishing in the Islands map makes a boat boom the most viable
opening. As outlined in the Continental map commentary, this involves a
concerted woodcutting effort, while building fishing boats from multiple docks.
In the Islands map, this can be taken even further, as the oceans hold much more
fish to be harvested.

Also, due to the nature of the map in that the possibility of an early rush is
reduced, it is plausible to create a significantly higher population before the
feudal transition (as many as 35 real vills and a similar number of boats). Such
an opening would yield a castle time of roughly 20 minutes, with vast amounts of
resources.

Since the islands are not interconnected, a fast feudal rush is considerably
more risky. However, with the aid of transports it should not be entirely
discarded. With the resources available, a 10 minute feudal time is plausible,
after which the rusher could dock, build a transport and land at the nearest
island. This would delay the rush by a minute or two, but would give the rusher
an early foothold on an enemy island. A feudal flush would be unlikely to
succeed due to the lateness of the attack, but a variation of this could be
used.

In such a map, a simple land based 30 pop opening is not particularly useful.
While a reasonable castle time is possible, the boat boomer will be far ahead in
terms of resources, which would take a long time to catch up.

PRIORITIES
Dark Age
Establish a woodcutting operation
After splitting the first six villagers of two sheep (you will have eight in
total on your island), start woodcutting. If you have a large amount of
stragglers you might be able to dock first, else build a lumber camp at a
suitable forest nearby and place almost subsequent villagers onto woodcutting
duty. This is essential to maintain a strong boat boom. Splitting them between
two lumber camps will increase efficiency due to less bumping and less walktime
(as the forest disappears at a lower rate).

Establish a strong fishing operation
Since there is good fishing at all points around your island, it is quite
plausible to boat boom for three or four (or more) docks. However, don't build
more each additional docks until you have to wood income to build boats from
each. Your dockers should build housing along the coast in their idle time, to
act as outposts against shore landings.

Boom in Dark
Since you effectively have more time than usual before the possibility of being
rushed presents itself, you can afford to build a larger number of villagers
because the Feudal transition. As many as 35 is a good start. However, this
could vary depending on how early you wish attack (if you wish to attack
earlier, an early castle of ~27 vills and 16 boats will yield a castle time in
17-18 minute range).

Scout the enemy shorelines
Sooner or later you will want to invade, and knowing the layout of the map is
essential. It is a good idea to send out a fishing boat in the Dark Age to map
the nearby shores. This will identify good places to land later, and is early
enough that the ship won't be lost to feudal warships (although if it is, it is
hardly a tragedy).

Feudal Age
Progress as quickly as possible
There is little to be gained by remaining in Feudal for any length of time, so
build your feudal buildings and get into the Castle Age transition as quickly as
possible. Queue a pair of villagers at your town center while waiting for the
buildings to be constructed, then go to castle. With the amount of fishing you
are carrying out, castling will be no problem.

Build a Feudal navy
Since you are investing so much into your fishing boats, it is important to
protect them against raiding warships. While you need not build a massive feudal
navy, a few galleys to engage any raiding party (including transports bound for
your shores) is a good idea.

This can be expanded to building a raiding party of your own, especially if your
scouting fishing ship locates a significant fishing operation nearby. Knocking
out a large number of fishing ships will cripple the economy of the boat boomer,
so protect yours and attack your enemy's.

Continue scouting
Keep your scouting fishing ship(s) mobile, the more you know about the layout of
the map, the better. Ensure to keep your ship close to shore to identify where
enemy docks are (this indicates where resistance to a landing party will emerge
from) and where enemy shore buildings are (so you don't land villagers beside
them and lose the element of surprise).

Transport to the enemy shores
Since there is no direct land link between the islands, land defence will be
minimal until into the Castle Age. If you have scouted the enemy shores well,
you should be able find a place to land out of sight of the enemy. Drop a pair
of villagers on shore, and begin constructing a forward base for a late
feudal/early castle raid. Committing fully to this attack may be fruitless as
the enemy will undoubtedly have enough food to castle and strike back, but
placing them of the defensive early while your economy grows is always useful.
If you don't mind your enemy knowing you are there, bring your scout along or
build one on shore. Knowing the location of the enemy resource gathering points
is important for the upcoming attack.

Ensure your coasts are secure
Chances are that an early landing will be attempted, so it is important to spot
it as soon as possible. Your dockers will have built sparse housing along some
of the shore to guard against a raid, but the land masses are substantially
large enough to prohibit doing this to the whole map. If you don't wish to house
much of your shore, then consider walling regions without useful resources.
Keeping the enemy of your territory is important, but ensure they can't progress
directly to your economic base if they do land.

Keep an eye on your fishing ships
These have a habit of taking shore fish instead of deep sea dish, then sitting
idle once the shore fish is harvested. Take care to keep them busy.

Castle Age
Drop multiple TCs in your town
You should have a substantial amount of wood considering the size of your
woodcutting operation, so building extra TCs on each useful resource should be
possible within minutes. This will keep your economy safe against land based
raids (and shore based, as town centers can match range with war galleys).

Boom, boom, boom
Create a large amount of villagers from your multiple town centers as quickly as
possible to fund your war efforts abroad.

Land on unclaimed islands
Vacant islands frequently have gold upon them ready for the taking. An early
landing on these and the construction of a town center will make these
reasonable secure until cannon galleys are fielded, so take these islands early
and strip them of gold before mid-Imperial.

Start the transition from fishing to farming
Get all the farming upgrades and slowly switch from fishing to farming. Fishing
slowly becomes less and less efficient as the ships have to travel further from
the docks. Building a new dock alleviates this, but this isn't always possible.
Also, as fighting on the water escalates, the fishing ships will frequently be
destroyed.

Start establishing a naval presence
The Islands map is all about domination of the seas. Knocking the enemy off the
water in Castle will make it easier to take a stranglehold of the ocean in
Imperial when cannon galleons take to the seas. If you don't have the dock
upgrades at this point, ensure you get them before engaging in substantial naval
battles (the upgrades make a lot of difference).

Secure a beach and land
If you can bring a large naval force to bear upon the shores of a enemy, you can
transport villagers in and develop a base to launch a land based attack. With
the supporting fire of the navy, there is little that can be done without a
significant amount of firepower to stop your villagers from building a
substantial forward base. This is applicable in the Imperial Age also, but at
that stage cannon galleons will do much of the work.

Establish trade routes
If playing in teams, establish secure trade routes. It is best to try to keep
these along an edge of the map rather than going through the center, as they are
less susceptible to attack. Protecting these trade routes is important, as there
is not a huge amount of gold in the Islands map.

Claim your relic
It is quite likely you will have a relic on your island. Build a monastery and
garrison it as soon as possible. I don't know anybody who objects to free gold,
and the chances of losing it before the enemy lands is small (monasteries aren't
usually the target of raids anyway).

Imperial Age
Field cannon galleons
If you have a grip on the seas, cannon galleons can be used to clear most of the
map. Fighting on the seas will frequently revolve around these. Britons
obviously don't have this option, and will be forced to make aggressive landings
as mentioned above.

Grind your opponent into the dirt
Obviously a requirement in the Imperial Age.

CONCLUSION
Islands is a map that encourages fierce ocean battles, a basic prerequisite for
land based warfare in the late game. Anybody who has a significant grip on the
seas will likely win, unless they are under a decisive attack on their economic
base. Civilizations with a strong navy obviously dominate, but any civilization
that can hold the seas will likely win.


[This message has been edited by NoCode (edited 01-14-2000).]

Author Replies:

Chuppo
Forum Member posted 01-14-00 08:49 PM EDT (US)    1 / 19
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Applause*
------------------
Never underestimate the magnitude of my laziness






Bayetz
Forum Member posted 01-14-00 09:24 PM EDT (US)    2 / 19
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Actually, island maps provide some early fights similar to land maps. But,
instead of men at arms attacking villagers, you have galleys attacking fishing
boats. You can't attack early gold and wood production, you can only attack food
production. The reverse of that is that, if you do some food on land, at the
same time that your boat are fishing, you should be able to work on all 4
ressources for a long time undisturbed. If they kill some of your fishing boats,
just do the same with theirs. There is no easy defense on sea, docks can't be
garrisonned with fishing boats, so think offense.

Another thing is that, playing island maps, you have to scout the sea as well as
the land. But, you can have more than one scout. Therefore, exploration can be
done quite fast.
Once again, NoCode, you did a great pedagogical job. I hope you know how to play
on all types of maps...

------------------
 la guerre comme  la guerre


[This message has been edited by Bayetz (edited 01-14-2000).]


NoCode
Forum Member posted 01-14-00 09:33 PM EDT (US)    3 / 19
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, you are absolutely correct, Bayetz, I think I brushed on both of those
points in my commentary (scouting in Dark Age priorities, feudal navy in feudal
priorities).
I am actually pretty comfortable playing on most maps (although some I obviously
like more than others), and I'll probably add to the series quite soon. Any
suggestions or requests are welcome (I just write these off the top of my head,
so there might be some aspects I am not touching on).




Bayetz
Forum Member posted 01-14-00 09:51 PM EDT (US)    4 / 19
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Right, a conscious reader will get from your post everything I said, in a
different form. But as your post is long, and as most readers will read but
once, I was just stressing some points.
If you get tired of describing good individual strats for different type of
maps, just think about team play.

But, of course, this is a much larger task. You have, for each map, to examine
how different civs should cooperate. A lot of variations are possible, and I'm
just thinking of 2 vs 2. I don't even want to think of all the possibilities
that exist for 3 vs 3 and 4 vs 4 games.

Well, I was just thinking loudly, no real suggestion there. But if you, or some
other good poster want to write on teamplay, a lot of us will read with delight.

_________________________________________________________________


I just observed that this is my 200th post. Writing and reading too much, and
not playing enough.


------------------
 la guerre comme  la guerre



NoCode
Forum Member posted 01-15-00 02:09 PM EDT (US)    5 / 19
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Heh, that does sound like a large task, Bayetz. At present I was just
concentrating on something I saw as reasonably finite, whereas writing about
strategy for teamplay would be a huge undertaking unless there were specific
facets that deserved commentary.
Perhaps in a small while I might look at it.

Also, if anybody has requests for a map guide, put it here, and I will look into
it.

------------------
Zone Name : ShadeMM



R0GUE
Forum Member posted 01-15-00 02:34 PM EDT (US)    6 / 19
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Excellent post, NoCode....you "Codified" good habits necessary to play this kind
of map well, and made many useful observations.
Two minor points to add; First, in terms of defending your own island against
landing by NME vills or troops, it's helpful to put up a stable as your feudal-
age military building. After you castle, produce a couple knights, and then put
them in a patrol pattern around the permimeter of your island (a permanently
repeated patrol loop). This will help you quickly spot a landing, and if it's
vills your NME has put ashore, the knights can easily track them down and kill
'em.

Secondly; When you land on one of the small, uninhabited island to grab gold,
it's also useful to through down a dock. This will make gathering that much more
efficient when it comes to the bountiful fishing spots between islands, and --
by enabling nearby production of warships -- will help you defend the island
against the inevitable NME attack.

Cheers



EOD_CO_CorpCool
Forum Member posted 01-15-00 04:53 PM EDT (US)    7 / 19
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I doint have anything to add. So Thx for another good post NoCode

VagrantKnight
Forum Member posted 01-15-00 05:44 PM EDT (US)    8 / 19
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
NoCode,
More please.

I might mention that it is not imperative to land on the enemy until Imperial if
you work very hard on building your navy and destroying his docks especially in
1 vs. 1 on small/tiny maps.

One of the games in Capt'n Kidd's anti-rush article involved him winning on a
team islands game without building any land military.


NoCode
Forum Member posted 01-15-00 06:50 PM EDT (US)    9 / 19
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
VagrantKnight,
You are absolutely correct. It isn't entirely necessary to land if you dominate
the seas. However, I really just wrote it with what I like to do in mind.

Nobody should take this as definitive guide to playing the map, it only outlines
the way I like to play, with plenty of aspects that are useful in general
circumstances. I try to speak in broader terms, but covering all strategies is
obviously impossible.

Please, if you want to add comments about other slants viable on a map type,
feel free. The more discussion, the merrier.

------------------
Zone Name : ShadeMM



Mousy
Forum Member posted 01-16-00 08:56 AM EDT (US)    10 / 19
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks! Great help.
I find Cannon Galleons and Elephants to be the only units worth the effort of
countering with conversion. Computer AI does it to me all the time. I haven't
seen CGs in games online.



VagrantKnight
Forum Member posted 01-16-00 09:16 AM EDT (US)    11 / 19
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi NoCode,
I'd be interested in knowing your opinions on the two broad approaches to
islands warfare: early (earlier) landing vs. domination of sea first.

Personally, I prefer the latter because it allows me to focus my economy and
military. Translation: I'm a lousy multitasker and it's easier.


Puke Dogwalker 2000
Forum Member posted 01-16-00 02:30 PM EDT (US)    12 / 19
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Turk Islands Strategy:
With an instant research for chemistry on approach to Imperial age, research
bombard cannons (especially do so if you do not yet have a dominance of the
seas)

Move the BCs toward the shore to create protection for the docks. Build at least
5 of them. BOOM! No more monopoly over the sea for other players.

------------------
Those who fail to learn the lessons of history, are doomed to get their asses
whooped on the Zone by me.


NoCode
Forum Member posted 01-16-00 03:24 PM EDT (US)    13 / 19
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
VagrantKnight,
Obviously this is a matter of personal tastes and style, but anybody who plays
with me will tell you that I definitely prefer the former to the latter.

Personally I make an early landing a reasonably high priority in any Islands
style map. I will usually build a transport early in feudal to establish a
forward base. Why? Well, it is basically all about initiative and getting the
upper hand early.

Because of the nature of islands, there is never very far to run. If you cancel
out your opponent's resources on their island, you stop them dead. Unlike
largely land based maps where villagers can scurry away and continue producing,
there is not far to run on Islands. A hard strike at the economy of an opponent
is more crippling because even if you don't kill their villagers, your opponent
will be forced to garrison them to protect them rather than flee them to
isolated resource points, and they aren't producing. Until they get a transport
out and set up elsewhere, or can drop TCs on resource points, their economy is
stagnant.

Meanwhile, yours is going strong, completely untouched until they consider
launching an attack. By placing them on the defensive early, the focus is
shifted towards merely surviving for them, while you get stronger. Delaying the
attack until later gives your opponent a chance to boom also (and perhaps
outresource you).

Also, there is a psychological implications. If you are running rampant on your
opponents island, unless they are quite good under pressure, they will be
rattled. Keeping the pressure on from the outset allows you to boom and level
them in Imperial (if the game makes it that far ).

[This message has been edited by NoCode (edited 01-16-2000).]


Bayetz
Forum Member posted 01-17-00 06:39 PM EDT (US)    14 / 19
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Back to the top.
------------------
 la guerre comme  la guerre



NoCode
Forum Member posted 01-17-00 06:59 PM EDT (US)    15 / 19
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for boosting these, Bayetz, I would feel bad promoting my own stuff, and
it gives people a chance to read it should they have missed it the first time
around.
Baltic is coming up next.


Cpt_Habidakus
Forum Member posted 02-24-00 02:26 PM EDT (US)    16 / 19
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Back to the top!!

Amin
Forum Member posted 03-21-00 02:55 PM EDT (US)    17 / 19
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ah, a fellow enjoyer of waterish maps
------------------

JKA_Amin on Zone
ICQ-58669258
Real Email is ASabz@yahoo.com


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Not to know what happened before one was born is to remain a child"
Cicero
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------







tonto_real
Forum Member posted 03-21-00 03:10 PM EDT (US)    18 / 19
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
NoCode,
I consider all of your map guides permanently posted at <A
HREF="http://www.MrFixitOnline.com" TARGET=_blank>www.MrFixitOnline.com</A> to
be superior documents... just like this one [of course, that's why they are
posted permanently over there, eh?].

To all,

When you get there, punch up 'site map' then look under 'General' in the left-
hand column to find all of NoCode's great map guides!

BTW; congratulations! You've won your knightly *spurs* in tonto clan if you care
to claim them.

------------------
tonto_real

BTW, 'tonto' means stupid in Spanish. Just thought you might enjoy that little
insight, eh?

COME JOIN US! We ARE the tonto clan, at <A
HREF="http://www.geocities.com/tonto_clan/index.html"
TARGET=_blank>http://www.geocities.com/tonto_clan/index.html</A> .

[This message has been edited by tonto_real (edited 03-21-2000).]


Vasa
Forum Member posted 03-21-00 03:49 PM EDT (US)    19 / 19
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------





The Franks: An incomprehensive Guide

AoErat
HGS Cherub posted 03-03-00 11:34 PM EDT (US)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Franks: An incomprehensive Guide
Written by AoErat

------------------------------------

Overview - This strategy works best on non-water maps, such as Highland, Rivers,
and Arabia. I will occasionally branch out to explain specific actions suited
only to a certain map. This strategy also assumes you are playing with the
default settings. The further into the game this strategy gets, the less
detailed it will be. This is due to the vast amount to things to do, and the
game will differ according to geography. It is not that important in the long
run, because while in the early ages each move is vitally important, but later
on, doing everything exact is not a important thing.

Readiness Tips: Sit straight, and focus on the game as it starts. Place your
left hand finger on the "ctrl" button on your keyboard, and your right hand on
the mouse. Get ready for immersion...

Section 1: The Dark Age

1.1 - The First Few Minutes

Imediately select your Town Center, and queue 4 villagers. Select your Scout and
set waypoints to explore in a ring around you Town Center. One of your
villagers, preferably the one farthest away from the others, needs to Build 2
houses. Try not to build them near any resources, especially Berries. Your last
2 villagers should Build a Woodcutting Camp near the closest trees, as close as
possible to them. If at all possible, build it on the South side of forests, not
the North. When it is built, make the villagers that built it and the 1 that
built the houses chop Wood. By now, your Scout should have discovered your first
4 Sheep. Bring them to your Town Center, and have your 4 previously queued
villagers begin "harvesting" them. Set your scout on waypoints around the enemy
territory, with the last waypoint being back at your base. (Before you do this,
be sure you have discovered your Berries, Gold, Wood, and Sheep.) The following
events can occur in a different order, but as long as the task is completed,
that is no problem.

1.2 - Settling In

As soon as all 4 queued villagers have been created, Research Loom. After it is
completed, you should have adequate food for creating another villager. Set the
Town Center's waypoint near the berries. After the villager is created, have
him/her build Mill near the berries. The placement of this building is
important. Keep it out in the open as much as possible, because you wil later
have farms around it. Don't worry about elevation, it has no effect on farms. As
soon as you have enough food, create another villager and set a waypoint to a
Berry Bush. When the Mill builder is finished, task him/her to harvest from a
Berry Bush. Now continue creating villagers and allocate them equally on wood
and food. (Side note for the Rivers map: Send a villager across the Shallows and
onto enemy land. Head away from the enemy base that you should have found by now
with your Scout. Do not go to far, because wolves will track you down.) Remember
to Build houses before you hit 15 villagers!

1.3 - Getting Ready To Feudal

Build a Barracks with any available Woodcutter. Start building Farms after about
5-7 villagers are harvesting Berries. Gradually pull villagers off of the
Berries and Build farms. They do not need to unload their Berries, as they will
keep their food after they begin farming. If a Boar or Deer are located near a
food collection point, you may want to take advantage of it. (This is not
recommended during laggy games.) Now, when you are nearing 30 villagers, send 1
villager to build a Mining Camp near the Gold, and when the villager is done
building, have him/her Mine Gold. (Side note for the Rivers map: Create another
villager, and place a wall across the Shallows, when the villager is finished,
make him/her do any needed task. Be sure to have enough houses, and build extras
so you have at least 40-50 slots. When you reach 30 villagers, it is time to
Feudal. Do not queue any more villagers, and wait for 500 food. As soon as 500
food is reached, click the Feudal button. Set a Town Center waypoint on Gold.

Section 2: The Feudal Age

2.1 - Basic Setup and Execution

When Feudal is reached, immediately research Double-Bit Axe and Gold Mining.
(You do not need to research Horse Collar, because the Franks get all Farm
upgrades free.) Next, queue 5 villagers. They will go to the Gold, because you
previously set a waypoint. Take 2 villagers off Woodchopping and have 1 build a
Market (If you have a Ally.) and the other build a Blacksmith Shop. Important
note: You should now have Farms encircling both your Town Center and Mill.
Remember make finished Berry Gatherers to farm. When you have enough Wood once
again, remove one villager from Woodchopping and build 2 Stables away from your
base towards the enemy. (Side note for the Rivers map: Instead of using a Wood
Chopper, use the villager that sneaked over the Shallows.) You should not have
to stay in the Feudal Age long, because as soon as your 5th Gold miner is
completed, you should (Hopefully.) have enough Gold and Food to advance to the
Castle Age. Click the Castle button.

Section 3 - The Castle Age

- Now is when the game can take 2 paths. 1. Rush the enemy with knights. 2. Go
to the Imperial Age and attack with a large force.

Path 1:

3.1 - Preparing Your Knight Rush

When Castle is reached, quickly queue at least 2 Knights in each Stable. (More,
providing you have the resources.) Save enough to research Scale Barding Armor
right away also. (This is to protect against any Spearmen/Pikemen.) Queue 5 more
villagers and set them again on Gold. There should be enough food for this.
Build another Stable in your town. Remember to rebuild Farms. Continue queuing
Knights. Whe you have 5-6, start moving towards the enemy. Now you must
concentrate completely on the task at hand: Attacking the enemy. Don't get
distracted rebuilding Farms in the battle.

3.2 - The Attack

Assuming you have scouted adequately, you should know the approximate location
of the enemy's Woodcutters or Gold Miners. Head your Knights toward either of
those areas. As soon as you get there, have your Knights attack any villagers
there. Split up the Knights to chase down individuals. If your opponent is any
good, he'll relize his peril and garrison his Town Center. Now, do not waste
time, attack the Town Center! When the Knights are there, queue more at your
Stable and place a waypoint on the enemy Town Center. Research Husbandry at the
Stable in your town, and research Forging, Chain Barding Armor, and Iron casting
at the Blacksmith when resources become available. (You may want to build a
second Blacksmith.) Continue pumping Knights onto the enemy Town Center. After
it falls, finish off the rest of his town, killing the once-garrisoned villagers
first. If you are playing 1 on 1, just hunt him/her down and end the game. If
you are playing a team game, it would be best to go Imperial (3.4), because the
other enemy will be to advanced to launch a knight rush on.

3.3 - Attack Difficulties

There are many factors that must be correct in order for the rush to be pulled
of correctly. Be aware of attacks on your Town Center attacking Knights at all
times. In the following section, I state the trouble, followed by the solution.
If I suggest removing your Knights from the area, follow through with the 2nd
Path.

a) Castle: This is not a big problem, unless it is near enough to the Town
Center to provide backup. If it is, the best way to go is to pull your Knights
out of the enemy town, unless he/she is sufficiently weak. Feel free to attack
the Castle if it's location does not apply to the above circumstance, because it
cannot attack units at it's base. (With the exception of Teuton.)

b) Spearmen: Most of the time, you can kill these pesky units. Just attack them
with muliple Knights. If there are more than 5 at a time, you are in trouble.
You should consider removing your Knights. If they are coming 1 at a time, they
should not be too much trouble.

c) Pikemen: This is a more serious problem than the Spearmen. The same rules
apply as Spearmen, except if there are 4 or more, pulling your knights out would
be best.

d) Other Knights: This as the potential to be a problem. If the enemy is a
better player than you, there may be more knights than you have. If your knights
are suffering heavy losses, remove your Knights from the enemy's town.

e) Mangudai: These guys really hurt. If they are there, it means a Castle is
also. If there are more than 3, it is best to leave.

f) Camels: The scourge of Knights. Same rules apply as Mangudai.

g) More than 1 garrisoned Town Center: This is hopeless. Get out of there fast.

h) Too many enemies in general: Basically the same advice as the previous
situations.

i) You are losing to many Knights: This can happen, and you need to be ready for
it. If there are only 2-3 Knights left and no immediate reinforcements, you are
not going to survive. Sending more will just get your Knights killed, because 2
at a time will not do enough damage at once to neutralize the Town Center.

Path 2:

3.4 - Getting To The Imperial Age

Build more villagers. Expand your base, building small sub-bases. (Side note for
the Rivers map: Use the villager on enemy land, and build a base! It will be
most useful later.) Maximize your economy. Get enough resources to go to the
Imperial Age. Building some Knights on the side would not be bad idea, just in
case a bold enemy decides to attack. Also, create a few Archery Ranges and
research the Crossbow, and Archer-benefiting upgrades. It will come in use
later. Click the Imperial Age button.

Section 4: The Imperial Age

4.1 - Preparing To Assault The Enemy

This section will be very general, because the game could have progressed many
different ways by this time. Continue to expand, be sure to upgrade to Plate
Barding Armor and Blast Furnace. Now, upgrade to Cavalier, and then Paladin.
Create about 10-15 villagers to mine Stone if you have not done so already.
Research Imperial Age Archer upgrades, and build approximately 30 Crossbowmen.
At the same time, (If resources allow) create a plethora of Paladins. Construct
a Castle at a strategic location, and build 3-5 Trebuchets.

4.2 - Launching Your Attack

Now you are ready to assault the enemies. Your Crossbowmen are intended to
eliminate enemy Knight-counter units. 30 Crossbowmen work very well, especially
against Camels. There is not much more to say, except use the Trebuchets to
remove Walls, Towers, and Castles. (Paladins also work well, don't be afraid to
use them against Castles and Towers.) Expand into conquered territory by
building Town Centers and Castles. Building a closer military base for backup is
a good thing also. Hopefully you will overrun the enemy.

This took awhile to write, as you can imagine, so please forgive errors or
confusing sentences, because I'm pretty tired out now.

Please comment on how to make it better, and any mistakes I've make.

Constructive criticizm is welcome.

~ AoErat

------------------
A Leader of the JKA Clan
www.jkaclan.org

[This message has been edited by AoErat (edited 03-03-2000).]

[This message has been edited by AoErat (edited 03-04-2000).]

Author Replies:

Chuppo
Forum Member posted 03-03-00 11:37 PM EDT (US)    1 / 18
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dang, that thing is long! Debating whether to read it or not...
------------------
It's coming. The AOKH Forumers' Keep. Be prepared...


Hyarmendacil
Forum Member posted 03-04-00 00:07 AM EDT (US)    2 / 18
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks, AoErat. I don't ever play Franks, but I see them all to often on the
opposing side of the map. Actually I believe you personally have killed me with
this strat before. Sort of an honor, I guess Now that I know how a good Frank
player sets up perhaps I can devise a better defense than my present one, which
mostly consists of getting beaten mercilessly. Actually, I do win occasionally
against the Franks, but when I do it is almost because they get forced back by a
castle rush. This normally doesn't kill them off, but if you can just knock them
back on their heels for a few minutes while you boom you may win. The problem
with this is that it depends upon getting a quicker castle than your opponent.
Unfortunately, I will play anyone, which means I sometimes find my self in games
against those significantly better than myself at castle speed. Do you have any
advice for me on how to deal with this?
------------------
Elbereth!


Andrewk113
Forum Member posted 03-04-00 01:06 AM EDT (US)    3 / 18
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I read it anyway... Sounds good. Keep up the good work
------------------
A n d r e w

[This message has been edited by Andrewk113 (edited 03-04-2000).]


ThanatoZ
posted 03-04-00 01:58 AM EDT (US)    4 / 18
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hm, VERY nice job on this strategy, it is excellently done.
However, one comment/question. Why attack their TC with knights? When doing
this, you will often lose 6-8 knights, and the opponent may sneak off another
villager to go build a TC elsewhere. Why not forward build on them and bring out
the rams? Also, this way you could add Xbows to your attack, making pikes/spears
not as much of a problem. A cheap forward castle can be fun too...

Anyway, just wondering on that. I have done a lot of knight rushes (but not with
franks) and usually the goal was not to completely END the game, just harass
resource gathering sites etc. Nice job however, it is excellently written, and a
good strategy.

ThanatoZ

------------------
The few, the brave, the proud, the last of the Mongol players.


OgaTunde
Forum Member posted 03-04-00 02:12 AM EDT (US)    5 / 18
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One question, and correct me if I am wrong.
In 1.1- The First Few Minutes: You have 1 vil build two houses and 2 vils start
a lumber camp after you have queued 4 from your TC. Maybe the seconds are not
important....but with this method you hold up production of vil #5 until the
first house is built.

If you use 2 vils to build the houses and 1 to build the lumber mill, you will
lose no time in vil production because the 2 can build a house before your first
queued vil pops out of the TC.

Granted....it is mere seconds, but to some it is important.

------------------
"If you don't believe in victory you have no business sitting down at a chess
board" - Anatoly Karpov
"For he today that sheds his blood with me, Shall be my Brother" - William
Shakespeare



Black Legion
Forum Member posted 03-04-00 02:44 AM EDT (US)    6 / 18
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is a very thoughtful and detailed strategy guide, indeed.
Keep up the good work, dude.


AoErat
HGS Cherub posted 03-04-00 09:00 AM EDT (US)    7 / 18
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks guys. (I just relized I forgot to add "Long" to the title)
Hyarmendacil: You many want to build Spearmen in Feudal if you know a rush is
coming. Also, Walls (Stone) stop a rush in it's tracks.

ThanatoZ: Thanks for the suggestion. The opponent will just about always sneak
some villager off, no matter what you do. If you attack the Town Center right
away, you have a better chance of killing more villagers. As for Rams and other
support units, If you have the resources, by all means, go for it! I've never
found myself in a situation like this, so I wouldn't know exactly what to do.
And, yes, this rush I meant to cripple the enemy, just killing him if you are
lucky. If the TC falls, he/she is dead unless theya re good enough to rebuild.
(I've observed that many people never completely rebuild, and as many of you
know, it is hard to do so after a devastating attack that wiped out your town.

OgaTunde: To tell the truth, I've never tried that before. But, when I get in a
game today I'll try it. Thanks very much for enlightening me.

Everyone else: Thanks for reading it!

~ AoErat


[This message has been edited by AoErat (edited 03-04-2000).]


Sharpener
Forum Member posted 03-04-00 11:07 AM EDT (US)    8 / 18
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Place your left hand finger on the "ctrl" button on your keyboard, and your
left hand on the mouse."
How am I supposed to do if i, humble human, only have one left hand?
Anyway, this strat seems fine to me!

But, if i understood well, you cannot hold a continuous villager flow, and i
personnally don't really think it is good to neglect other food resources like
deers or boars before going on farms.
I'm not really a rusher, so i can understand why you send the scout very early
to enemy lands. I usually make it reveal boars and deers and 8 sheep, and reveal
a bit more around the base to know where to place defense if needed, and then i
send it ot enemy land.



Sean Patterson
Forum Member posted 03-04-00 11:54 AM EDT (US)    9 / 18
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I like the startegy guide. A bit long but it was good. I like playing the franks
because that is the civ that I started out playing and have kept on going with
them. I am not that much of a rusher just because I can never seem to get enough
resources to kill/criple the computer. After reading this I can see where I am
missing my resources. What I try to do is send some of my first villigers to
build minning camps, both gold and stone. This takes away food so that I cannot
rush. I noticed this as I was reading this strategy. Thanks for the help.

AoErat
HGS Cherub posted 03-04-00 07:47 PM EDT (US)    10 / 18
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sharpener - I fixed the error. I personally think hunting is a waste of time
because it requires micromanagement. Does anyone else have input on the subject
of hunting?
Sean - Hope this helps.

~ AoErat

------------------
A Leader of the JKA Clan
www.jkaclan.org


Count Smirnov
Forum Member posted 03-05-00 09:16 AM EDT (US)    11 / 18
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I rarely hunt unless I draw Mongols or get one of those lucky map corners
infested with deer herds. However, I think boar luring is definately the way to
go and has a positive effect on your Castle Time.
If you're not familiar with the tactic, it goes like this: As your last sheep
start running out, send one of the shepherds off to hunt the wild boar. Let him
shoot two arrows at it then run him back to the TC. The boar will give chase and
probably hit your villie twice, but this is no problem as long as you keep him
moving. As the boar approachs your TC, command all the other shepherds to hunt
it. It will drop in 1-2 vollies right on the doorstep of your Town Center! Once
that boar starts to run out, send a different villie to lure the other one. The
trick is that the shepherds should run out of sheep just as the boar comes into
range. I will wait until the sheep are gone if I am unable to time it right, it
only costs a few seconds. If your ex-shepherds cannot kill the boar fast enough,
you may need to briefly garrison your hunter to prevent him from being killed.

BTW, how many villies do you put on sheep gathering? Just the initial four?


GhOsT2o0o
Forum Member posted 03-05-00 12:26 PM EDT (US)    12 / 18
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
hey aoerat do you mind if I post it on my site
[http://lordz.com/aoe2]


AoErat
HGS Cherub posted 03-06-00 02:09 PM EDT (US)    13 / 18
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Count Smirnov: Thanks alot for explaining how to efficiatly (sp) hunt Boar. I'm
going to try that in my next game. And yes, I only use the 4 inital villagers on
the sheep.
Ghost: No problem, as long as I get credit. (Give credit to JKA_AoErat)

~ AoErat


------------------
A Leader of the JKA Clan
www.jkaclan.org


dismal_science
Forum Member posted 03-06-00 02:52 PM EDT (US)    14 / 18
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
OK, some constructive criticism:
1)I think it's always a good idea to post approximate times when major events
should be occurring in a strat (e.g. feudal, castle times, time at which knights
hit enemy, etc.)

2) It seems to me there are a lot of things that will slow this strat down
versus other "rushes". Not saying they're bad to do, just slower.

Section 1:
- one builder on first house will cause delay
- early loom (not necessarily a bad idea but earlier = slower)
- only 4 on sheep won't sustain vil production
- early barracks built (building stuff earlier than you need it will slow you
down)
- very early use of farms over "free food" (will need more guys on wood)
- extra houses in dark

Section 2:
- use of resources on DB axe and mining upgrades
- 5 more vils adds 1+ minutes over market building time

Of these, the one that'll be critical to your castle time is the extra five vils
in feudal.

I can't imagine you get castle times much less than 20 mins with this strat, but
maybe i'm wrong (hence my first comment).

Against a good opponent you'll either be rushed before then or you'll definitely
run into some of those defenses you list in 3. Using Franks is like a red flag
that says "knight rush coming".




Nahshon
Forum Member posted 03-06-00 03:09 PM EDT (US)    15 / 18
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AOErat,
You have obviously put some work into this and you make some good points. I do
have some constructive criticism, if I may...

1) I start with my right hand over the "H" and my left holding down the "shift"
key. "H, (Shift)C" immediately cues 4 vills. Then work the scout.

2) You need to work on your start a bit so that you can maintain CONTINOUS
villie flow from the second the game starts. You will find that putting two
vills on a house immediately will solve the housing problem. Also, placing your
first 4-6 vills on sheep and your next 4-6 on berries (with a mill) will ensure
that you have enough food to maintain villie production. Start placing vills on
stragler trees at about #14-15 until you have enough wood to build a lumber
mill.

3) If you can keep your TC working continuously for the first 5-7 minutes (see
point #2), loom at around villie #20. Looming earlier leaves you with fewer
resources later.

4) Build your resource collection sites one tile AWAY from the resource. This
goes for wood, gold, stone, and berries. This way you can place 4-6 vills in
between the collection site with no walking time from resource to drop spot.

5) Don't worry about your mill being out in the open. By the time you start
farming everywhere, you should have several TCs to build farms around. It is
more important that the mill is placed so that your berry pickers can drop
resources quickly (see point 4). Note: Since you are now chopping those
straglers for wood (see point 2) the area around your TC will be clear to farm.

6) I would suggest waiting a little longer and sending TWO vills to wall up the
shallows. If the game is on hard or hardest setting, one vill will always die.
Two are safe (usually), if they are loomed.

7) Farming is good, but hunting is better. Boar do not take too much
micromanagment. And lag certainly does not rule it out. You can easily lure a
boar with lag once you get good at it. If you don't have the Loom upgrade yet,
it can be tricky, but still doable.

Also, you might try this strat with other civs. You may find that other civs
(chinese or even vikes) can do this faster and still effectively knight-rush
(even without the Frank bonus.)

You might want to read this strat on castling fast with Britons. The leading
strategies are getting to castle in less than 16:00.
www.mrfixitonline.com/readPosting.asp?PostingId=10010

Good luck!

------------------
Zone name: Nahshon
Email: Mr_Nahshon@hotmail.com


[This message has been edited by Nahshon (edited 03-06-2000).]


Count Smirnov
Forum Member posted 03-06-00 09:34 PM EDT (US)    16 / 18
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Er, you may have already worked this out, but four shepherds is probably too few
to safely pull off a boar lure. I usually have seven...

SimMayor
Forum Member posted 03-07-00 02:47 AM EDT (US)    17 / 18
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AoErat,
About the first lumber camp...
I simply don't get the idea of building a lumber camp as first building near the
closest trees.
There is no need for it so early. You don't know the map around your town well
enough for a reasonable placing of LC (specially arabia map is very troublesome
for first LC placing). You have to cut the stagglers first anyway to get space
for farms.
Please correct me if there is some idea behind building the lumber camp before
the mill.

my 100th post for AOK forum...

------------------
SimMayor - zone name APC_SIM
If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every
battle.(Sun Tzu)
www.geocities.com/~realsimmayor/aoe2index.html


[This message has been edited by SimMayor (edited 03-07-2000).]

[This message has been edited by SimMayor (edited 03-07-2000).]


Nahshon
Forum Member posted 03-07-00 11:16 AM EDT (US)    18 / 18
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Count Smirnov, 5 vills is enough to lure a boar. 1 to lure and 4 to kill. I know
this works if they are loomed. If not, maybe 6 would be best.
------------------
Zone name: Nahshon
Email: Mr_Nahshon@hotmail.com


-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
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-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

- Jeff "CJayC" Veasey and GameFAQs (http://www.gamefaqs.com) for posting my FAQs.

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| 12. http://www.psxcodez.com                                                  |
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